Maladaptive Daydreaming and Dissociation. Cortisol Response? HPA Axis Dysfunction?

[sleepless1]

I suffer from maladaptive daydreaming and dissociation.I feel like I am sleep walking through life, or living in an empty shell with no connection to my 5 senses, and no self-awareness. Days slip by in what feels like minutes. I am constantly lost in my daydreams, which take the form of teaching, or talking to someone, etc.

Co-morbilities: ADD, dissociation. I read that maladaptive daydreaming/dissociation is also a symptom of OCD, but I have no other OCD symptoms. I believe that I have PTSD as well.The traumatic experience that set off my dissociation was a bad experience smoking marijuana in my teens. I had a horrible reaction, cold sweats, prostrated and shaking uncontrollably on the floor, vomiting, vertigo, and fear and panic pulsating throughout my body like I never felt before. After calling an ambulance and being brought to the emergency room some sadistic doctor screamed at me hysterically for smoking marijuanna then locked me in a dark room for the entire night to presumably "teach me a lesson". That night took something out of me and I have been living in a fog ever since. Detached. No self-awareness.

After reading this thread:

Cortisol And The Five Senses

I was diagnosed with dissociation about six months ago. In trauma research, dissociation is always a byproduct of trauma and therefore seen in PTSD, CPTSD, and some other personality disorders with trauma at their root. So what is dissociation? It's kind of an enigma, but the best description...

raypeatforum.com

I took propranolol, theanine, and magnesium and started to feel human again. This is a feeling that I have not felt in years!

Anyways, propranol causes a brain-block for me, so it is unsustainable to take long term. I am currently in school. I believe the poster of that thread is correct that this is cortisol related. What else can I try?

Currently taking: propranolol, magnesium, theanine, pregnenolone.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I suffer from maladaptive daydreaming and dissociation.I feel like I am sleep walking through life, or living in an empty shell with no connection to my 5 senses, and no self-awareness. Days slip by in what feels like minutes. I am constantly lost in my daydreams, which take the form of teaching, or talking to someone, etc.

Co-morbilities: ADD, dissociation. I read that maladaptive daydreaming/dissociation is also a symptom of OCD, but I have no other OCD symptoms. I believe that I have PTSD as well.The traumatic experience that set off my dissociation was a bad experience smoking marijuana in my teens. I had a horrible reaction, cold sweats, prostrated and shaking uncontrollably on the floor, vomiting, vertigo, and fear and panic pulsating throughout my body like I never felt before. After calling an ambulance and being brought to the emergency room some sadistic doctor screamed at me hysterically for smoking marijuanna then locked me in a dark room for the entire night to presumably "teach me a lesson". That night took something out of me and I have been living in a fog ever since. Detached. No self-awareness.

After reading this thread:

Cortisol And The Five Senses

I was diagnosed with dissociation about six months ago. In trauma research, dissociation is always a byproduct of trauma and therefore seen in PTSD, CPTSD, and some other personality disorders with trauma at their root. So what is dissociation? It's kind of an enigma, but the best description...

raypeatforum.com

I took propranolol, theanine, and magnesium and started to feel human again. This is a feeling that I have not felt in years!

Anyways, propranol causes a brain-block for me, so it is unsustainable to take long term. I am currently in school. I believe the poster of that thread is correct that this is cortisol related. What else can I try?

Currently taking: propranolol, magnesium, theanine, pregnenolone.

I have no advice to give you, but I do want to say I feel sad for what happened to you as a teen. I hope your thread gets some responses that get you to a better place.

 

[redsun]

I suffer from maladaptive daydreaming and dissociation.I feel like I am sleep walking through life, or living in an empty shell with no connection to my 5 senses, and no self-awareness. Days slip by in what feels like minutes. I am constantly lost in my daydreams, which take the form of teaching, or talking to someone, etc.

Co-morbilities: ADD, dissociation. I read that maladaptive daydreaming/dissociation is also a symptom of OCD, but I have no other OCD symptoms. I believe that I have PTSD as well.The traumatic experience that set off my dissociation was a bad experience smoking marijuana in my teens. I had a horrible reaction, cold sweats, prostrated and shaking uncontrollably on the floor, vomiting, vertigo, and fear and panic pulsating throughout my body like I never felt before. After calling an ambulance and being brought to the emergency room some sadistic doctor screamed at me hysterically for smoking marijuanna then locked me in a dark room for the entire night to presumably "teach me a lesson". That night took something out of me and I have been living in a fog ever since. Detached. No self-awareness.

After reading this thread:

Cortisol And The Five Senses

I was diagnosed with dissociation about six months ago. In trauma research, dissociation is always a byproduct of trauma and therefore seen in PTSD, CPTSD, and some other personality disorders with trauma at their root. So what is dissociation? It's kind of an enigma, but the best description...

raypeatforum.com

I took propranolol, theanine, and magnesium and started to feel human again. This is a feeling that I have not felt in years!

Anyways, propranol causes a brain-block for me, so it is unsustainable to take long term. I am currently in school. I believe the poster of that thread is correct that this is cortisol related. What else can I try?

Currently taking: propranolol, magnesium, theanine, pregnenolone.

I have some research you can look at on this topic.

I attached one article PDF and if you are interesting in reading it yourself you can but I will summarize it for you as well.

Summary:
They observed no relationship between urinary or plasma cortisol levels and severity of dissociation. This below is a direct quote from the pdf:

"Within the dissociative group there was a very strong association between increasing dissociation severity and declining norepinephrine, independent of anxiety; indeed dissociation and anxiety were not intercorrelated. We speculate that this noradrenergic blunting might partly explain the hypoarousal, attentional difficulties and short-term memory deficits characteristic of depersonalization (Guralnik et al., 2000). Our finding is in good accordance with other reports describing autonomic physiologic blunting in dissociation (Griffin et al., 1997; Sierra et al., 2002). The present finding is also very similar to the single published study, to our knowledge, which has examined norepinephrine and dissociation (Delahanty et al., 2003). This study found that in the immediate aftermath of motor vehicle accidents, 15-h urinary norepinephrine was inversely correlated to the severity of peritraumatic dissociation."

This study showed that thyroid hormone enhanced tyrosine hydroxylase activity in the adrenals and the locus coeruleus (the major source if noradrenergic neurotransmission in the CNS):

Influence of the thyroid hormone status on tyrosie hydroxylase in central and peripheral catecholaminergic structures

We investigated the effect of hyper- and hypothyroidism on tyrosine hydroxylase protein concentration in the locus coeruleus (divided into anterior an…

www.sciencedirect.com

" Rats were made hypothyroid with propylthiouracile (PTU), 0.02% in drinkin water for 21 days) or hyperthyroid by thyroxine injection (100 or 250 μg/kg/day), for 3 or 17 days. PTU treatment resulted in a statistically significant decrease of tyrosine hydroxylase in the anterior locus coeruleus (−13%) and the adrenals (−14%). After thyroxine treatment, in the anterior locus coeruleus, tyrosine hydroxylase was significantly higher (2 way ANOVA) after the 3 day treatment than after the 17 day treatment: tyrosine hydroxylase showed a trend to increase after the 3 day treatment (+20% with the 250 μg/kg dose) and to decrease after the 17 day treatment (−15% with the 250 μg/kg dose). In the adrenals, tyrosine hydroxylase was increased by the 3 day treatment (+42% after the 250 μg/kg dose), but this increase was not observed after 17 days of treatment."


"Together, our results support the hypothesis that in the anterior locus coeruleus and in the adrenals tyrosine hydroxylase level is positively modulated by thyroid hormones."

Basically the whole premise behind dissociation is hypoarousal. The locus coeruleus is a major brain structure that is necessary to maintain normal levels of arousal, and is dependent heavily on copper. The structure itself if you were to open the brain is literally blue due to the high concentration of copper. Thyroid hormone has a permissive effect on the catecholamines and enhances their effects. Low noradrenaline is also associated with ADD and OCD and like we discussed a little while ago because ritalin doesnt enhance NE that much and enhances dopamine way more in comparison it actually makes you worse. Amphetamine salts have been shown in research to improve dissociation, likely because they are strong NE enhancers.

I think it will benefit you to trial 2 mg of copper bisglycinate and 150-300 mcg of iodine daily to see if this improves your dissociation.

 

[sleepless1]

I have some research you can look at on this topic.

I attached one article PDF and if you are interesting in reading it yourself you can but I will summarize it for you as well.

Summary:
They observed no relationship between urinary or plasma cortisol levels and severity of dissociation. This below is a direct quote from the pdf:

"Within the dissociative group there was a very strong association between increasing dissociation severity and declining norepinephrine, independent of anxiety; indeed dissociation and anxiety were not intercorrelated. We speculate that this noradrenergic blunting might partly explain the hypoarousal, attentional difficulties and short-term memory deficits characteristic of depersonalization (Guralnik et al., 2000). Our finding is in good accordance with other reports describing autonomic physiologic blunting in dissociation (Griffin et al., 1997; Sierra et al., 2002). The present finding is also very similar to the single published study, to our knowledge, which has examined norepinephrine and dissociation (Delahanty et al., 2003). This study found that in the immediate aftermath of motor vehicle accidents, 15-h urinary norepinephrine was inversely correlated to the severity of peritraumatic dissociation."

This study showed that thyroid hormone enhanced tyrosine hydroxylase activity in the adrenals and the locus coeruleus (the major source if noradrenergic neurotransmission in the CNS):

Influence of the thyroid hormone status on tyrosie hydroxylase in central and peripheral catecholaminergic structures

We investigated the effect of hyper- and hypothyroidism on tyrosine hydroxylase protein concentration in the locus coeruleus (divided into anterior an…

www.sciencedirect.com

" Rats were made hypothyroid with propylthiouracile (PTU), 0.02% in drinkin water for 21 days) or hyperthyroid by thyroxine injection (100 or 250 μg/kg/day), for 3 or 17 days. PTU treatment resulted in a statistically significant decrease of tyrosine hydroxylase in the anterior locus coeruleus (−13%) and the adrenals (−14%). After thyroxine treatment, in the anterior locus coeruleus, tyrosine hydroxylase was significantly higher (2 way ANOVA) after the 3 day treatment than after the 17 day treatment: tyrosine hydroxylase showed a trend to increase after the 3 day treatment (+20% with the 250 μg/kg dose) and to decrease after the 17 day treatment (−15% with the 250 μg/kg dose). In the adrenals, tyrosine hydroxylase was increased by the 3 day treatment (+42% after the 250 μg/kg dose), but this increase was not observed after 17 days of treatment."


"Together, our results support the hypothesis that in the anterior locus coeruleus and in the adrenals tyrosine hydroxylase level is positively modulated by thyroid hormones."

Basically the whole premise behind dissociation is hypoarousal. The locus coeruleus is a major brain structure that is necessary to maintain normal levels of arousal, and is dependent heavily on copper. The structure itself if you were to open the brain is literally blue due to the high concentration of copper. Thyroid hormone has a permissive effect on the catecholamines and enhances their effects. Low noradrenaline is also associated with ADD and OCD and like we discussed a little while ago because ritalin doesnt enhance NE that much and enhances dopamine way more in comparison it actually makes you worse. Amphetamine salts have been shown in research to improve dissociation, likely because they are strong NE enhancers.

I think it will benefit you to trial 2 mg of copper bisglycinate and 150-300 mcg of iodine daily to see if this improves your dissociation.

I'll try copper and Iodine.I do take a multivitamin 4 times daily so I doubt that I am deficit.

Also, I came across another study that basically said the same thing as your study, which was that high cortisol was not detected in dissociation, and low cortisol showed a bigger correlation. I read another study that said propranol had no effect on cortisol as well, but it does lower noradrenaline. Propranol makes me feel alive, contray to that study. So what effect is propranol having in bringing me to self awareness?

I did try thyroid for 6 months. It had no effect.

 

[redsun]

I'll try copper and Iodine.I do take a multivitamin 4 times daily so I doubt that I am deficit.

Also, I came across another study that basically said the same thing as your study, which was that high cortisol was not detected in dissociation, and low cortisol showed a bigger correlation. I read another study that said propranol had no effect on cortisol as well, but it does lower noradrenaline. Propranol makes me feel alive, contray to that study. So what effect is propranol having in bringing me to self awareness?

I did try thyroid for 6 months. It had no effect.

Propranolol blocks beta receptors. Its mainly adrenaline that binds to beta receptors. While noradrenaline can bind to beta receptors, it has higher affinity for alpha receptors, which are where most of the effects of norepinephrine come from in the brain. Propranolol is also a weak NET inhibitor which increases norepinephrine levels in the synapse. Since its blocking beta receptors, the NET inhibition will lead to mostly enhanced alpha receptor activity. So propranolol actually slightly enhances noradrenaline activity despite the beta blockade.

You are taking a multivitamin 4x a day? Whats the brand? Can you link?

 

[sleepless1]

Propranolol blocks beta receptors. Its mainly adrenaline that binds to beta receptors. While noradrenaline can bind to beta receptors, it has higher affinity for alpha receptors, which are where most of the effects of norepinephrine come from in the brain. Propranolol is also a weak NET inhibitor which increases norepinephrine levels in the synapse. Since its blocking beta receptors, the NET inhibition will lead to mostly enhanced alpha receptor activity. So propranolol actually slightly enhances noradrenaline activity despite the beta blockade.

You are taking a multivitamin 4x a day? Whats the brand? Can you link?

I take this multivitamin.

So what supplement or drug should I try in place of Propranolol? It is the only thing I've tried that brings me to self-awareness, aware of my 5 senses, but it really affects my memory and ability to recall information and I am already struggling in school so I cannot take it.

Edit:

Effect of Propranolol on Functional Connectivity in Autism Spectrum Disorder—A Pilot Study

A decrease in interaction between brain regions is observed in individuals with autism spectrum disorder (ASD), which is believed to be related to restricted neural network access in ASD. Propranolol, a beta-adrenergic antagonist, has revealed benefit ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This study shows that Propranolol affects sensory information, specifically in autism. Maybe my dissociation is in fact related to a sub-type of autism? I used to get really bad social anxiety, and looking at the ground to block out everything around me, and wearing headphones, made it better. I always suspected sensory overload, and my brain's inability to process it all at once, was triggering the panic attack.

 

[redsun]

I take this one multivitamin.

So what supplement or drug should I try in place of Propranolol? It works amazingly in bringing me to self-awareness, but really affects my memory and ability to recall information.

Ok so just to clarify you are taking 4 capsules a day where the serving size is 6 capsules?

Yeh so this multivitamin doesn't look too bad but one major issue that makes it terrible. You are taking toxic amounts of B6 as P5P from this multivitamin by the way even though you are only take 4 capsules. This very high amount of B6 constantly forces conversion of glutamate to GABA in high quantities in your neurons. Excess GABA can contribute to hypoarousal and will also lower norepinephrine levels. How long have you been taking this? Just because of how much B6 is in it, I would not take it at all. Its really strange that this multivitamin would otherwise be very balanced and then B6 amount is insane.

This amount of B6 can be blocking any beneficial stimulant effect heavily from any drug you take and the beneficial minerals that would otherwise enhance norepinephrine because it raises GABA insanely in these doses. This will also compromise cognition which is very dependent on glutamate. You likely have very high blood B6 levels as well which can cause symptoms. I would stop this multivitamin cold and look for one that has normal RDA levels of all vitamins and minerals. Vitamins can have very powerful and sometimes negative effects at high doses especially B6.

Stop the multi and then just take some copper and iodine for a week. This may be enough to cause a marked improvement in your symptoms because the B6 overload may really contributing to your issue. Adderall or equivalent are strong norepinephrine enhancers. So if you can switch to those for your ADD it would work well. I assume thats the easiest thing for you to do.

There is also bupropion and reboxetine. Buproprion has slight dopamine enhancing properties but is most a norepinephrine enhancer. Reboxetine is mostly a norepinephrine enhancer and only has very weak effects on other monoamines. Clomipramine which is also approved for OCD is a tricyclic which enhances serotonin and norepinephrine mostly. All these drugs either enhance cognition or at least generally do not worsen it.

 

[success23]

Sleep apnea or sleep deprivation?

 

[Peachy]

I was also wondering if you’re getting enough sleep.

Daydreaming can be helped by practice. Staying present for an hour at a time. (Or 15 minutes, whatever you need.)

Blow up a balloon and bounce it up over and over, keeping it off the floor. I do this with my kids for mindfulness. Cleaning is also really grounding.

 

[honey]

Possibly high serotonin and/or estrogen? I used to get major dissociation and depersonalization when I was on birth control, highly stressed, smoking weed, and undereating. What's really helped me is getting off the poison pill, praying and asking God for help and guidance, eating enough, thyroid, progesterone, liver + oysters, and smoking less weed. I also feel autistic (I'm not) some days and kinda know that my serotonin is higher probably from something I ate not reacting well in my intestines. The feeling goes away once I have better bowel movements.

 

[honey]

Have you checked out Constantine's substack? Some really great info on there.
https://constantinek.substack.com/p/adhd-a-paradoxically-low-energy-state
https://constantinek.substack.com/p/obsessions-and-compulsions