Major Question Regarding Peat's Ideas About Cortisol, Sleep, Health!

[Brother John]

First off I think Ray Peat is a very valuable resource and a first class thinker. However I cannot at this time agree with his conclusions in the following areas: "Sleep is Stressful". Sleep is restorative. Systems shut down for a reason and it follows that repair processes need less activity going on to get the body ready for a new day. Sure if you had horrible nightmares during the sleep it could be stressful.... but otherwise no, Sleep is needed and one of the ultimate stressors is sleep deprivation. That will lead to death in a few days.. Sleep is restful and restorative and the Opposite of stressful imho.
Ray's conclusion that sleep is a stressor because there is a rise of Cortisol in the morning is so !@#$%^&*(. WHAT?????? How about this idea: Cortisol has a beneficial effects for switching from a sleep metabolism to a waking metabolic, both mentally and physically??

I have read the book "Safe uses of Cortisol" By William Jefferies. He was a pioneer during the discovery of Cortisol around WW2 and was witness to it's over use and the horrible side effects OVERUSE caused. I don't have the book now, (I loaned it out doncha know). In the book he mentioned that of all the hormones, a LACK of cortisol will kill you in a few hours. No other hormone is so immediate in the effects of it's removal. He recommended low dose cortisol therapy for a number of problems. As I said I don't have the book or I could go into more detail.

So getting simple here: Cortisol is a life sustaining hormone. Too much of anything seems to be a bad idea but here in this forum and in RP's writing it seems a huge objective is to Lower Cortisol. There is close to zero mention of the Essential Need for cortisol. Or how to Raise it if needed in a health minded way.

Please no flames on this. In the search for truth flames don't often help.
I would however appreciate ideas and explanations on the questions I have raised.
Sincerely,
Brother John

 

[charlie]

Where has Ray Peat said that "sleep is stressful"?

I have seen him say "darkness" is stressful.

 

[Brother John]

Hmmmmmm You may be exactly correct. However sleep without darkness is much more difficult as blue light interferes with circadian cycles and you get darkness when you remove daylight and that darkness is needed for sleep.... So Sleep and Darkness go together and the idea that darkness is stressful because of cortisol ahhh how bout re reading the post?

 

[X3CyO]

Throughout history until as of late, humans have slept next to red light: fire, torch, lamp, candle, incandescent.

I believe this is what made humans have a biphasic sleep cycle due to sugar depletion and also the need to keep fires active to keep warm. That and to scare away potential predators. Fire back then was a major stress reliever.


Only recently has humanity turned towards a complete darkness approach, and as such, can cause nightmares in children.
I remember originally when my old incandescent nightlight would go out as a kid, it was immediately correlated with nightmares.


Just an observation that popped into my head a few nights ago; also purely a study of 1.


Progesterone is released in the face of stress, and when that runs out, cortisol is released instead from what I understand.

Thusly, I personally consider it to be a stress hormone, albeit constructive and promoting resilience versus cortisol which is more catabolic.



I think youve got the right idea in mind as a lot of gurus and people on the internet view inflammation as bad instead of a catalyst for growth.

Sleep definitely is restorative. Pure darkness; im not sure.

I wonder if this redlight at night was a hindrance, or a major player in brain growth during evolution.

Love to hear more on the topic.

 

[Pet Peeve]

I thought the idea was that darkness is stressful, so you sleep during darkness to avoid the stress. At the same time I started taking regular naps from 30 minutes to 4 hours under a 500 ir lamp and now it feels less right to sleep in darkness.

 

[Brother John]

Thanks Pet Peeve and x3cyo. Perhaps I need to restate my disagreement with RP. He appears to see Cortisol as primarily a Bad thing. Yet it is essential to life. Darkness causes Cortisol rise or does sleep. I'll bet my 10 buck that its sleep and if that rise doesn't happen... problems. I can easily see that excess anything is bad but having Cortisol is Good and excess is bad. So just willy nilly reduction of cortisol can be a bad idea. Yes??
The basic question I would like to know is What possible Good comes from the high cortisol in the morningS??

 

[paymanz]

Yes exactly ray said sleep is protective against darkness stress.

But you may become short of glycogen storage during last hours of night sleep which cause cortisol respond.its 8-9 h of fasting,it depends how good you are at storing large amount of glycogen.

And other stress hormones during night sleep like PTH are result of darkness ,and not of sleep.

 

[Pet Peeve]

So getting simple here: Cortisol is a life sustaining hormone. Too much of anything seems to be a bad idea but here in this forum and in RP's writing it seems a huge objective is to Lower Cortisol. There is close to zero mention of the Essential Need for cortisol. Or how to Raise it if needed in a health minded way.

If you raise cortisol through medication or supplements or whatever, you might feel the best you have ever felt in your entire life - for a year or two, until you crash and burn. That's when you come to raypeatforum. Sustainable energy and joy of life should come from a healthy thyroid function and oxidative metabolism of sugar.

 

[Brother John]

If you raise cortisol through medication or supplements or whatever, you might feel the best you have ever felt in your entire life - for a year or two, until you crash and burn. That's when you come to raypeatforum. Sustainable energy and joy of life should come from a healthy thyroid function and oxidative metabolism of sugar.

ONE size fits everyone??? Man are you nuts? If your cortisol is trashed then Not fixing it is death or disease or disfunction... Fixing around it, i.e. thyroid etc is sure to help but the subject is not about thyroid... it's about the importance of life sustaining cortisol and darkness/sleep as stressful or not.
Thanks for you interest but no thanks for such a shortsighted reply.
Sincerely,
Brother John

 

[Pet Peeve]

What do you want to know exactly?

 

[X3CyO]

ONE size fits everyone??? Man are you nuts? If your cortisol is trashed then Not fixing it is death or disease or disfunction... Fixing around it, i.e. thyroid etc is sure to help but the subject is not about thyroid... it's about the importance of life sustaining cortisol and darkness/sleep as stressful or not.
Thanks for you interest but no thanks for such a shortsighted reply.
Sincerely,
Brother John

If youre asking for anyone here to fight for cortisol in a positive light other than the fact that its good as an emergency source of turning muscle into sugar, then you probably wont find much.

As stated in my other post, progesterone is the positive stand in hormone for cortisol. I reccomend reading some of peats articles surrounding stress hormones and progesterone.

Your reasoning is sound, but I think misdirected.


Are you using exogenous cortisol? Do you have addisons?

Your responses seem... stressed out.

 

[Brother John]

If youre asking for anyone here to fight for cortisol in a positive light other than the fact that its good as an emergency source of turning muscle into sugar, then you probably wont find much.

As stated in my other post, progesterone is the positive stand in hormone for cortisol. I reccomend reading some of peats articles surrounding stress hormones and progesterone.

Your reasoning is sound, but I think misdirected.


Are you using exogenous cortisol? Do you have addisons?

Your responses seem... stressed out.

Yes exactly ray said sleep is protective against darkness stress.

But you may become short of glycogen storage during last hours of night sleep which cause cortisol respond.its 8-9 h of fasting,it depends how good you are at storing large amount of glycogen.

OK so far no one has addressed the basic idea of cortisol being essential for life. I know of no study,(I'll read it if it exists) that shows that cortisol is not needed and progesterone will suffice. Cortisol not only rises in the morning but stays higher all day, tapering down to evening levels and lowest during sleep as I remember... Where did you find that PTH is caused by darkness and not sleep. I personally like darkness, it's not a stress for me. That might mean that some have a stress experience with darkness, others don't and therefore a different hormonal response.

You asked:
"Are you using exogenous cortisol? Do you have addison?" No and No

As far as a stressed out response: Your statement about sugar and thyroid was so simplistic, cavalier etc that yeah, it did cause a stress response! But thanks for participating.

Yes I understand that lack of glycogen is said to result in increased cortisol. But what is cortisol doing aside from stress responses? Why is it so necessary? That topic I do not see RP or anyone on this site addressing... and it really does interest me. I have seen some posters mention that if they reduce cortisol too much they get knee pains. I have experienced that too I think. I wonder if there are other gauges or non lab markers that we can used to ascertain cortisol healthy levels?
Thanks for contributions,
Brother John

And other stress hormones during night sleep like PTH are result of darkness ,and not of sleep.

What do you want to know exactly?

 

[X3CyO]

"In experiments, progesterone was found to be the basic hormone of adaptation and of resistance to stress. The adrenal glands use it to produce their antistress hormones, and when there is enough progesterone, they don't have to produce the potentially harmful cortisol. In a progesterone deficiency, we produce too much cortisol, and excessive cortisol causes osteoporosis, aging of the skin, damage to brain cells, and the accumulation of fat, especially on the back and abdomen."

Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone


I see kind of where youre coming from. Cortisol is usually never completely 0, and when it gets too close, it leads to sore joints. Same an be said about estrogen. Why is this? Because of this, does cortisol serve a higher purpose through its mostly negative supposed actions?

Thats a good question, and there are currently multiple awnsers as low cortisol which is also usually low estrogen, are unique cases.

Some say it is overaction of androgens, and thus high turnover rates of bone and synthesis of collagen.
Usually raised dht is associated with these conditions as well, which raises adrenaline, which leads to the usual supposed lack of ability to maintain an erection. Some adapt to this over time.

It can also be due to the corresponding vasoconstriction and diuretic factors of dht and progesterone.

It can be caused by the rapid conversion of cholesterol into said androgens, leading to a drop in cholesterol akin to hyperthyroidism.

It can also be due to SHBG, which I havent heard peat speak of much either.

It can also be dmso if used.

Usually this is all associated with a high metabolism which also can push the body into lipolysis, and high androgens are associated thusly with low body fat. PUFAs are supposedly considered to be the deepest saved fat in the body. Removal of PUFA from the body in a rapid manner can lead to inflammation; usually joint pain.

Just looks like with these more advanced questions will just come more questions as the body runs much faster, and requires more of everything to maintain that.


Maybe haidut will have something to say.



Hope you find your answer Brother John

 

[Brother John]

"In experiments, progesterone was found to be the basic hormone of adaptation and of resistance to stress. The adrenal glands use it to produce their antistress hormones, and when there is enough progesterone, they don't have to produce the potentially harmful cortisol. In a progesterone deficiency, we produce too much cortisol, and excessive cortisol causes osteoporosis, aging of the skin, damage to brain cells, and the accumulation of fat, especially on the back and abdomen."

Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone


I see kind of where youre coming from. Cortisol is usually never completely 0, and when it gets too close, it leads to sore joints. Same an be said about estrogen. Why is this? Because of this, does cortisol serve a higher purpose through its mostly negative supposed actions?



Thats a good question, and there are currently multiple awnsers as low cortisol which is also usually low estrogen, are unique cases.

Some say it is overaction of androgens, and thus high turnover rates of bone and synthesis of collagen.
Usually raised dht is associated with these conditions as well, which raises adrenaline, which leads to the usual supposed lack of ability to maintain an erection. Some adapt to this over time.

It can also be due to the corresponding vasoconstriction and diuretic factors of dht and progesterone.

It can be caused by the rapid conversion of cholesterol into said androgens, leading to a drop in cholesterol akin to hyperthyroidism.

It can also be due to SHBG, which I havent heard peat speak of much either.

It can also be dmso if used.

Usually this is all associated with a high metabolism which also can push the body into lipolysis, and high androgens are associated thusly with low body fat. PUFAs are supposedly considered to be the deepest saved fat in the body. Removal of PUFA from the body in a rapid manner can lead to inflammation; usually joint pain.

Just looks like with these more advanced questions will just come more questions as the body runs much faster, and requires more of everything to maintain that.
Maybe haidut will have something to say.



Hope you find your answer Brother John

X3 Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts. I read
"Safe uses of Cortisol" By William Jefferies more than a decade ago. It was a bit like reading what Ray says about various substances and hormones and incredible lack of information and the great amount of misinformation about these things. Jeffries was so disgusted by what happened with cortisol: Basically the hormone was seen as a panacea and overused with horrific consequences and the rebound or pushback was the normal thing of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Most of todays treatments with "cortisol" don't actually use cortisol, but rather patented synthetic analogs...sound familiar? Jeffries was adamant that some people run low on cortisol and that Low dose cortisol treatment, not prednisone etc etc can really help people. The symptoms that you and Pet Peeve mentioned that too much cortisol can produce was why Jeffries wrote the book... He knew Drs were still very ignorant about how to use this powerful hormone and they thought they could use analogs and in his view this is wrong for any long term use. Pet P talked about using "it"for a couple of years and then all hell breaking loose. Yeah he is right if it's analogs are used inappropriately or even cortisol itself but that's as far as I think his knowledge goes. (Mine doesn't go a whole lot further but at least I've read a book by an original expert on the subject)
Because it is a life sustaining hormone.. dig it, you are dead in hours without cortisol... Not months with out some hormones and years without others.... How many reading this ever heard of that??? I'm not saying believe me cause I said it. Study a bit deeper maybe. I would love to hear RP speak on the subject but I feel like he is bombarded right now with questions so I thought I would try here first.
Yes it would be great if Haidut responds to this thread.
Thanks,
Brother John

 

[Brother John]

"In experiments, progesterone was found to be the basic hormone of adaptation and of resistance to stress. The adrenal glands use it to produce their antistress hormones, and when there is enough progesterone, they don't have to produce the potentially harmful cortisol. In a progesterone deficiency, we produce too much cortisol, and excessive cortisol causes osteoporosis, aging of the skin, damage to brain cells, and the accumulation of fat, especially on the back and abdomen."

Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone


I see kind of where youre coming from. Cortisol is usually never completely 0, and when it gets too close, it leads to sore joints. Same an be said about estrogen. Why is this? Because of this, does cortisol serve a higher purpose through its mostly negative supposed actions?

Thats a good question, and there are currently multiple awnsers as low cortisol which is also usually low estrogen, are unique cases.

Some say it is overaction of androgens, and thus high turnover rates of bone and synthesis of collagen.
Usually raised dht is associated with these conditions as well, which raises adrenaline, which leads to the usual supposed lack of ability to maintain an erection. Some adapt to this over time.

It can also be due to the corresponding vasoconstriction and diuretic factors of dht and progesterone.

It can be caused by the rapid conversion of cholesterol into said androgens, leading to a drop in cholesterol akin to hyperthyroidism.

It can also be due to SHBG, which I havent heard peat speak of much either.

It can also be dmso if used.

Usually this is all associated with a high metabolism which also can push the body into lipolysis, and high androgens are associated thusly with low body fat. PUFAs are supposedly considered to be the deepest saved fat in the body. Removal of PUFA from the body in a rapid manner can lead to inflammation; usually joint pain.

Just looks like with these more advanced questions will just come more questions as the body runs much faster, and requires more of everything to maintain that.


Maybe haidut will have something to say.



Hope you find your answer Brother John

Also just re read RP's article on Progesterone. It appears to entirely be for women. IF you can find a part in there that mentions "male" or ""men" I would like to know. On the other hand he mentions women over and over...

 

[Brother John]

"In experiments, progesterone was found to be the basic hormone of adaptation and of resistance to stress. The adrenal glands use it to produce their antistress hormones, and when there is enough progesterone, they don't have to produce the potentially harmful cortisol. In a progesterone deficiency, we produce too much cortisol, and excessive cortisol causes osteoporosis, aging of the skin, damage to brain cells, and the accumulation of fat, especially on the back and abdomen."

Progesterone Summaries - Progesterone Deceptions - Progesterone Supplementation - Dosage of Progesterone


I see kind of where youre coming from. Cortisol is usually never completely 0, and when it gets too close, it leads to sore joints. Same an be said about estrogen. Why is this? Because of this, does cortisol serve a higher purpose through its mostly negative supposed actions?

Thats a good question, and there are currently multiple awnsers as low cortisol which is also usually low estrogen, are unique cases.

Some say it is overaction of androgens, and thus high turnover rates of bone and synthesis of collagen.
Usually raised dht is associated with these conditions as well, which raises adrenaline, which leads to the usual supposed lack of ability to maintain an erection. Some adapt to this over time.

It can also be due to the corresponding vasoconstriction and diuretic factors of dht and progesterone.

It can be caused by the rapid conversion of cholesterol into said androgens, leading to a drop in cholesterol akin to hyperthyroidism.

It can also be due to SHBG, which I havent heard peat speak of much either.

It can also be dmso if used.

Usually this is all associated with a high metabolism which also can push the body into lipolysis, and high androgens are associated thusly with low body fat. PUFAs are supposedly considered to be the deepest saved fat in the body. Removal of PUFA from the body in a rapid manner can lead to inflammation; usually joint pain.

Just looks like with these more advanced questions will just come more questions as the body runs much faster, and requires more of everything to maintain that.


Maybe haidut will have something to say.



Hope you find your answer Brother John

In fact this is what RP says regarding Progesterone and men:
It is important to emphasize that progesterone is not just the hormone of pregnancy. To use it only “to protect the uterus” would be like telling a man he doesn't need testosterone if he doesn't plan to father children, except that progesterone is of far greater and more basic physiological significance than testosterone. While men do naturally produce progesterone, and can sometimes benefit from using it, it is not a male hormone. Some people get that impression, because some physicians recommend combining estrogen with either testosterone or progesterone, to protect against some of estrogen's side effects, but progesterone is the body's natural complement to estrogen. Used alone, progesterone often makes it unnecessary to use estrogen for hot flashes or insomnia, or other symptoms of menopause.

 

[encerent]

He says sleep protects against the stress of darkness.

 

[DaveFoster]

I thought the idea was that darkness is stressful, so you sleep during darkness to avoid the stress. At the same time I started taking regular naps from 30 minutes to 4 hours under a 500 ir lamp and now it feels less right to sleep in darkness.

Whoa, wait a second. How's that going? Did you require an adjustment period?

 

[DaveFoster]

Cortisol is usually never completely 0, and when it gets too close, it leads to sore joints. Same an be said about estrogen. Why is this? Because of this, does cortisol serve a higher purpose through its mostly negative supposed actions?

Dr. Peat thinks that low cortisol is solely responsible for sore joints; estrogen doesn't play a role in his view.

 

[Brother John]

Dr. Peat thinks that low cortisol is solely responsible for sore joints; estrogen doesn't play a role in his view.

Dave, could you post a link for where RP speaks of this?
Thanks for your post
Brother John