Magnesium Supplementation, Lowering Mood

[Deleted member 5487]

Been taking magnesium lately, while skin/hair are improving. I am having swings in mood and depression like symptoms. Is it lowering glut amine too much?

 

[TeslaFan]

Magnesium is anti-depressive up to a point, after which it will oppose Copper too much, and then it can cause problems, such as depression. Feeling good is a function of balance, with many variables involved. Still, majority of people would probably benefit from some extra Magnesium.

 

[Whichway?]

It does the same to me. I also have a feeling that it accelerates my hair loss. I don’t know why it makes me depressed (or flat)? It could be other co-factors that it works with, such as some of the B vitamins which then get thrown out of balance, or as skominac mentioned maybe it imbalances other minerals.

Would be good to hear from others what their experience has been?

 

[milkboi]

More GABA, less of other neurotransmitters?

 

[johnsmith]

My calcium and PTH blood levels were almost high after reading some of Ray's writings about it, I decided to greatly increase my magnesium dosage and frequency. I started taking 20 topical drops of Magnoil every night and it lowered my stress levels remarkably, but its been almost 2 weeks now on this dosage and my energy levels during the day are getting extremely low and my daytime naps are getting longer. Any ideas why my energy levels would be so low now?

 

[lampofred]

My calcium and PTH blood levels were almost high after reading some of Ray's writings about it, I decided to greatly increase my magnesium dosage and frequency. I started taking 20 topical drops of Magnoil every night and it lowered my stress levels remarkably, but its been almost 2 weeks now on this dosage and my energy levels during the day are getting extremely low and my daytime naps are getting longer. Any ideas why my energy levels would be so low now?

You answered your own question, magnesium lowers glutamate and stress hormones, so if your thyroid is low and you were running on stress hormones, it unmasks the underlying low thyroid energy.

 

[johnsmith]

You answered your own question, magnesium lowers glutamate and stress hormones, so if your thyroid is low and you were running on stress hormones, it unmasks the underlying low thyroid energy.

Thanks, I figured that's what it was :)

I already supplement thyroid but maybe not enough. I'll lower my mag dosage soon. It was a good experiment.

 

[Homo Consumericus]

Been taking magnesium lately, while skin/hair are improving. I am having swings in mood and depression like symptoms. Is it lowering glut amine too much?

Consider which form of magnesium you're using. When I first started taking taurine and magnesium glycinate, they calmed me down a bit and made me relaxed and even happy. Many years and many empty jars later, they calm me too much and make me demotivated and even despondent. Magnesium carbonate, which I purchased in May, does not effect my mood when eaten with meals or drunk between meals in water and a bit of ACV (à la yerrag's protocol).

 

[Hans]

Magnesium is a cofactor in the enzymes COMT which breaks down dopamine, noradrenaline and adrenaline. This can leave you with a flat mood and low energy.

 

[ShotTrue]

Magnesium is a cofactor in the enzymes COMT which breaks down dopamine, noradrenaline and adrenaline. This can leave you with a flat mood and low energy.

Interesting.
Mangesium also functions to remove estrogen out of the blood stream right? Maybe I didn't know enough but when I took it after using AI it definitely made me feel worse and put me in the opposite direction. I also had pretty bad mood swings. (This is mag chloride topcial)
Previously, when my hormones were balanced and I took vit K and D as well I just felt some calming

 

[Hans]

Interesting.
Mangesium also functions to remove estrogen out of the blood stream right? Maybe I didn't know enough but when I took it after using AI it definitely made me feel worse and put me in the opposite direction. I also had pretty bad mood swings. (This is mag chloride topcial)
Previously, when my hormones were balanced and I took vit K and D as well I just felt some calming

COMT also breaks down the hydroxy metabolites of estrogen yes. COMT converts the catechol estrogens to their inactive methoxy derivatives (2-MeOE(2) and 4-MeOE(2)).

Phytochemicals Inhibit Catechol-O-Methyltransferase Activity in Cytosolic Fractions from Healthy Human Mammary Tissues: Implications for Catechol Estrogen-Induced DNA Damage
"The tumor-initiating action of estrogens is believed to be a result of hydroxylation of the main estrogen in premenopausal women, 17β-estradiol (E2), to the catechol estrogens 2- and 4-hydroxyestradiol (Badawi et al., 2001; Martucci and Fishman, 1993; Ziegler et al., 1997). Unless inactivated, catechol estrogens can undergo oxidation to reactive quinones (Cavalieri et al., 1997). Quinones of 2-hydroxyestradiol (2-OHE2) can form stable DNA adducts that remain in the DNA unless repaired, but quinones of 4-hydroxyestradiol (4-OHE2) can form depurinating DNA adducts, a potential tumor-initiating event in human cancers (Cao et al., 1998; Cavalieri et al., 1997; Liehr, 1997; Yager, 2000). Catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) plays an important role in the inactivation of catechol estrogens"

Also, estrogen slows down COMT which could lead to higher dopamine levels, which could explain bad mood when using an aromatase inhibitor. Boosting dopamine would then be a good thing to try out. Some adamantane would do a good job.
Complex estrogenic regulation of catechol-O-methyltransferase (COMT) in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
"Antagonizing the effects of estrogen via tamoxifen increased COMT protein expression in several central and peripheral tissues. However, amounts of COMT protein and COMT activities did not always match. Generally, COMT activities were quite resistant to the effects of tamoxifen and estradiol. Estradiol, unexpectedly, doubled the amount of COMT protein in the prostate but exhibited down-regulatory function in the prefrontal cortex and kidneys."

"It is noteworthy that the estrogen down-regulation and tamoxifen up-regulation of COMT were best substantiated in the prefrontal cortex and kidneys where COMT is physiologically important for dopamine metabolism."

You can inhibit COMT too, with several phytochemicals with a catechol structure (quercetin, catechin, and (-)-epicatechin).
Vitamin K2 and D are both aromatase inhibitors too.

 

[RobertJM]

It’s acute effects are as an NMDA antagonist. I also find it’s acute effects extremely dulling. But if you take it in the evening and then sleep those acute effects off, I find that the following day I always feel so much better. It’s very similar to Ketamine in that respect. It’s an afterglow type of antidepressant effect. That’s how I use it anyway. Taurine works exactly the same way for me (dulling initial effects followed by a rebound type effect in mood).

 

[Adrienlcrx]

What magnesium form do you use @RobertJM and what is the dosage you take this evening to feel you good the next day if I may ask

 

[Amazoniac]

Magnesium is a cofactor in the enzymes COMT which breaks down dopamine, noradrenaline and adrenaline. This can leave you with a flat mood and low energy.

Juan, I've read your blog post on magnesium implying that magnesium malate isn't a good form, it bothered me a bit because I'm sponsored by such industry.

- Which form of magnesium should I take that will be most beneficial for my goal?

"Magnesium taurate – has high absorption and accumulates in the brain (taurine, which is believed to have osmoregulator, neuromodulator, and neuroprotective effects, is one of the most abundant sulfur-containing amino acids in the CNS), eye lens and muscles and to a lesser extent elsewhere, which makes it great as a nootropic, reducing neurological inflammation, anxiety and depression and preventing cataracts and cramps (R, R). It can also help enhance exercise performance."

"Magnesium malate – absorption is good, but it just remains high in the blood for an extended period of time and doesn’t seem to be particularly good at accumulating anywhere (R)."​

- Rethinking Magnesium: Why You're Deficient And Need To Supplement

You seem to be mixing the action of the ligand with the element itself. It's like Zeus' magnesium pidolate. Even though a salt has to be considered as a whole because you can't separate the elements, it's worth having in mind what is being responsible for the effect to avoid misinterpretation.

For example, the guru above mentioned that magnesium carbonate doesn't have such effect, how could it be magnesium? It may or mayn't be poor availability to tissues.

We are after the magnesium and not so much the ligand, which in turn isn't complexed with it in a way that is suited to our needs. The ingestion of certain organic acids can be pretty high through diet, but how much taurine we're normally exposed to daily? There's also their occurrence in tca300's cycle compared to the estimated synthesis of taurine.

Take the experiment, they have matched all forms of magnesium salts used to provide 400 mg of the element (which was great):

- Taurate form is 9% magnesium, so provides 4 g of taurine.
- Malate form is 15% magnesium, providing 2.3 g of malic acid.

1 liter of apple juice contains at least 4 grams of malic acid:
- Concentration of malic acid in apple juices

Now the person would have to be a wild beast to consume those 4 g of taurine:
- Taurine-induced Diuresis And Natriuresis In Cirrhotic Patients With Ascites

I assume they have adjusted the 6 mg/kg dose to rats, but otherwise both ligands would decrease proportionally and we're still after the element itself, we think in terms of how much magnesium we need when deciding the amount to take and neglect the rest.

There's also the fact that they didn't use magnesium taurate, it was acetyl taurate. This should impact not only the molecule weight but also the effect.
- Magnesium taurate
- Magnesium acetyl taurate

If the values that I have are correct, magnesium will decrease then from 9 to 6% of the molecule, so we're approaching traces of it relative to the molecule. On the other hand, the magnesium product available on the market is often dimagnesium malate, so it increases the magnesium content from 15 to 19%.

I don't understand the claim that magnesium is not a good form because it stayed in the blood for too long; its detection in muscles was higher than any form (including magnesium acetyl taurate and even the injected magnesium sulfate), so it was clearly reaching tissues. Magnesium oxide is interesting because its value in muscles was also high in spite of having the lowest total circulating amount.

Magnesium acetyl taurate standing out in terms of delivering it to the brain was something unique to it, all other forms were lower. While this is nice, they mentioned that such form isn't adsorbed intact, so the responsible for the effect was (of course) the ligand. Since such taurine doses are supraphysiological, I'm not sure this is the way to go.

This was also a single-dose experiment, making magnesium (acetyl) taurate likely not a sustainable option, it's just too much taurine for little magnesium; better to take other good form separately and complement with taurine or whatever as desired and you might be able to reap the benefits without having to deal with the overexposure.

By the way, your website is great.

 

[Dave Clark]

Magnesium is anti-depressive up to a point, after which it will oppose Copper too much, and then it can cause problems, such as depression. Feeling good is a function of balance, with many variables involved. Still, majority of people would probably benefit from some extra Magnesium.

Where is the science that says magnesium opposes copper? I can't find any, plus I also find it interesting that Morley Robbins, who is very much pro-bioavailable copper is known as Magnesium man and promotes magnesium strongly. Other than this forum, I have not seen anything that says if you supplement with magnesium you are going to lower your copper.

 

[Hans]

Juan, I've read your blog post on magnesium implying that magnesium malate isn't a good form, it bothered me a bit because I'm sponsored by such industry.

- Which form of magnesium should I take that will be most beneficial for my goal?

"Magnesium taurate – has high absorption and accumulates in the brain (taurine, which is believed to have osmoregulator, neuromodulator, and neuroprotective effects, is one of the most abundant sulfur-containing amino acids in the CNS), eye lens and muscles and to a lesser extent elsewhere, which makes it great as a nootropic, reducing neurological inflammation, anxiety and depression and preventing cataracts and cramps (R, R). It can also help enhance exercise performance."

"Magnesium malate – absorption is good, but it just remains high in the blood for an extended period of time and doesn’t seem to be particularly good at accumulating anywhere (R)."​

- Rethinking Magnesium: Why You're Deficient And Need To Supplement

You seem to be mixing the action of the ligand with the element itself. It's like Zeus' magnesium pidolate. Even though a salt has to be considered as a whole because you can't separate the elements, it's worth having in mind what is being responsible for the effect to avoid misinterpretation.

For example, the guru above mentioned that magnesium carbonate doesn't have such effect, how could it be magnesium? It may or mayn't be poor availability to tissues.

We are after the magnesium and not so much the ligand, which in turn isn't complexed with it in a way that is suited to our needs. The ingestion of certain organic acids can be pretty high through diet, but how much taurine we're normally exposed to daily? There's also their occurrence in tca300's cycle compared to the estimated synthesis of taurine.

Take the experiment, they have matched all forms of magnesium salts used to provide 400 mg of the element (which was great):

- Taurate form is 9% magnesium, so provides 4 g of taurine.
- Malate form is 15% magnesium, providing 2.3 g of malic acid.

1 liter of apple juice contains at least 4 grams of malic acid:
- Concentration of malic acid in apple juices

Now the person would have to be a wild beast to consume those 4 g of taurine:
- Taurine-induced Diuresis And Natriuresis In Cirrhotic Patients With Ascites

I assume they have adjusted the 6 mg/kg dose to rats, but otherwise both ligands would decrease proportionally and we're still after the element itself, we think in terms of how much magnesium we need when deciding the amount to take and neglect the rest.

There's also the fact that they didn't use magnesium taurate, it was acetyl taurate. This should impact not only the molecule weight but also the effect.
- Magnesium taurate
- Magnesium acetyl taurate

If the values that I have are correct, magnesium will decrease then from 9 to 6% of the molecule, so we're approaching traces of it relative to the molecule. On the other hand, the magnesium product available on the market is often dimagnesium malate, so it increases the magnesium content from 15 to 19%.

I don't understand the claim that magnesium is not a good form because it stayed in the blood for too long; its detection in muscles was higher than any form (including magnesium acetyl taurate and even the injected magnesium sulfate), so it was clearly reaching tissues. Magnesium oxide is interesting because its value in muscles was also high in spite of having the lowest total circulating amount.

Magnesium acetyl taurate standing out in terms of delivering it to the brain was something unique to it, all other forms were lower. While this is nice, they mentioned that such form isn't adsorbed intact, so the responsible for the effect was (of course) the ligand. Since such taurine doses are supraphysiological, I'm not sure this is the way to go.

This was also a single-dose experiment, making magnesium (acetyl) taurate likely not a sustainable option, it's just too much taurine for little magnesium; better to take other good form separately and complement with taurine or whatever as desired and you might be able to reap the benefits without having to deal with the overexposure.

By the way, your website is great.

Good points. When comparing Mg taurate and threonate for brain Mg, both are pretty low in the elemental Mg. But overall, the acetyl taurate also didn't seem very good for accumulating in the muscle.

For the muscle, malate did do pretty well and acetyl taurate pretty bad.

 

[Amazoniac]

Good points. When comparing Mg taurate and threonate for brain Mg, both are pretty low in the elemental Mg. But overall, the acetyl taurate also didn't seem very good for accumulating in the muscle.

For the muscle, malate did do pretty well and acetyl taurate pretty bad.

Oh shiτ, I just realized that we can't rely on those values because the groups were unaffect'd in relation to the reference one; yet acetyl taurate indeed increased the cerebra amount at the expense of muscles. Since most tests might be confounded by the ligands, more direct and reliable parameters could be the erythrocaicuyes (3b) followed by the circulating amounts:

Spoiler: Figure 3

Magnesium malate seemed to fare pretty well, note how red blood cells concentration increased along with what was circulating.

 

[TeslaFan]

Where is the science that says magnesium opposes copper? I can't find any, plus I also find it interesting that Morley Robbins, who is very much pro-bioavailable copper is known as Magnesium man and promotes magnesium strongly. Other than this forum, I have not seen anything that says if you supplement with magnesium you are going to lower your copper.

Have you tried using an internet search engine, such as Google?

One example: Copper absorption as affected by supplemental calcium, magnesium, manganese, selenium and potassium. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Frankdee20]

I would agree here and say that Glycinate or Taurate forms of Magnesium really enhance the dulling effects. Magnesium itself is a NMDA blocker, and lowers ACTH. I prefer the Citrate or Oxide forms or Malate. I need as much as 600 mg daily, and using the amino chelates is simply too much for me.

 

[managing]

I just began using Biocare Mag succinate:Cal succinate (2:1) about 5 days ago (one each morning). So far I have felt amazing. And definitely a different feeling than straight succinic acid.