lilsticky
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There was a study where paymanz used magnesium oxide and he felt good on it
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Magnesium Oxide Is (surprisingly) Better Than Citrate
There was a study where paymanz used magnesium oxide and he felt good on it
Frankdee20
Member
Citrate has more laxative effect than Oxide, and gives me hemorrhoids, not the shits. I like the Oxide, Malate, and Glycinate.
Amazoniac
Member
Not sure why this didn't get more attention.
"Many important findings about the effects of different salts and cations on bacterial viability were made in the first three decades of the 20th century which many considered to be the ‘golden age’ of this type of research. Cations were reported to exert a highly characteristic effect upon bacteria: low concentrations of given salts were reported to favor viability, whereas higher concentrations were associated with growth inhibition [1-3]. This effect was visualized by an optimum curve that generally held true for all cations; however, the concentrations at which the transition between beneficial and toxic occurred seemed to vary greatly among the different cations. Salts such as NaCl or KCl, which are typically ‘favorable’ (for example, in growth media or physiological saline solution), were reported to be inhibitory in sufficiently high concentrations. Whereas the latter correlates with common scientific ‘gut feeling’ and the concept of osmotic stress, the same principle could be implied to suggest that even highly toxic substances such as HgCl2, PbCl2 and other heavy metals might have a stimulating effect on bacterial growth in sufficiently low concentrations. Although there was no clear explanation of this empiric observation [3], the effects of different cations and their specific efficiencies (both in regard to stimulation and inhibition) resulted in the quantitative assignment of ‘specific potency’ factors. Na+ served as a reference and was assigned a potency factor of 1. Examples of potencies that were reported include: K+ = 1.2, Mg2+ = 9.4, Ca2+ = 12, Mn2+ = 400, Zn2+ = 700, and Cd2+ = 3000 [4]."
"[..]it is known that an aqueous solution of MgCl2 is slightly acidic as a result of hydrolysis [6], the effect is greatly potentiated in the presence of naturally occurring, strong inorganic and organic bases."
"Low pH and the presence of inorganic and organic bases is a situation typically encountered on the skin where MgCl2 has been attributed healing and antiseptic properties."
They tested how well bactaeria grewed on different conditions.
Comparison between salts:
"None of the salts affected culturability at pH7 (initial buffer pH). Neither was survival compromised in the sample buffered at pH3 in the absence of salt, suggesting that exposure to pH3 for 20 min did not affect the culturability of L. monocytogenes. The presence of the salts at acidic pH on the other hand, resulted in a general decrease in growth, with reductions of approximately 2 log units (NaCl and KCl), 4 log units (CaCl2), and 5-6 log units for MgCl2. A substantial drop in pH when mixing buffer and salt solutions was only observed for the divalent cations, offering a potential explanation for the effects of MgCl2 and CaCl2, but not for the monovalent ions."
Dependence on pH:
And concentration:
"Both salts affected viability, but at different concentrations. Compared with a control sample without salt, the presence of MgCl2 and NaCl reduced growth in concentrations ≥150 mM and ≥400 mM, respectively."
Addition of ions to the media boosts fatality:
Dependence on ligand:
"Results presented in this study indicate that at low pH and in the presence of inorganic or organic bases, extracellular MgCl2 at concentrations above 150mM can result in an antimicrobial effect. As the salt does not affect bacterial viability under ‘normal’ conditions (i.e. near-neutral pH), the action qualifies as synergistic with acidity. The effect of MgCl2 was substantially stronger than that exerted by other chloride salts and might, in part, be explained by enhanced acidification. The latter can be attributed to the special properties of the Mg2+ cation which has, among the biologically relevant cations, the smallest ionic radius and the highest charge density [11]. This in turn results in a strong interaction with the water molecules that surround the cation in two shells [12]."
"Although the conditions applied in this study are ‘artificial’, they demonstrate that different salts have very different effects on bacterial viability and that the effects are pH-dependent. At pH conditions that are critical but sub-lethal, the additional presence of the salt can render cells more susceptible, exceeding the tolerable stress intensity. Acidic pH is one of nature’s most efficient strategies to control microbial growth. Low pH is, for example, an essential requirement for healthy skin where the pH has been reported to be, on average, around 4.7 as a result of acids that are either secreted by the human body or produced by bacteria that are part of normal skin flora [14]. Disturbance of this protective mantle is common in skin disorders such as atopic dermatitis and eczema [15]. An increase in skin pH can be associated with a general increase in skin colonization, a higher abundance of pathogens [16], and modulated virulence of pathogens [17] and their adhesion [18]."
"In the context of this study, it is noteworthy that MgCl2 is the dominant salt in the Dead Sea, with a Mg2+ concentration of 1.89 M and Cl- representing 99% of all anions [19]. The Dead Sea has been credited with healing properties for skin diseases since historic times. Scientific studies on its effect on microbes are extremely rare, although antimicrobial properties have been described for Dead Sea mud [20]. Interestingly, we could show in this study that Staphylococcus aureus (which is a common skin pathogen) was susceptible to the presence of MgCl2 at an acidic pH. Microbiological studies in relation to skin seem appropriate for future research. Anionic bases can be expected to be present on skin in the form of skin excretion products, bacterial metabolites and cellular debris from dead keratinocytes accumulating on the surface. In contrast to the harsh acidic pH conditions (typically pH 3) chosen in this study to look for an antimicrobial effect within a short exposure time (20 min), less severe (and thus more physiologically relevant) pH conditions might be effective when applying longer exposure times. It is tempting to speculate that it might be beneficial to apply alpha hydroxy acids (AHAs) in combination with MgCl2 for skin treatment. AHAs comprise a group of organic carboxylic compounds (lactic acid, glycolic acid, malic acid, citric acid, etc.) commonly used in cosmetics and dermatological applications [21]."
"[..]it is known that an aqueous solution of MgCl2 is slightly acidic as a result of hydrolysis [6], the effect is greatly potentiated in the presence of naturally occurring, strong inorganic and organic bases."
"Low pH and the presence of inorganic and organic bases is a situation typically encountered on the skin where MgCl2 has been attributed healing and antiseptic properties."
They tested how well bactaeria grewed on different conditions.
Comparison between salts:
"None of the salts affected culturability at pH7 (initial buffer pH). Neither was survival compromised in the sample buffered at pH3 in the absence of salt, suggesting that exposure to pH3 for 20 min did not affect the culturability of L. monocytogenes. The presence of the salts at acidic pH on the other hand, resulted in a general decrease in growth, with reductions of approximately 2 log units (NaCl and KCl), 4 log units (CaCl2), and 5-6 log units for MgCl2. A substantial drop in pH when mixing buffer and salt solutions was only observed for the divalent cations, offering a potential explanation for the effects of MgCl2 and CaCl2, but not for the monovalent ions."
Dependence on pH:
And concentration:
"Both salts affected viability, but at different concentrations. Compared with a control sample without salt, the presence of MgCl2 and NaCl reduced growth in concentrations ≥150 mM and ≥400 mM, respectively."
Addition of ions to the media boosts fatality:
Dependence on ligand:
"Results presented in this study indicate that at low pH and in the presence of inorganic or organic bases, extracellular MgCl2 at concentrations above 150mM can result in an antimicrobial effect. As the salt does not affect bacterial viability under ‘normal’ conditions (i.e. near-neutral pH), the action qualifies as synergistic with acidity. The effect of MgCl2 was substantially stronger than that exerted by other chloride salts and might, in part, be explained by enhanced acidification. The latter can be attributed to the special properties of the Mg2+ cation which has, among the biologically relevant cations, the smallest ionic radius and the highest charge density [11]. This in turn results in a strong interaction with the water molecules that surround the cation in two shells [12]."
"Although the conditions applied in this study are ‘artificial’, they demonstrate that different salts have very different effects on bacterial viability and that the effects are pH-dependent. At pH conditions that are critical but sub-lethal, the additional presence of the salt can render cells more susceptible, exceeding the tolerable stress intensity. Acidic pH is one of nature’s most efficient strategies to control microbial growth. Low pH is, for example, an essential requirement for healthy skin where the pH has been reported to be, on average, around 4.7 as a result of acids that are either secreted by the human body or produced by bacteria that are part of normal skin flora [14]. Disturbance of this protective mantle is common in skin disorders such as atopic dermatitis and eczema [15]. An increase in skin pH can be associated with a general increase in skin colonization, a higher abundance of pathogens [16], and modulated virulence of pathogens [17] and their adhesion [18]."
"In the context of this study, it is noteworthy that MgCl2 is the dominant salt in the Dead Sea, with a Mg2+ concentration of 1.89 M and Cl- representing 99% of all anions [19]. The Dead Sea has been credited with healing properties for skin diseases since historic times. Scientific studies on its effect on microbes are extremely rare, although antimicrobial properties have been described for Dead Sea mud [20]. Interestingly, we could show in this study that Staphylococcus aureus (which is a common skin pathogen) was susceptible to the presence of MgCl2 at an acidic pH. Microbiological studies in relation to skin seem appropriate for future research. Anionic bases can be expected to be present on skin in the form of skin excretion products, bacterial metabolites and cellular debris from dead keratinocytes accumulating on the surface. In contrast to the harsh acidic pH conditions (typically pH 3) chosen in this study to look for an antimicrobial effect within a short exposure time (20 min), less severe (and thus more physiologically relevant) pH conditions might be effective when applying longer exposure times. It is tempting to speculate that it might be beneficial to apply alpha hydroxy acids (AHAs) in combination with MgCl2 for skin treatment. AHAs comprise a group of organic carboxylic compounds (lactic acid, glycolic acid, malic acid, citric acid, etc.) commonly used in cosmetics and dermatological applications [21]."
Officializing here that Chlorine in prolactinese is now Nagmacium (from 'non-anion gap metabolic acidosis' element).
Amazoniac
Member
Low doses should be uptaken, moderate doses will destroy your gut and large doses may be inhibitory on microbes. However, the duration of exposure will be shorter than what they considered brief, therefore higher doses will be needed. Dilution initially will be based on stomach content, but to get high amounts for the inhibition, it might draw water from the body and dilute it further.
An advantage of magnesium salts that react with stomach acid is that there's no acid load, you'll only recirculate nagmacium and potentially lose some. It must be recovered at distal parts of the intestine, next to bile [which is concentrated in edemium (Na) taurowhoknowswhat, for example]. I once read that this is indeed the major site of edemium nagmacide (re)uptake, but haven't confirmed.
Then, you have to consider how favorable the segments of the intestine is in terms of acidity (Figure 2 above, according to them, you'd need a pH of 4 or lower):
The short-chain fatty acids are already taken into account. You may enhance the production in attempt to acidify, but there's the length of exposure problem, yet constipation being present could help (?).
There's the concentration factor:
- Diagnosis of Magnesium-Induced Diarrhea
A watery stool gives you an idea. You won't discharge one liter at a time and the faecal weight (provided by them) is for the day.
It doesn't seem promising at first glance, but worth considering.
An advantage of magnesium salts that react with stomach acid is that there's no acid load, you'll only recirculate nagmacium and potentially lose some. It must be recovered at distal parts of the intestine, next to bile [which is concentrated in edemium (Na) taurowhoknowswhat, for example]. I once read that this is indeed the major site of edemium nagmacide (re)uptake, but haven't confirmed.
- A systematic literature search and review of sodium concentrations of body fluids
- enterohepatic circulation bile sodium | Google Images
- enterohepatic circulation bile sodium | Google Images
Then, you have to consider how favorable the segments of the intestine is in terms of acidity (Figure 2 above, according to them, you'd need a pH of 4 or lower):
The short-chain fatty acids are already taken into account. You may enhance the production in attempt to acidify, but there's the length of exposure problem, yet constipation being present could help (?).
There's the concentration factor:
- Diagnosis of Magnesium-Induced Diarrhea
"The fecal concentration of soluble magnesium in subjects given magnesium hydroxide averaged 119, 128, and 134 mmol per liter with the low, medium, and high doses [48, 96, or 193 mmol] of magnesium hydroxide, respectively."
"[..]when magnesium is the sole cause of diarrhea, an incremental output of 1 mmol of soluble magnesium results in a 7.3-g increment in fecal weight."
"[..]when magnesium is the sole cause of diarrhea, an incremental output of 1 mmol of soluble magnesium results in a 7.3-g increment in fecal weight."
A watery stool gives you an idea. You won't discharge one liter at a time and the faecal weight (provided by them) is for the day.
It doesn't seem promising at first glance, but worth considering.
Last edited:
Bodhi
Member
I simply use pure MG Chloride flakes and create my own MG spray .... Also this is much cheaper than any tablets ....
Of all supplements i ever tried the MG spraying on in my body has the most effects , i love the combo of Activated charcoal, cascara and MG oil .... keep the stools going while cleansing my gut .....
Of all supplements i ever tried the MG spraying on in my body has the most effects , i love the combo of Activated charcoal, cascara and MG oil .... keep the stools going while cleansing my gut .....
This single message should be stickied and discussed over again and again. Because if this is true, oxide is the best form of magnesium.
Hi Whichway?
Are you taking Mg Oxide these days? I'm looking at LEF product that has 490mg MgOx/5mg Citrate from Glucose/5mg Succinate. If citrate could be a problem but this one has very little, could this be a reasonable choice? What brand do you recommend, or that you take? Thank you in advance.
Hi Dave Clark-
Since you posted this, did you take this product? I just queried @Whichway? on another LEF Mg product that I'm looking at- an oxide form mainly.
The extended-release doesn't seem to get the most or highest reviews in comparison. I guess I would stay clear of it anyway because of extra fillers in that product, but it also seems most kinds of timed-release vitamins have down sides, not sure why.
Any feedback/update would be appreciated- thank you.
?Interesting points. Can you provide link?
Dave Clark
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I did not try that product, however, I am trying this product, which looks more interesting to me:Hi Dave Clark-
Since you posted this, did you take this product? I just queried @Whichway? on another LEF Mg product that I'm looking at- an oxide form mainly.
The extended-release doesn't seem to get the most or highest reviews in comparison. I guess I would stay clear of it anyway because of extra fillers in that product, but it also seems most kinds of timed-release vitamins have down sides, not sure why.
Any feedback/update would be appreciated- thank you.
MicroMag Powder | Optimized Magnesium
Buy Optimized Magnesium Powder - Nootropics Depot is the #1 most trusted source for high quality Sucrosomial Magnesium Powder. Read reviews, learn uses and benefits. Shop now!
nootropicsdepot.com
Sounds interesting. Already using? I see there are other brands of this form out there, some more expensive. Seems average dose is about 200mg/day. Seems minimal but probably relative to its bio-availability. Thanks for sharing. Should this supply one's magnesium needs for all concerns- heart, neuro, etc?
Dave Clark
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I am using. Not sure about whether this is the only Mg needed. I use it before bed, and I am seeing how it affects me, but I use Mg malate during the day. Where did you see the MicroMag at other places, I have only seen it at Nootropic Depot?
Amazon, of course! Amazon product
View: https://www.amazon.com/Optimized-Magnesium-Supplement-Elemental-Relaxation/dp/B07L512DP5/ref=sr_1_6?crid=XHQDI7F3BB29&keywords=nootropics%2Bdepot%2Bmicromag&qid=1652310204&sprefix=nootropics%2Bdepot%2Bmicroma%2Caps%2C135&sr=8-6&th=1
By the way, kind of confusing. Both on their own site and Az, it shows a 30- and a 60-gram size. The label of servings doesn't change so I couldn't tell if the larger size had that many servings or the smaller, for the respective pricing. Either size, it seems cheaper on Nootropics site but then they get you on the $10 shipping, so it might be a wash between their site and amazon on pricing.
P.S. Thanks for quick response to my question. When I read their blurb on the product, they talk about its efficacy for heart, neuro health. So maybe it covers all bases, just depends on how much you need.
Just curious- have you found the Nootropic brand to help better with sleep than other Mg supplements you have tried?
Just curious- have you found the Nootropic brand to help better with sleep than other Mg supplements you have tried?
Cloudhands
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i uses micromag, it was expensive and made me poopy, didnt really do the job that well. Ive tried every kind of Mg, best are Mg bicarbonate and Mg taurate
Thanks for feedback. What brand taurate have you used/liked? I've made my own bicarb but never stick to it. Assume you make your own, or some other?
Hi Kray. No I’m no longer using that one as it has citrate in it now and they don’t specify how much of each of the three forms of magnesium is in the supplement.
I was using a brand called Natural Stacks magnesium which is magnesium-L-threonate. It was expensive but I found it excellent to help relax and also to help with sleep. I also tried the BioOptimzers brand which differentiates itself by having seven different forms of magnesium claiming that each gets absorbed and utilized differently by different cells and tissues in the body. I didn’t like that one as it made me feel weird and off. Tried it several different times at different times of the day, with and without food, but each time same issue.
At the moment I am using an electrolyte powder here in Australia called Endurance. It has magnesium as bisglycinate, as well as potassium and calcium. Because I am trying to be more active and often suffer sore stiff muscles, knots and trigger points I figure I can probably benefit from all of the ions which help muscles relax.
Cloudhands
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yeah i made bicarb whenever i did use it. I use double wood brand whenever i do use it
Whichway, thanks very much for your response. Your reasoning makes sense based on your needs. To clarify, are you referring to Natural Stacks that added citrate to theirs?
When I called LEF on their product, their take on Mg is quantity over form, so a dose of 500mg/capsule offers enough magnesium for relatively adequate absorption. Maybe I would need 2/day. Anyway, compared to forms labeled "citrate", which this one isn't, I am willing to try this formula, as I like their products generally, and they still are available by phone to answer the more technical questions, as they were 20 years ago when I first called, FWIW which is something these days IMO. 5mg citrate seems negligible compared to citrate-labeled forms I took for far too long. Seems like the citric acid and succinic acid simply help uptake?
Best to you, and thanks again for sharing.
No. I meant I’m no longer taking the LEF one. I like their supplements also and they used to have one which was magnesium oxide only, but have since switched it to include succinate and citrate in it. So because I’ve had problems with citrate I‘m staying away from it.
This is the one I used from natural stacks. I forgot it has taurate and glycinate forms as well as L-threonate. Worth a try. MagTech® Magnesium
Ray Peat Inspired Cosmetics
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