Magnesium Causing Kidney Stones?

cb4

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Magnesium citrate gives me some weird reactions. Whenever I take it, I get awful muscle twitches, especially at night. About two years ago I took some and not only had twitches but after a few days I got kidney stones! At the time I thought that perhaps the magnesium pulled so much calcium out of my soft tissue that my kidneys could not keep up.

A few weeks ago I decided to try it again. Mostly in the winter I have a lot of muscle tension because I work outside in the cold. So I decided to take it. I worked my way up gradually to 350 mg and sure enough had twitches initially, but they subsided. But now, my kidneys are sore, so I think I am heading back to where I was two years ago. So far the pain is dull and not the sharp type caused by large stones so I decided to stop the magnesium.

Does anyone agree with me that perhaps the magnesium is displacing the calcium in my tissues and my kidneys cannot keep up? I have not had a very high calcium diet in the last few years, in fact my diet has pretty much been a stress inducing paleo type with some sprouted grain bread as a carb. Probably not the most bone friendly diet - low mg and ca, high phosphorus and sodium.

Any thoughts?
 
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cb4

cb4

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I do prefer the epsom salt soak to the mag cit drink but taking a bath is not always as convenient as drinking something. Any idea what percentage of the salts the body takes up during the bath? I know that the bath relaxes my muscles but I am also concerned with plasma levels and the dementia preventative effects on the brain.
 

Waynish

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cb4, why would the bath not be as protective as eating it - if it indeed gets into the body either way?
 

Giraffe

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Any idea what percentage of the salts the body takes up during the bath? I know that the bath relaxes my muscles but I am also concerned with plasma levels and the dementia preventative effects on the brain.
Peat recommends to add baking soda and epsom salt to the bath. He thinks that the baking soda helps the absorption of magnesium.

It seems that this paper has never been published in a scientific journal. They used plain epsom salt in the bath.

However, all individuals had significant rises in plasma magnesium and sulfate at a level of 1% Epsom salts. This equates to 1g MgS04/100ml water; 600g Epsom salts/60 litres, the standard size UK bath taken in this project (~15 US gallons). However, most volunteers had significantly raised Mg/S04 levels on baths with 400g MgS04 added.

Although this project did not specifically set out to answer the question of how frequently baths should be taken, the results are consistent with saturation of the skin (and possibly the gut )transporters .These proteins are not well understood or described but, at least for sulfate, they are believed to be high affinity but low capacity.The values obtained suggest that most people would find maximal benefit by bathing 2 or 3 times/week, using 500-600g Epsom salts each time.
 
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Waynish

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Any idea how epsom salt baths (with or without baking soda) compares to swimming in the ocean?
 
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cb4

cb4

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cb4, why would the bath not be as protective as eating it - if it indeed gets into the body either way?
I am not sure if the mag is being absorbed completely by the muscles or if there is a sufficient amount entering bloodstream and being taken up by the brain.
 
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cb4

cb4

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cb4, why would the bath not be as protective as eating it - if it indeed gets into the body either way?
the paper quoted by giraffe seems to answer this question.

However I am still perplexed as to why taking oral magnesium supp. will cause kidney pain.
 

Waynish

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Taking in capsule or powder? I often theorize that the capsule blowing up and exposing small sections of the small intestine to more concentrated solutions of the refined substance than would ever otherwise occur...
 

Mito

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However I am still perplexed as to why taking oral magnesium supp. will cause kidney pain.
It could be related to the status of your kidney function.

"Magnesium absorption and excretion. Magnesium homeostasis is maintained by the intestine, the bone and the kidneys. Magnesium—just like calcium—is absorbed in the gut and stored in bone mineral, and excess magnesium is excreted by the kidneys and the faeces (Figure 4)."
Magnesium basics
 

Ukall

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Hmm, aren't Citrate containing supplements actually better to prevent kidney stones?
 

HDD

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Are you getting enough calcium?

This excerpt is in the article by Ray Peat-

It is extremely important to realize that calcium deposits in soft tissues become worse when the diet is low in calcium. Persons suffering from arthritis, bursitis, scleroderma, hardening of the arteries and any abnormality where calcium deposits or spurs may cause pain are often afraid to eat foods rich in calcium. Actually they can never improve until their calcium and magnesium intakes are adequate. Not infrequently physicians tell individuals with kidney stones to avoid all milk, thereby causing stones to form even more rapidly. Such calcium deposits can also occur when vitamin E is undersupplied. After open-heart surgery, when both magnesium and vitamin E are drastically needed and could easily be given, the calcification of heart muscles often becomes so severe that it can cause death within a few days. Pages 171-172, Lets Eat Right to Keep Fit, Adelle Davis, Signet, 1970.

Calcium and Disease: Hypertension, organ calcification, & shock, vs. respiratory energy
 
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cb4

cb4

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Peat recommends to add baking soda and epsom salt to the bath. He thinks that the baking soda helps the absorption of magnesium.

It seems that this paper has never been published in a scientific journal. They used plain epsom salt in the bath.
Thanks for this post, it answers my question.

However, I am still wondering why the mag supp seems to precipitate kidney stone/pain.
 
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cb4

cb4

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These are all interesting ideas. I have stopped the mag for about 5 days and everything (twitches, kidney pain) seems to be settling down. It is interesting how initially I have very loose stools from the mag but as my body gets "used to" the intake the loose stools stop and the twitches begin. Mag should be a muscle relaxer and calcium causes muscle contractions which led me to the conclusion that the magnesium was liberating calcium from the tissue and it was wreaking havoc on its way out of the body. Also calcium is one of the things the causes kidney stones to form, attached to either oxalate or uric acid. I do not really consume a lot of dietary calcium which further supports my thesis that I am probably starting to calcify as my body steals calcium from my bones. Combine that with the ton of stress I have been under in the last couple of years (also on a low carb diet to boot) and you have a recipe for disaster. Just had blood work done before taking mag and kidney function is strong ( at least according to the test results).
 

whit

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The epsom/baking soda soak is amazing but not convenient.
I used to have similar issues with other forms of Mag until we started using Mag Chloride on the skin. Some people need to start with a weak solution and work up to a fully saturated one because it can fell itchy but it works well either way. There's a definite positive change when the body gets enough.
I also put a little in my water it tastes a little sweeter to me.
 
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cb4

cb4

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Thanks. Just heard Ray say that he does not like minerals or many supplements in isolation. The body is used to extracting them from foods in conjunction with other nutrients. Isolated elements can have a toxic affect on gut and body. Maybe topically is a better delivery method for isolated elements.
 

Rand56

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Thanks. Just heard Ray say that he does not like minerals or many supplements in isolation. The body is used to extracting them from foods in conjunction with other nutrients. Isolated elements can have a toxic affect on gut and body. Maybe topically is a better delivery method for isolated elements.

This could be the reason why I seem to fare better getting extra minerals from kale broth and Gerolsteiner mineral water. I've done both mag chloride topically and Epsom salt baths, and I don't really notice much effects from either. Then again I don't really deal with high anxiety, where if I did, maybe I would notice more of an effect.
 

sladerunner69

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Kidney pain is because there is somehting in the supplements, possibly the mag cit itself or an additive or excipient that is difficult for the kidneys to process
 

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