Luc Montagnier - The French Ray Peat

Discussion in 'Resources' started by haidut, Dec 13, 2013.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    Hi all,

    I am not sure how many people on this forum are familiar with the work of Luc Montagnier.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luc_Montagnier

    He got the Nobel Prize in Medicine for his "discovery" of the HIV. However, since then he has publicly distanced himself from his discovery and has become essentially aligned with Peter Duesberg's view on HIV/AIDS. In other words, Montagnier now claims that HIV is harmless for most people and the disease we know as AIDS is most certainly not what is publicly presented, especially the claim that it is caused by HIV.
    His work did not stop there. In 2010 and 2011 he gave a number of interviews stating that autism may be a gut-related disease that can be cured by a course of antibiotics, all of which came from the tetracycline family. This was too much for mainstream media to handle and he was vilified to no end. But if you look at his autism treatment protocol it is essentially identical to Peat's recommendations on fixing gut issues.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzb ... utism-one/
    http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/ ... e-strikes/

    Finally, he published several fascinating papers on how viruses and bacteria emit EMF and how that can be used for diagnosis and treatment. Here is one non-technical summary, you can find the actual scientific references in the Wiki page above.
    http://www.21stcenturysciencetech.com/A ... agnier.pdf

    In addition, in those same papers he claims to have proof that information contained inside DNA can be transferred from one isolated media to another, while the media has no physical contact with each other. In the case of pathogens, this would mean "sick" cells can sicken "healthy" cells without direct contact. If that can happen, then there is no surprise in Peat's claims that cancer cells can communicate their "stress" to other cells everywhere in the body and make them move close to become cancerous themselves. His paper talks about the same long distance structure formed in water very similar to the ideas that Ray wrote about in his articles, and how water behaves differently depending on the substances it comes in contact with.
    Overall, his research gets very close to the idea that "non-living" substance can generate life through electromagnetism. Of course, this is no paradox when viewed in the correct context. I think Peat has said the same thing in a number of articles and interviews - i.e. there is no fundamental difference between "living" and "non-living" matter.
    Truly fascinating guy is that Montagnier. Too bad he mocked by everyone and now is essentially into exile in China where they are more open to his ideas.

    Finally, a question. In one of his interviews Ray mention of a researcher from Cambridge who in the 1940s did a number of experiments showing that the properties ascribed to living matter can all be found in non-living matter as well. Does anybody know who that researcher is?
     

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  2. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    RP mentioned J.C. Bose's (Jagadish Chandra Bose) work on this
    topic in some politics and science interview.
     
  3. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Yes, that was the name! I just couldn't decipher it from the interview. Thanks Mittir!
     
  4. Dutchie

    Dutchie Member

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    What diet does he prescribe?bc i cant find an outline....is it basically the same as GAPS?.....just curious
     
  5. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    Montagnier is a man of the establishment.
    As such he will never rock the boat, even though he seems to have some interesting ideas.

    His alignement with Duesberg is an absurd one.
    In France, there has been a clear cut case of AIDS blood contamination by mouth to mouth ressucitation ( The Gérard Weidlich affair, http://www.amazon.fr/Enqu%C3%AAte-survi ... 2844453864)
    where a perfectly young and healthy coastguard attempted to ressucitate a drowned AIDS infected man who was coughing blood.
    The quantity of AIDS viruses absorbed at once made him come down with terminal AIDS in only 9 months time.

    The man should have died, but he enroled in a last hope medical trial designed by another man of the french health establishment, Mirko Beljanski, who was using ARN fragments to halt cancer and virus desases ( he cured Gérard, but once authorities realised he was curing people, he was thrown himself in prison multiple times ( at 80 years of age , nonetheless ! ).

    Montagnier is thus well placed to know Duesberg's theory is bunk.
    He is well placed to know too alternative therapies like Beljanski or Vit C can control AIDS, but he hasn't spoken a word about it.

    I would be reading this man's theories very cautiously.
     
  6. Dave H

    Dave H Member

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    Thanks, Haidut, for another interesting post.

    Am a bit familiar with Luc Montagnier's work. Yes, it is tied in with structured water, which is very important to Ray Peat's ideas (and to Gilbert Ling and Mae Wan-Ho, both important influences on RP). If you read Ray's article on AIDS too, http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/im ... ency.shtml, it is clear that RP, like Luc Montagnier, believes that AIDS is due not to HIV, but to oxidative stress and (in Ray's case) immune suppression caused by the usual suspects. In his article, Ray specifically mentions Duesberg's work:

    [highlight=#ffff00]the official doctrine that it is caused by the "HIV" virus still hasn't been supported by anything that resembles real science. Duesberg's arguments have never been answered (except by bureaucratic thuggery).[/highlight]

    Montagnier says he is working in China now because of the intellectual suppression of his funding and ideas in Europe. The Western scientific establishment is appalled at his work on intracellular electromagnetic signalling, structured water, and his continued rejection of the establishment view that the HIV virus destroys the immune system and uniquely causes AIDS (yes, it must particularly rankle when this guy won the Nobel Prize for discovering the HIV virus!). He was one of the only prominent scientists in France to have the guts to defend Jacques Beneviste when his career and research institute were being destroyed by the scientific establishment there because of his work on homeopathy (and structured water). Luc Montagnier is a courageous man and you're right to compare him to Ray Peat.
     
  7. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    You're misinformed.

    There were many courageous voices who openly defended Benveniste when the establishment was persecuting him.

    Saddly, Montagnier wasn't part of them .

    As long as Benveniste lived, Montagnier didn't lift a finger to defend him.

    It is only on the 27 october 2007, at a Lugano conference in Switzerland that Montagnier conveniently chose to give credence to Benveniste, dead since 2004: he simply pounced on the opportunity to use his work for his own interests.

    The same attitude can be found in his fake support for Beljanski:
    (Pg 232 of his 2008 book "Les combats de la vie")

    Fact is, Montagnier has consistenly refused to recognise publicly the work of Beljanski as long as the latter was alive ( dead in 1998).

    (pg 204 of his 2008 book " Les combats de la vie")

    Incredible statement for Montagnier, since he had access to all Beljanski's scientific publications, and had been personally in communication with Weidlich multiple times, starting in 1986, meeting him in person at the Pasteur Institute in 1992. He knew Beljansky had cured Gerard !

    Gérard Weidlich himself denounces the opportunism of Montagnier in the book i referenced earlier :
    He explains that even though Montagnier saw the results of Beljanski' treatment on his AIDS syndrome, he never kept his word and absolutely refused to have any contact with his fellow collegue of the Pasteur Institute.

    Even worse:
    when the authorities began a terrible repression of Beljanski and his fellow pharmacists and sick patients on 9 october 1996, the association created by Beljanski and his patients received the support of a few international scientists like Maurice Stroun and Christiane Bonissol, who demolished the accusations during the second trial on appeal, won by the Beljanski clan.
    Montagnier was nowhere to be seen, naturally !

    (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/s ... =firefox-a)

    To call Montagnier "courageous" is an insult to other scientists who have the courage of their ideas.

    The guy is the epitome of abject opportunism and he only cares about himself and his career, never mind the common good of the people.

    He could have supported both Benveniste and Beljansky when the establishment attacked them, at the same time rescuing thousands of condemned AIDS and cancer patients.

    He chose instead to remain silent.

    Now he's talking out of both corners of his mouth by sheer opportunism simply because the wind direction of public opinion swerved.

    So, there will be no surprise as to what follows:

    ( Declaration of Montagnier published in the article "HIV, HPV Researchers Honored, But One Scientist Is Left ", shortly after receiving the 2008 Nobel prize for his 1983 discovery of VIH ( and the 700.000 dollars he shared with another french scientist)

    and:

    (Des Virus et des hommes, 1994, p. 43)
     
  8. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    OK, then maybe Montagnier is simply an opportunistic businessman with a good science background. Who knows. I am not so much interested in Montagnier, as I am in the ideas he researches. Given that the other scientists that fought the battles on HIV and structured water didn't get far since they were ruthlessly repressed, maybe it takes a guy like Montagnier, who will be harder to discredit, to get these ideas in the scientific mainstream. Ultimately, the goal I think is to discover the truth. In this case it may take a cunning and opportunistic scientist, who has a Nobel Prize and can get these ideas the attention they deserve so that more people can take them seriously and work on them. China is obviously seeing some promise on those ideas, without a doubt out of opportunistic motivations as well. But I'd rather have a repressive country support a cunning businessman-scientist and get somewhere with the science rather than have honest people get crushed by the establishment and have their ideas relegated to a status of oblivion or quakery. Maybe that's too practical thinking...
    Of course, my hat is off to the actual courageous scientists who fought to keep these ideas alive.
    We'll see how this goes but I think China will leave no stone unturned to get some technological/medical advantage over the Western world.
     
  9. Rem

    Rem Member

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    There is one guy that strongly reminds me of Ray Peat, and he is American too, it's Eric Dollard.

    I think it's difficult for people not trained in electrical engineering to make strong opinions about his work ; the things that make me think of Ray Peat are the obvious anti-establishment attitude, and the historico-social review of scientific ideas ; just for that matter, it is really worth learning how he describes the advent of electricity, and his consequent anti Relativity & Quantum Mysticism positions.

    --

    Concerning structured water, there is a French guy from Strasbourg, Marc Henry, which makes very good research and communication on this subject, but I think the material is mostly in french. He has proposed what seems to be a good framework to understand how homeopathy works.
     
  10. mas

    mas Member

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    I found these homeopathy posts on the forum because I am now trying to find as much scientific information and research on homeopathy as I can.

    Thanks BurtL for that amazing post!!!!!

    Jaques Benveniste, Heretic video.

    http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xiqyt1 ... retic_tech


    Another sad story about how “science” and a desire to find out the truth gets crushed in the system.
     
  11. Waynish

    Waynish Member

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    Very strange!


    1) They're claiming this is the first research of its kind
    -- while also claiming they're continuing Benveniste's work (ignoring Shauberger)
    -- while ignoring homeopathy
    2) The documentary describes using HIV in the experiments. Does Luc now deny its causality or not?!
    3) The documentary mentions DNA in the experiments as being the source of all biological information - promoting the central dogma several times.
    4) Seeming attempt to co-opt the idea that microwave radiation effects cells
    5) "Please remove your cell phone battery because it will interfere with the experiment" -- meanwhile cables are everywhere without shielding, bright film lighting, laptops with WiFi, no room shielding, in room with windows & two open doors! The way Luc (translated) talks here is classic of a liar.

    They have water listening to the frequencies caused by the water's memory of the DNA of an HIV-infected patient! So after it "listening to HIV music" (LMAO), they describe their process:
    PCR process + water that listened to music made from HIV patient's DNA = reconstituted DNA? WTF is going on!? Now lets see the same PCR process without the special water!

    So they've reduced causality to genes, then reduced causality to mere "frequencies" (stored by water), and then reduced it even more to a frequency of a WAV stored in a computer! You can now reduce the cures to every disease: downloaded as MP3 would be a kilobyte! :poke:rollingred

    There is some serious obfuscation going on here - and few minds would be able to deduce all of it.
    Is this controlled opposition in action?


    A member of this forum with thousands of posts fervently believes HIV can cause AIDS? Any one of the 26 AIDS-defining illnesses, eh? I don't even know what to say... Nuts.
     
  12. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    The french hemophiliac scandal proved without any doubt there's an infectious agent at work.

    And keep in mind France is the only country where the guilty were punished with jail time: the same hemophiliac tragedy took place in almost every other country but the truth got squashed there.

    In China, there's a lady doctor who published a book about whole villages being wiped out by AIDS contamination following treatment of local hemophiliacs by tainted blood products, and got heavily persecuted for it.
     
  13. Waynish

    Waynish Member

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    That is such a non-answer to my comment, if you really read it. And no: blood transfusions can be bad for you without super secret impossible-to-isolate RNA viruses in it!
     
  14. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts.

    Contaminated haemophilia blood products - Wikipedia
    https://www.lesoir.be/art/%2Fm%2Fdeja-256-hemophiles-morts-du-sida-en-france-quatre-pers_t-19920622-Z05H04.html

    From the 2 thousands contaminated hemophiliacs in France, 256 already died 1-7 years after the inc1dent, while those uncontaminated kept living.

    A well-cared for hemophiliac can hope for an almost identical lifespan than normal people.

    Tough to argue with the facts.

    But i'm sure those looking to send people the wrong path will keep trying, since the hemophiliac scandal event represents a death sentence for the well-oiled Duesberg disinfo operation and thus no costs and efforts must be spared in attempting to discredit it.

    Got to do what you've got to do.
     
  15. Waynish

    Waynish Member

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    No respect for what the word "causality" means.
    -- Your stat isn't even surprising
    -- You're unwilling to face Koch's postulates
    -- I'm done with off topic conversation

    What Luc is up to in this strange documentary is of interest.
     
  16. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    This is one of the most ridiculous quotes on the forum.

    So your "big indictment" of Duesberg is that fact that an immunocompromised group of 2000 individuals had a 7 year survival rate of 87.2% AFTER receiving HIV tainted blood, with absolutely no control for age, or literally any other risk factor?

    Ridiculous.

    You don't even have to go farther than the CDC webpage to figure out why 15-20% of hemophillacs might die over a period as long as 7 years-

    What is Hemophilia? | CDC.

    "Inhibitors
    About 15-20 percent of people with hemophilia develop an antibody (called an inhibitor) that stops the clotting factors from being able to clot the blood and stop bleeding. Treatment of bleeding episodes becomes extremely difficult, and the cost of care for a person with an inhibitor can skyrocket because more clotting factor or a different type of clotting factor is needed. People with inhibitors often experience more joint disease and other problems from bleeding that result in a reduced quality of life."

    Did about 13% of those people develop that antibody and have a serious bleeding event over those 7 years?

    As you said, "Tough to argue with the facts."

    Blood transfusions always carry risk (just look up "transnational iron overload")

    I get that you don't like Duesberg, and don't believe in his theories. That's fair. But all his funding from the NIH has been cut, his peers have disowned him, he isn't allowed to publish in journals.

    Well oiled disinfo machine? LOL! The "HIV equals AIDS" theory is backed up by the US Federal Government, the NIH, the CDC, every major medical journal, state medical boards, the Main Stream Media, and almost every practicing doctor. Where, exactly, is this well oiled machine you speak of?

    There is no need to attack Duesberg on a personal level. Just attack his work. Post the study that can back up the claim "HIV is the Probable Cause of AIDS." Kary Mullis waited his whole life. I'm willing to respond when you do.

    EDIT- Of note, John Lauritsen of the New York Native interviewed Duesberg in 1987. Here is the link, for anyone interested-

    Interview with Prof. Peter Duesberg - Immunity Resource Foundation
     
  17. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    And the proof of these patients dying from these bleeding episodes (whether in presence or not of HIV contamination) is....where ?

    " if one excludes individuals with HIV and HCV disease, the SMR improves to 1.2 and general life expectancy for individuals with hemophilia approaches that of Dutch males in general – 74 years, when compared with 76 years. For those with severe disease, the SMR was 1.4 and the life expectancy 71 years. "

    And should these bleeding episodes prove fatal as you claimed, feel free to book a plane for France and ask for the resignation of grossly incompetent magistrates and doctors who all mistook death from infections with death from bleeding during an 11 year long judiciary procedure , unjustly condemning innocent government officials and doctors.

    Don't forget to bring Duesberg with you.

    So, one of the effects of hemophilia disease is to cause immuno suppression ?

    Rendering their life expectancy with modern treatments almost identical to normal people, except for a few years ? :roll:

    "Currently, children with hemophilia look forward to a normal life expectancy and excellent health-related quality of life [9]. Among 935 Dutch hemophilia patients, their view of the quality of their own health did not differ from the general Dutch population [10]. Importantly, although severity of hemophilia, arthropathy and age increased the risk of disability, home treatment was associated with a 50% reduction in this risk."

    And that's why they develop inhibitor antibodies to clotting factors ? (i mean, out of their non-existent/ badly compromised immune system) ?

    OKIE DOKIE :lol:
     
  18. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    You are on the side of the establishment here. Why don't you explain why these immuno-compromised patients lived about as long as they were expected to?

    I'm questioning how you think 87% of hemophiliacs who received HIV infected blood survived after 7 years is, in any way, proof that "HIV causes AIDS." Shouldn't it be more along the lines of 100% died within 2 years?

    Yep. Or, if not "causes," is absolutely a sign of immuno suppression.

    I want a source that claims hemophiliacs live as long as normal people.

    Cite your source, and let's discuss.
     
  19. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

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    Extraordinary to witness Duesberg-cult followers seriously arguing magistrates and doctors can mistake death from opportunistic infections with death from bleeding, during an 11 year long judicial procedure.

    One more fantastic claim to add to their remarkable group.
     
  20. tankasnowgod

    tankasnowgod Member

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    What does any of this even mean?

    Just prove Duesberg is wrong. You have the entirety of the Federal US Government (and literally billions upon billions of dollars) to back you up. Should be easy. So do it.
     
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