Low Testosterone Levels & Concerned

[Ben]

Haha yeah. Actually a google search "estrogen hypertrophy bodybuilding" should keep you engaged.

I have personally seen the labs of several of my bodybuilding and powerlifting friends complaining of low libido. Their T levels are often surprisingly low, with moderately high estrogen but with good free-T numbers and low SHBG.

I don't think I understand the mechanism of why estrogen aids hypertrophy but my guess would be that the induced swelling causes microruptures in the muscle tissue that once repaired result in a larger muscle. Regarding DHT, it would be an oversimplification to reduce its effects as purely an antagonism of estrogen. Incidentally, DHT also strongly inhibits prolactin. While it is true that the conventional thinking is that DHT is not anabolic, recent studies in mice have shown that mesterolone (Proviron) or 1-methyl DHT is clearly anabolic. In any case, experience shows that DHT and its derivatives are definitely anabolic.

Progesterone reduces both estrogen and DHT. I'm not sure about testosterone though. RP said this about progesterone:

"I have seen my own hairline move with changes in hormones, and I gave a progesterone solution to a couple of balding men who started growing hair in the front where it had receded . Since progesterone is a testosterone antagonist, it can cause the penis to shrink, and if DHEA is used with it to counteract that effect, there's the potential in hypothyroid people for the DHEA to be converted to estrogen. Progesterone's effect is very individual, and I think it's better to concentrate on correcting the basic metabolic processes that cause hair loss." - Ray Peat

"Rubbed into the scalp, with a little oil (or alcohol, if your skin is oily) it can help the hair without so much effect systemically. A large amount of it antagonizes testosterone, shrinks the penis like a cold shower (but doesn't prevent erections), and it can cause tightness of the ducts in ejaculation." - Ray Peat

If both DHT and estrogen decrease, then there is less HPG axis inhibition and testosterone increases. I'm not sure how progesterone impacts the HPG axis and testosterone production though. I know high doses of progesterone would slow or halt penis growth and voice deepening, functions of DHT, but those aren't important. I don't know if it would shrink my testicles or lower testosterone levels. RP said progesterone's action is highly specific, but I have clear indications of a low ratio of it to estrogen, and it would be useful.

 

[JD-Max]

Anti-aging docs that preface themselves as 'interventional' endocrinologists are usually game on doing a good workup of your labs, but they are usually private-only and costly. Most regular endos will tell you that you are just fine; that its all part of healthy aging. I guess you have to ferret out the ones that aren't quite so blase.

All the Endocrinologists that I find nearby seem to specialize in Adult Endocrinology, Diabetes & Pitiuitary disorders. Do you think that would work for starters? Also, you mention that most regular endos will say that I am just fine...could that be the case? That I just am someone that has lower than average T levels and may have most of my life without knowing. Or beings my total levels were at 252 I should definitely proceed with further testing? My wife is starting to make me double guess because she thinks I'm fine :?

Many body builders have lowish testosterone ~300 and still pack a good deal of muscle. Estrogen definitely helps with muscle hypertrophy. Also, certain hypothyroid people find it very easy to gain muscle, probably because of a very low SHBG and therefore high Bio-T.

This is very intersting, I would never guess bodybuilders with solid mass could ever have low T!

Those endos would be OK. Yes, I do think most of them will do a limited set of tests and find you falling 'within range', give you some encouragement and have you on your way.

Lowish T levels when you're otherwise fine respond well to stress reduction and measures to reduce estrogen. Perhaps you could try a month or two of extra zinc and see where you stand.

It's a shame there is not a way to weed out the good endos Vs the ones not well versed w/ male hormones! I feel like it's a one time shot for me to find the right one, especially beings I'm on an HMO plan and require referrals. I found a doc with good reviews on HealthGrades, no mention of hormones or male health though. Perhaps I should make an appointment with him for about a month out, take Zinc like you suggested and then see where my T levels are once he sends me out for lab work.

Any thoughts about T levels & magnesium? I've been thinking about taking it to help with headaches. I had that tested too and it came back 2.2mg/dl and their range is: 1.5-2.5

 

[JD-Max]

RP wrote in his March 2000 newsletter that the " polyunsaturated fats promote estrogen retention in the cell". You might be better off focusing on lowering estrogen especially since your wife has no complaints. Haidut posted on how he achieved higher testosterone through lowering estrogen.

Thanks for the suggestion, I plan to search the forum for that post! I think it'll be helpful for me to know where my estrogen is too, which I'm sure the endo will test.

 

[JD-Max]

You guys have been super helpful, I really appreciate the information!

 

[coloron]

Haha, I'm much younger than you and have about the same testosterone level as you do. Here's the thread I created about it:

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3049

I have decided not to go for testosterone replacement therapy. When you increase testosterone, estrogen also increases because estrogen is created from testosterone. Then estrogen reduces progesterone. I have a big problem with a poor progesterone-estrogen ratio and testosterone would only worsen it. One of my superficial indicators is blood pooling into limbs (bulging veins) and orthostatic hypotension. It has also resulted in rosacea and thyroid autoimmunity, both more common in women due to estrogen. Some more indicators are acne, dandruff, manboobs, and abdominal fat (like you) despite normal build. Testosterone would worsen acne and it's known for causing gynecomastia.

I plan on correcting the progesterone-estrogen ratio. I started taking progest-E, and I'll take vitamin E for estrogen once I buy it. I doubt the importance of testosterone anyway. Who needs muscle, masculinity, or aggression these days? Instead of these traits which are often disruptive to society, I think the body's energy would be better reserved for more important things.

While high estrogen often accompanies low testosterone (since estrogen is itself suppressive to the HPTA), high testosterone does not necessarily lead to high estrogen on account of merely an increased amount of substrate for aromatization. If the metabolic rate is good (low inflammation, adequate thyroid & progesterone levels, efficient gut), aromatization of testosterone to estrogen is limited. Indeed, that is the situation in the young and otherwise healthy.

Testosterone is not something you want to be low in. Besides aiding muscle growth that itself supports a healthy metabolism, it is a precursor to DHT that has important CNS activity and is a very potent antagonist of estrogen in itself. Low testosterone levels are associated with hypothyroidism.

Having said that, since many here have experimented with thyroid or pro-thyroid food or substances, they find that the initial increase in testosterone is too abrupt and not properly compensated by the hormones countervailing estrogen leading to a persistent estrogen-dominant state.

That sounds very wrong.
Do you have any link to the article or study that describes it?
I mean "a rapid increase in testosterone = estrogen dominance"
thank you!

 

[skycop00]

I am now 52 and been on TRT, arimidex and hcg for about 7 years. I am wanting to try to come off the testosterone and see what my bidy is capable of. I was secondary hypo, and any idea for the restart would be appreciated. The Dr has a protocol using clomid. IA am looking for some Peatarian ideas or anything that may make this transition successful.

 

[DaveFoster]

Has anyone tried applying progesterone to their testicles?

EDIT: Just did; wow. Very potent. 1 drop of Progestene's concentration and I'm relaxed.

 

[GorillaHead]

What would you guys say is the cause of my low testosterone at the age of 27.

I uploaded my tests.

 

[Frankdee20]

Nobody should be walking around with a 250 T level, even at age 75.... I had a 298 level at age 21, and they sent me home.... For years I’ve been walking around a fraction of what I could’ve been

 

[Chad_Catholic]

What would you guys say is the cause of my low testosterone at the age of 27.

I uploaded my tests.

Your test results look identical to the most recent test results. Did you ever resolve this issue and find out the cause?