Low Iron Levels

[Mito]

Popping a vitamin C supplement with any high iron meal might also help.

I think Vitamin C only helps with the abortion of plant iron because plant iron is in the ferric or oxidized form. Vitamin C reduces the ferric form to the absorbable ferrous form. Heme iron is already is the reduced ferrous form.

Consuming calcium with any kind of iron can inhibit its abortion.

 

[Regina]

Feeling well. Chicago's Gay Pride Parade was right outside my front door today. Walked a few miles and painted my window frames today. Maybe people don't need iron.
(not true. My energy is low. Not aikido-ready). I do wonder what levels Peat thinks are reasonable. And when he says that iron and copper fill in for each other, I am not sure the relationship. Is it 50/50 or more an antagonizing relationship or akin to estrogen-progesterone??

 

[Mito]

And when he says that iron and copper fill in for each other, I am not sure the relationship. Is it 50/50 or more an antagonizing relationship or akin to estrogen-progesterone??

Briefly talks about iron filling in for copper here:


And from Danny's weblog........

For what's it's worth, I asked Dr. Peat about good tests to evaluate the iron burden in 2012 and he replied:

I think the copper/iron ratio is under hormonal-developmental control, and I have never seen an attempt to use ceruloplasmin to guide nutrition. Regular good light exposure is probably important for preventing the displacement of copper by iron. —Raymond Peat, PhD

Although, Dr. Peat did mention more recently that an iron saturation level below 25% was protective against cancer, which appears to jive with the limited amount of data I've seen on the subject.

Iron Overload, Perturbed Redox Balance, and Meddling Serotonin

 

[Regina]

Briefly talks about iron filling in for copper here:


And from Danny's weblog........

For what's it's worth, I asked Dr. Peat about good tests to evaluate the iron burden in 2012 and he replied:

I think the copper/iron ratio is under hormonal-developmental control, and I have never seen an attempt to use ceruloplasmin to guide nutrition. Regular good light exposure is probably important for preventing the displacement of copper by iron. —Raymond Peat, PhD

Although, Dr. Peat did mention more recently that an iron saturation level below 25% was protective against cancer, which appears to jive with the limited amount of data I've seen on the subject.

Iron Overload, Perturbed Redox Balance, and Meddling Serotonin

Mito, Thank you so much for taking the time to share this detailed response.
I do wish Peat had specified what he meant by diet recommendations guided by ceruloplasmin. I don't know what to make of my "27mg/dl" in a test range of "18-53mg/dl".
There is definitely something anti-respiratory going on with me. But too much iron is not the source of my oxidative stress.
I still don't know what is causing my raging norepinephrine and exercise intolerance. My low prolactin suggest that it is not estrogen.
Haidut said, "Both copper and iron are pretty important for the cathecolamine system and especially NE levels." But I am not able to eek out where is the derangement. You know, so many google searches contradict each other.
Ray says, "..I think the copper/iron ratio is under hormonal-developmental control..." . But does not say what a good ratio might be or expand on the meaning of 'hormonal-developmental control' in this context.
Genius's can be vague. And I'm a bit thick.
Thanks so much for your thoughts! And great Danny Roddy article!

 

[Mito]

I still don't know what is causing my raging norepinephrine

Possibly a back up in the metabolism of Norepinephrine? Looks like the enzymes PNMT, COMT, and MAO are involved. Not sure if the size of the arrows below indicates the strongest pathways, but if so, MAO maybe most important? According to Haidut in this post (Ethanol Intoxication / Sedation Caused By Adrenaline) salt can inhibit the PNMT enzyme which converts Norepinephrine to Epinephrine (if your Epinephrine is too low). Not sure if you've done your 23andMe SNP's? Variants in the COMT and MAO SNPs can increase the risk of decreased COMT and MAO enzyme activity.

And if MAO activity is low, then most of your Dompamine might be going down the Norepinephrine pathway via the DBH enzyme rather than the other path through MAO.

 

[Regina]

Possibly a back up in the metabolism of Norepinephrine? Looks like the enzymes PNMT, COMT, and MAO are involved. Not sure if the size of the arrows below indicates the strongest pathways, but if so, MAO maybe most important? According to Haidut in this post (Ethanol Intoxication / Sedation Caused By Adrenaline) salt can inhibit the PNMT enzyme which converts Norepinephrine to Epinephrine (if your Epinephrine is too low). Not sure if you've done your 23andMe SNP's? Variants in the COMT and MAO SNPs can increase the risk of decreased COMT and MAO enzyme activity.
View attachment 5774
And if MAO activity is low, then most of your Dompamine might be going down the Norepinephrine pathway via the DBH enzyme rather than the other path through MAO.
View attachment 5776

Wow Mito! Thank you so much for putting this together. Great minds think alike because this is pretty much what haidut said: "Well, it suggests you are breaking down dopamine too fast into norepinephrine. This is the enzyme that is probably overactive in your system.
Dopamine beta-hydroxylase - Wikipedia
And he further said: "I think you are producing plenty of dopamine, it just goes down the norepinephrine pathway pretty quickly. Inhibiting that mono-oxygenase enzyme is one possibility but I would try to find out what is causing its overactivation. Have you had tests for copper and iron? If not, I would recomment getting some tests for serum iron, ferritin, transferrin, iron saturation, serum copper, and ceruloplasmin. Both copper and iron are pretty important for the cathecolamine system and especially NE levels."
I'm not sure how low iron levels plays into this. Is it causing the over-action??
Maybe I could find something akin to this: nepicastat
Catecholamine modulatory effects of nepicastat (RS-25560-197), a novel, potent and selective inhibitor of dopamine-β-hydroxylase
Perhaps naturally, dietary or IdeaLabs-ish.
Thanks!!
p.s. I'm kinda thinking lithium for the win.

 

[Mito]

And he further said: "I think you are producing plenty of dopamine, it just goes down the norepinephrine pathway pretty quickly. Inhibiting that mono-oxygenase enzyme is one possibility but I would try to find out what is causing its overactivation.

Is Haidut saying that you want to inhibit the the mono-oxygenase enzymes or that the reason for your high NE is that your mono-oxygenase enzymes are being inhibited by something? Wouldn't you want to increase both COMT and MAO enzymes? That way more Dopamine goes down the MAO path to Dopal instead of the DBH path to NE. And COMT and MAO are both in pathways that metabolize NE.

 

[Regina]

Is Haidut saying that you want to inhibit the the mono-oxygenase enzymes or that the reason for your high NE is that your mono-oxygenase enzymes are being inhibited by something? Wouldn't you want to increase both COMT and MAO enzymes? That way more Dopamine goes down the MAO path to Dopal instead of the DBH path to NE. And COMT and MAO are both in pathways that metabolize NE.

I have to plead ignorance .
I found my 23nMe and I do have rs4680(G;G) which is a COMT gene.??
And also rs909525(A;A) which is an MAO but apparently "A's" aren't as bad???

But in the bad news, I got gs141, which is one APOE-4-one APOE-3. ???
And one copy of H63D, carrier of hemochromatosis. (lol)
Thx!!

 

[Mito]

I have to plead ignorance .
I found my 23nMe and I do have rs4680(G;G) which is a COMT gene.??
And also rs909525(A;A) which is an MAO but apparently "A's" aren't as bad???

You can google "selfdecode rs4680" or "selfdecode rs909525" to read about the variants. SelfDecode | Genome Analysis

I think RS6323 is the important MAO-A (TT) one that increases chances of low enzyme activity that could be backing up your NE metabolic pathways.

 

[Regina]

You can google "selfdecode rs4680" or "selfdecode rs909525" to read about the variants. SelfDecode | Genome Analysis

I think RS6323 is the important MAO-A (TT) one that increases chances of low enzyme activity that could be backing up your NE metabolic pathways.
View attachment 5789

thx

 

[Regina]

In, When energy fails: Edema, heart failure, hypertension, sarcopenia, etc.
- Ray says, "We are susceptible to many things that interfere with energy production---the substitution of iron for copper in the respiratory enzyme,....".

For me, this is just a clue. I would love to understand it more.

 

[Mito]

Ray says, "We are susceptible to many things that interfere with energy production---the substitution of iron for copper in the respiratory enzyme,....".

I'm not exactly sure what he means, but here is a guess........In energy metabolism, copper and iron are important in the function of cytochrome c oxidase (complex IV) in the election transport chain. This is the last complex before ATP synthase and creation of energy (ATP).

Why copper is preferred over iron for oxygen activation and reduction in haem-copper oxidases

http://twin.sci-hub.ac/c4c09eccb3a3d72f13e983f9c755b5f8/bhagidamodaran2016.pdf

Conclusion
The reduction of oxygen to water requires fast and concomitant electron transfer as well as efficient O–O bond cleavage46,47. Our results show that copper is superior to iron in promoting both faster electron transfer by possessing a higher E°′ (and thus driving force for the electron transfer) and by weakening the O–O bond, which makes it an appropriate choice as the non-haem metal in HCOs. In fact, a comparison of copper with other 3d transition metals suggest that it is the only metal in the group that is both redox active and contains the maximum number of d elec- trons for O–O bond activation. This direct comparison of the effect of Cu and Fe in promoting O2 reduction in the same protein scaffold with an otherwise identical active site has allowed us to provide direct evidence as to why nature prefers copper over iron in oxidase activity and the reasons behind such a choice. By providing a functional basis for the choice of copper (over iron) in HCOs, these results also attempt to address important questions in the field of evolutionary biology regarding the biochemical changes that occurred as Earth’s anaerobic atmosphere became oxygen rich48. We anticipate our work to be a starting point for more-focused efforts directed towards understanding nature’s choice of specific metal ions for various biochemical reactions that can aid the design of novel catalysts required in alternative energy technologies and other industrial applications.

 

[Regina]

I'm not exactly sure what he means, but here is a guess........In energy metabolism, copper and iron are important in the function of cytochrome c oxidase (complex IV) in the election transport chain. This is the last complex before ATP synthase and creation of energy (ATP).

View attachment 5859

Why copper is preferred over iron for oxygen activation and reduction in haem-copper oxidases

http://twin.sci-hub.ac/c4c09eccb3a3d72f13e983f9c755b5f8/bhagidamodaran2016.pdf

Conclusion
The reduction of oxygen to water requires fast and concomitant electron transfer as well as efficient O–O bond cleavage46,47. Our results show that copper is superior to iron in promoting both faster electron transfer by possessing a higher E°′ (and thus driving force for the electron transfer) and by weakening the O–O bond, which makes it an appropriate choice as the non-haem metal in HCOs. In fact, a comparison of copper with other 3d transition metals suggest that it is the only metal in the group that is both redox active and contains the maximum number of d elec- trons for O–O bond activation. This direct comparison of the effect of Cu and Fe in promoting O2 reduction in the same protein scaffold with an otherwise identical active site has allowed us to provide direct evidence as to why nature prefers copper over iron in oxidase activity and the reasons behind such a choice. By providing a functional basis for the choice of copper (over iron) in HCOs, these results also attempt to address important questions in the field of evolutionary biology regarding the biochemical changes that occurred as Earth’s anaerobic atmosphere became oxygen rich48. We anticipate our work to be a starting point for more-focused efforts directed towards understanding nature’s choice of specific metal ions for various biochemical reactions that can aid the design of novel catalysts required in alternative energy technologies and other industrial applications.

Thanks so much for digging in Mito!! Thx for the study (sending it to print). If ceruloplasmin is a guide to nutrition, my "27" in a "18 - 53" range is a tad low. I'm taking a conservative approach I think.
6 Dr. Ron's Liver/thyroid pills with breakfast and tend toward shellfish for dinner. I will be interested in seeing if I move the needle on my ferritin/iron stores and ceruloplasmin when I soon re-test.

 

[Regina]

Hello All, Here are the results of new bloodwork I had done yesterday. It's confirmed that I am still a zombie.
What do I do? Thank you

 

[Regina]

I did aikido tonight!!! Not taking a victory lap yet.
But I think whether I can get through a class or not is a good indication of my "iron" status.
So, this was my second attempt in 4 months and I got through it.
n=1

 

[tomisonbottom]

I did aikido tonight!!! Not taking a victory lap yet.
But I think whether I can get through a class or not is a good indication of my "iron" status.
So, this was my second attempt in 4 months and I got through it.
n=1

How is it going with the iron status? Did you ever supplement?

 

[Regina]

How is it going with the iron status? Did you ever supplement?

Hi, I seem to be doing pretty well. I trained tonight and last night.
To be honest, (by that I mean, don't necessarily do what I do) I ignored the iron status. I did not supplement any iron.
I chose Lisuride and breathing exercises (misogi no ho) and an increase of magnesium and a bit of potassium.
I have not done any new bloodwork but feel my energy levels are okay. I don't feel compelled to re-test.
?