Low Iodine Levels In Vast Majority Of Population?

Amazoniac

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Correcting an iodine deficiency has to be a slow process due to the possibility of some derangement because of the prolonged stress of not getting enough. The thyroid becomes very avid in picking up iodine during the deficiency, Rayzord commented about the hyperthyroidism of repletion. If you overwhelm the capability for regeneration, you start stressing the gland even more and likely making problems worse than before. Abrupt changes are overlooked in supplementation, but you have to allow to body to adapt by a gradual change; gurus go from nothing to all.

It's different getting iodine from seaweed and a purified supplement:
"Asian cultures, seaweed is commonly cooked with foods containing goitrogens such as broccoli, cabbage, bok choi and soy [18]. The phytochemicals in these foods can competitively inhibit iodine uptake by the thyroid gland (i.e., isothiocyanates from cruciferous vegetables) [53-55], or inhibit incorporation of iodine into thyroid hormone (i.e., soy isoflavones) [56,57].

Certain species of seaweed can concentrate bromine, a halide similar to iodine with no known physiological function, at very high levels [58,59]."​

A recipe for fried thyroid is taking massive amounts of iodine during a selenium deficiency or excess.

Selenium deficiency mitigates hypothyroxinemia in iodine-deficient subjects.

I believe iodine is used up quickly during infections, prolonged inflammation leads to storage of iron and in turn copper is increased along and won't be as available for other functions to protect the person from the excess deposition of iron. This seems to be what happens when chronic inflammation sets in: a person has excess copper but can't use it. That must be the copper toxicity that hair mineral analysts, orthomoleculars, etc, notice in patients.

Perinatal Iron and Copper Deficiencies Alter Neonatal Rat Circulating and Brain Thyroid Hormone Concentrations

"Interestingly, Cu deficiency reduced serum total T4 by 21% (P = 0.06) and Fe deficiency reduced serum total T4 by 67% compared with controls in P12 pups (Fig. 2A2A).). In addition, both Cu deficiency (48% reduction) and Fe deficiency (43% reduction) significantly reduced serum total T3 concentrations (Fig. 2B2B)."​

Taurine and glycine are depleted in chronic inflammation as well. They play a role in immunity and are involved in proper functioning of proteins. Zeus created a thread about taurine being useful in detoxifying fluoride. You can expect all sorts of deragements from these two deficiencies, which can reflect in inefficient use of iodine.
 
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Waynish

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Any ideas why hashimotos and celiacs get muscle tightness and hyperthyroid symptoms from taking iodine - and how to make taking it safer for them?
 

schultz

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It's different getting iodine from seaweed and a purified supplement:

Ah yes, that's an excellent point (the goitrogen comment). That sort of skews the data a bit as one would have to estimate goitrogen intake in populations as well as iodine intake.
 

Amazoniac

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if the gland is very big, the person can experience a few months of hyperthyroidism, as the gland returns to normal. It is better to allow the enlarged gland to shrink more slowly by using a thyroid supplement. If an enlarged gland does begin to secrete too much thyroid hormone, it can be controlled with tablets of propylthiouracil, or even with raw cabbage or cabbage juice, and cysteine-rich meats, including liver.
Making the hormone from scratch is a controlled stress: too little or too much of the involved nutrients and it can become uncontrolled and cause damage.
 
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Amazoniac

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To summarize in honor of Tarmander (because he's the master of trimming and decluttering):
- First, there was the assumption that Japanese ingest around 12mg of iodine each day, which I posted that link showing that it's a gross owaestimation. It's more like 1-2mg, the difference is not that much though, just a Travis' hyphen.
- Second, ingesting seaweed is different than supplementing purified iodine. The same link discussed that seaweed can contain minerals that compete with iodine. From those 1-2mg, you have a excremI mean, a decrement. Well, perhaps there's indeed a bit of excrement from tiny animals but nothing compared to the crappy industrial contamination.
- Third, they consume goitrogenic foods whereas many forum members avoid them at all costs, so the excess won't be balanced at any point.
- Fourth, despite all that, even amongst healthy Japanese gurus, thyroid disruption is common. It's reversible most of the time but it's an indicator of unnecessary stress.
- Fifth, there are many members from the US and A, which has the highest rate of thyroid problems if I'm not wrong. Whatever is causing it, it's worth being cautious about anything that can stress the thyroid. Massive iodine supplementation from Lugol's solution can be dangerous in such situation.
- Sixth, many members are (as well) stuck in an inefficient state. If many come from a background of a high-risk population and are stuck in that state, it's one more reason to be careful with excessive supplementation.
- Seventh, as posted above, massive doses are not the safest ways to replete the body.
I'm stopping here not only because I don't have anything else to add but also because I don't know the next ordinal form, I would have to confirm on Google.
 
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Amazoniac

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Gerson wrote a great deal about iodine in his book favoring its use. He never gave it alone though, it was always combined with thyroid supplements. According to him, the thyroid came first, then came iodine: there has to be some value to it. Supplemental thyroid should have a stabilizing effect and help the person handle iodine better. On top of that sparing the thyroid from the stress of making the hormones from scratch.

"Iodine is a decisive factor in the normal differentiation of cells, and can be used in order to counteract the decrease of cell differentiation as seen in the cancerous tissues. Iodine is also regarded as counteracting some adrenal hormones."

"There is no doubt that the iodine is attracted with particular force by the normal thyroid, but less so in hypo- as well as hyperthyroidism. In both, the iodine content is decreased in the thyroid, in hyperthyroidism even up to 1/10th of the normal. The difference is that blood iodine is markedly elevated in most cases of hyperthyroidism while it is decreased in hypothyroidism. Another element, which is very near to the positive head of the series is ionized calcium. Calcium was always found greatly accumulated in the thyroid by biochemic essay and by microchemical incineration. According to the textbook on biochemistry by Oppenheimer, Aron and Gralka, nearly 40 mgm. per cent was present in 100 grams which means rather more in mols than the normal thyroid stores I plus Na. Then follows bromine, which Tanino has found in thyroids of corpses of hospital patients to be accumulated in twenty-fold amount of iodine, if the patients had received bromides during their disease. The bromine content of the thyroid is a maximum in comparison to other organs with one exception: the wall of the aorta."
The way I could think about explaining this is because disturbance in thyroid wasn't caused by a deficiency of iodine, which is Ray's point as well. When it's a deficiency of iodine, the thyroid should become avid for it.

"In my opinion it must be assumed, as a rule, that sodium and iodine favor undifferentiated, quicker growth, seen in embryos and cancer; while potassium and iodine assure a more differentiated slower growth with normal cell division."

"Gudenath's tadpole experiment has suggested that iodine is necessary for higher differentiation and increased oxidation and could be used for that reason against cancer development, but not alone."

"Iodine is applied in two forms: as thyroid in organic composition, and as lugol in inorganic combination. Thyroid is administered in relatively high doses (one gr. five times daily) during the first three to four weeks, then five times one-half gr. daily, and later three times daily one-half gr. When the B.M.R. and P.B.I. remain normal for a period of three to four months, thyroid medication should be discontinued.
Lugol solution (always use half strength) given during the first weeks in larger doses three drops six times daily has been proved to be a favorable iodine combination for this therapeutic purpose. Lugol solution contains five per cent iodine, ten per cent potassium iodide in water. According to Holler and Singer,188 iodine invades cancer tumors when inflamed, not otherwise."

"It is assumed that iodine is necessary in the control of normal cell differentiation. Experiments on cancer cultures demonstrated that smaller iodine doses made the cancer cells grow more rapidly. A larger dose (such as is used at the beginning) is favorable in inhibiting any excessive growth. Some patients-about 20 per cent also need some additional thyroid doses later. These are mainly those who have a higher percentage of lymphocytes or show adipositas with a low Basal Metabolism Rate."​
 

Sheila

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Dear Amazoniac

Thank you so much for your thoughts and text extractions, this has been most helpful for me and I appreciate your time and devotion here.
Which Gerson book did you refer to please? I would like to read more of his thoughts as all this is finally beginning to make sense and has implications downwind for some of those with proliferative issues that I care about.

All power to you, many thanks,

Sheila
 

dookie

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@Sheila
I'm not sure I totally understand. Was the iodine estrogenic or anti-estrogenic in your case? If iodine only helps "when conditions are right", like when estrogen is low, then clearly it is not anti-estrogenic. But then how do you say it helps with "fibrocystic breast disease", which is an estrogen-driven condition? And you compare it to mercury, so do you consider it very toxic?

@Amazoniac
The problem is many members find thyroid estrogenic. So if iodine is similar to that, then it wouldn't help those members. Also I'm not sure about the theory of taking one thing to balance the side-effects of another thing. If iodine by itself causes massive side-effects and is risky, then I don't think taking thyroid would with it would make it more pleasant. I had horrible experience combining supplements. Trust me, they don't cancel each other out, the side-effects of each thing are usually amplified when you start mixing medications. Are you using thyroid, or iodine yourself?
 

Mito

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Supplemental thyroid should have a stabilizing effect and help the person handle iodine better. On top of that sparing the thyroid from the stress of making the hormones from scratch.
Seems like an important (and maybe obvious) distinction between supplementing with only iodine vs supplementing with only thyroid (or thyroid+iodine) to achieve the euthyroid state. What are the potential negative consequences of driving the thyroid gland to make more thyroid from scratch when supplementing iodine alone? Maybe those consequences increase with age?
 

Sheila

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Hello dear Dookie,

I am sorry that I was not clear.

Based on my personal, and other experiences, I think iodine is probably effective for fibrocystic breast disease but.....dose, duration and the personal context remain important, I don't think it's a panacea. I certainly over did it in my ignorance. Is it as toxic as mercury, no, I am sorry to have misled there with adjacent sentences, I didn't mean that; I meant that mercury was claimed as a panacea way back until more was known about it. So one can't always rely on old reports. We know more about iodine now, but not necessarily the breadth of its usefulness in maybe acute situations. I have read the reports of what is was used for way back but not the detail of how, and how long it was used and in the context of the time. And the devil is in the detail.

Now how does it work in breasts - by reducing oestrogen load, or promoting increased metabolism through thyroid stimulation, or disinfecting gut pathogens or all of the above - the more I think about it now, I can't entirely say. That may be a failure of my understandings. If like thyroid, iodine's use dislodges oestrogen towards a liver that may, or may not have the capacity to adequately detoxify the load, one might get the opposite of an anti-oestrogen effect in terms of symptoms. I think that's perhaps the same issue when progesterone causes water retention etc. It's not necessarily the progesterone per se, it's just that whatever is needed to assure its full function isn't available/optimal and you get lowered metabolism symptoms (also considered over-oestrogenic). I suspect that if thyroid and iodine get stopped at the same choke point, you would increase side effects combining the two, just as you have suggested with other combinations.

Have you read of the people who notice nothing almost regardless of what they take? Or perhaps one day of positive effects then nothing? That to me suggests a choke point that is profound and/or the body lowers metabolism on purpose as a protective measure since energy is so scarce. William Koch suggested that this state had unresolved pathogens and their waste at its core. Goodness knows what iodine would do in such people and I would not be game to find out.

I suspect that like most supplementation, an element can only really help sustainably (as in long term, not necessarily taken long term) when the conditions are right. So initially high iodine supplementation 'helped' but later on the opposite was true for me.

I trust I have helped, not confused further. My understandings are always a work in progress.
Best regards
Sheila
 
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Amazoniac

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@Amazoniac
The problem is many members find thyroid estrogenic. So if iodine is similar to that, then it wouldn't help those members. Also I'm not sure about the theory of taking one thing to balance the side-effects of another thing. If iodine by itself causes massive side-effects and is risky, then I don't think taking thyroid would with it would make it more pleasant. I had horrible experience combining supplements. Trust me, they don't cancel each other out, the side-effects of each thing are usually amplified when you start mixing medications. Are you using thyroid, or iodine yourself?
Travisord was talking about deconstructing the words being distractive, but I think limiting the effects as estrogenic is just as distractive to the fact it can be better reframed as stressful as a result of something like improper dosage or lack of support.
I'm not suggesting to combine them, my opinion was on the previous post. However if someone insists on massive iodine supplementation to recover a suppressed metabolism, then I think it's safer when combined with thyroid hormones, perhaps even some drops of waynisherol.
Sometimes I use pboyodine, but little.
Seems like an important (and maybe obvious) distinction between supplementing with only iodine vs supplementing with only thyroid (or thyroid+iodine) to achieve the euthyroid state. What are the potential negative consequences of driving the thyroid gland to make more thyroid from scratch when supplementing iodine alone? Maybe those consequences increase with age?
Because it actually involves oxidative stress. When the thyroid is injured or vulnerable, everything that excites has the risk of creating more problems than before.
 

Saphire

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I've also read Dr Brownstein's work, as well as work by Drs Guy E Abraham and Jorge Flechas in a similar vein. Lugol's was widely utilized for all manner of ailments in the late 19th and early 20th centuries before the rise of antibiotics and other patented pharmaceuticals, at doses that would seem completely insane by the standards currently adopted in mainstream (and alternative) medicine. My own experience has been similar to yours, in that I was initially reluctant to take larger doses of Lugol's or nascent iodine for fear that it would inhibit my thyroid function, but I found that after a period of a week or two, wherein I had fluctuations in body temperature and an increase in acne lesions, I experienced very obvious benefits in just about every aspect of my health and well-being. The history of iodine's medicinal use is extremely fascinating, and the Wolff-Chaikoff effect, which is what Ray seems to base his disdain for large doses of iodine on, seems to fall apart as a plausible hypothesis on even a cursory examination of clinical reality. It's true that taking a huge bolus of iodine out of the blue can suppress the thyroid in the short term, but the effect is transient and the thyroid adapts over the course of days and weeks to the larger supply of iodine, eventually up-regulating hormone production again, often to a point higher than baseline. It's something like putting a huge quantity of firewood on a dwindling fire; if you put too much too fast you can smother it, but if you add it in slowly and keep the air flow going (something like a sound diet and a pro-metabolic lifestyle), it will eventually consume the fresh wood and become a far larger, hotter flame than it was before. That's my pet hypothesis, at least. An interesting overview of the history and physiological effects of large doses of iodine can be found here:

The Safe and Effective Implementation of Orthoiodosupplementation In Medical Practice, Guy. E. Abraham M.D.

Anecdotally, I took 25-50mg of Lugol's iodine for about 10 months straight and didn't have any worrisome side effects outside of the first two weeks or so. I did notice, however, that the quality of my skin improved, the quality of my circulation improved, my hair seemed to become more buoyant and thick (though only slightly, my hair has never been an issue), I found that I was able to put on muscle mass more easily (which is interesting, because essentially all of the early bodybuilding protein powders had some concentrated source of iodine in them, and in the early 20th century iodine was sold as a muscle building tonic, see picture below), I felt that my mental acuity improved slightly, and my emotional stability seemed to improve a bit as well. I've since started using nascent iodine suspended in glycerin, and generally only take a 3-4 milligrams, 5-7 days per week.

I'm quite convinced that the excess of bromide and fluoride in our environments is an underappreciated cause of dysfunction throughout all of the body's systems, and the notion that iodine is primarily (or only) important for the thyroid is preposterous and untrue. The markedly increased excretion of bromide and fluoride in the urine following therapeutic iodine doses has been documented by many physicians. Women, in particular, seem to benefit tremendously from "thyroid suppressive" levels of iodine supplementation, especially if they have fibrotic breast tissue or other precancerous conditions where the action of estrogen is very pronounced. Iodine is one of the most potent (and safest) anti-estrogens available. Brownstein has some interesting data on that, as I recall. Studying medical history and reading the works of iodine-savvy physicians, coupled with my own experiences and the experiences of family members, leave me in no doubt that iodine well beyond what Ray recommends can be healthful. Individual dosages will always be a matter of personal experimentation, so I would hesitate to make any sweeping recommendations. Just read the literature before you start swallowing half a bottle of Lugol's every day, as the need for certain vitamins and minerals can increase when taking large doses of

I deal with Estrogen dominance. I started taking 50mg of lugols 2 days ago and my estrogen shot through the roof. Breast tenderness, 3 lbs water retention. Should I continue? Also were you taking 50 mg every day for 10 months? I had already been taking the selenium and ado cofactors before starting.
 

Saphire

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I deal with Estrogen dominance. I started taking 50mg of lugols 2 days ago and my estrogen shot through the roof. Breast tenderness, 3 lbs water retention. Should I continue? Also were you taking 50 mg every day for 10 months? I had already been taking the selenium and ado cofactors before starting.
 

Sepulchrave

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According to a study conducted by the Japanese Government, the Japanese_do_ consume about 12 mg of iodine per day from approximately 5g of dried seaweed.

@Joeyd, thank you for posting this thread. I was having a hard time concentrating this morning with lots of unwanted thoughts. I remembered the dehydrated seaweed that I had bought and never tried, after coming across your thread. I ate a mouthful and felt much better.
 

Travis

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Hello dear Dookie,

I am sorry that I was not clear.

Based on my personal, and other experiences, I think iodine is probably effective for fibrocystic breast disease but.....dose, duration and the personal context remain important, I don't think it's a panacea. I certainly over did it in my ignorance. Is it as toxic as mercury, no, I am sorry to have misled there with adjacent sentences, I didn't mean that; I meant that mercury was claimed as a panacea way back until more was known about it. So one can't always rely on old reports. We know more about iodine now, but not necessarily the breadth of its usefulness in maybe acute situations. I have read the reports of what is was used for way back but not the detail of how, and how long it was used and in the context of the time. And the devil is in the detail.

Now how does it work in breasts - by reducing oestrogen load, or promoting increased metabolism through thyroid stimulation, or disinfecting gut pathogens or all of the above - the more I think about it now, I can't entirely say. That may be a failure of my understandings. If like thyroid, iodine's use dislodges oestrogen towards a liver that may, or may not have the capacity to adequately detoxify the load, one might get the opposite of an anti-oestrogen effect in terms of symptoms. I think that's perhaps the same issue when progesterone causes water retention etc. It's not necessarily the progesterone per se, it's just that whatever is needed to assure its full function isn't available/optimal and you get lowered metabolism symptoms (also considered over-oestrogenic). I suspect that if thyroid and iodine get stopped at the same choke point, you would increase side effects combining the two, just as you have suggested with other combinations.

Have you read of the people who notice nothing almost regardless of what they take? Or perhaps one day of positive effects then nothing? That to me suggests a choke point that is profound and/or the body lowers metabolism on purpose as a protective measure since energy is so scarce. William Koch suggested that this state had unresolved pathogens and their waste at its core. Goodness knows what iodine would do in such people and I would not be game to find out.

I suspect that like most supplementation, an element can only really help sustainably (as in long term, not necessarily taken long term) when the conditions are right. So initially high iodine supplementation 'helped' but later on the opposite was true for me.

I trust I have helped, not confused further. My understandings are always a work in progress.
Best regards
Sheila
I did look into this a bit, and molecular iodine (I₂) was indicated for breast cancer by Brownstein and crew based on the results of in vitro cell studies. But there is a problem with this: Molecular iodine will react with vitamin C, be reduced by thiols, and can add to unsaturated fatty acids—meaning its most likely absorbed mostly as iodide (I⁻) and small amounts of iodinated lipids. The Brownstein & Flechas party line is that we should buy overpriced Lugol's tablets because 'we need both forms' and that 'the breast needs iodine,' but I am fairly certain that any ingested or topical I₂ will never reach the breast as such—based on pharmacological studies and other considerations.

It's actually quite easy to understand why I₂ works on isolated breast cancer cell lines and I⁻ does not. Molecular iodine (I₂) will add to any double bond, including arachidonic acid. This would result in iodinated arachidonic acid that cannot form prostaglandin E₂. Now besides ornithine decarboxylase and polyamines, the №2 cancer inducer in isolated cells can probably fairly be taken to be the eicosanoids. Both prostaglandin E₂ and leukotriene B₄ appear to be carcinogenic, and go on to activate PPARs and various G protein‐coupled receptors—shifting the transcriptome in a way which ends in cellular proliferation. This has been consistently demonstrated in very many studies; some of the best come from David Rose:

Rose, David P. "Dietary fatty acids and cancer." The American journal of clinical nutrition (1997)
Rose, David P. "Differential expression and regulation of cyclooxygenase-1 and-2 in two human breast cancer cell lines." Cancer research (1996)

The iodide ion (I⁻) does not inhibit cancer to the same extent as iodine (I₂) because it's incapable of adding to the lipid double bond.

So I think that molecular iodine (I₂) can only work locally, and should only be particularly useful for accessible tumors; this is simply too reactive to diffuse very far (note the skin discoloration and disappearance thereof). I also think that limiting linoleic acid would be helpful for the same reason reason that molecular iodine would be: to reduce eicosanoid production. But I don't think taking I₂ internally would be any better than simply taking potassium iodide or kelp (I have taken all three), although I₂ is probably safe in moderation (but can be expected to form numerous side products whenever it reacts with a double bond, even cyclic ones). The thyroid has a high capacity for the I⁻ ion and can only hold so much, and too much can actually increase lipid peroxidation which could potentially lead to decreased thyroid hormone synthesis in the long run. Peripherally: iodide (I⁻) can probably be expected to help displace any stray bromide (Br⁻) or fluoride (F⁻) ions but it appears to act like a general anesthetic in its own right, just like bromide and fluoride—only weaker. All general anesthetics appear to work by intercolating into microtubules and disrupting Förster resonance energy transfer through quenching, slowing nerve velocity as do opiates yet through a different mechanism (which work through dopamine regulation). Iodide (I⁻) is certainly important but I think Brownstein & Flechas exaggerate a bit because they have patents and can be considered iodine salesmen in a way. Ray Peat seems to take a hyperconservative approach—perhaps to distance himself from the other two—and recommends essentially the same low amount that the IOM does. I think the Japanese prove that something around one milligram of iodide (I⁻) per day is safe, but anything above this could perhaps overload the thyroid and slow nerve conduction.. .
 
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Travis

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According to a study conducted by the Japanese Government, the Japanese_do_ consume about 12 mg of iodine per day from approximately 5g of dried seaweed.
Where?
 

CaseyL

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I deal with Estrogen dominance. I started taking 50mg of lugols 2 days ago and my estrogen shot through the roof. Breast tenderness, 3 lbs water retention. Should I continue? Also were you taking 50 mg every day for 10 months? I had already been taking the selenium and ado cofactors before starting.
I don't think it's a good idea to start taking that high of a dose right out of the gate, especially if you're dealing with some chronic health issues. That's why I made the cautionary statement that one ought to read the literature first, because it's always recommended to ramp up from a small dose, especially in those with a hypothyroid metabolism. I'm a young, fairly healthy young man and I started at 12.5mg/day Lugol's for a week or so, and moved up to 50mg/day within the next two weeks. I then took 25-50mg per day for about 10 months, based largely on a sense of intuition, probably averaging about 35mg/day.

My mother, who has similar issues, also tried the Lugol's and we started her at much lower doses than me, about 1mg/day before eventually ramping up to 50mg/day over the course of about 2 months. We have since backed off her dosage so that she takes a few drops of Nascent iodine a few times per week. Overall the iodine has helped her quite a bit with her hypothyroid symptoms, breast discomfort, etc. I now take about 3mg of Nascent iodine a few times per week.

@Travis Interesting, thanks for the insights. This dovetails nicely with my own experience.
 

Sheila

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Thank you Mr Travis, most interesting indeed. I appreciate your time to educate me/us.
Sincerely,
Sheila
 

Philomath

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Yes, that quote is very telling:

Some 50 years ago, Nobel laureate Albert Szent Györgyi, the physician who discovered vitamin C in 1928 and who was a medical student in the early 1900s, wrote:23

“When I was a medical student, iodine in the form of KI was the universal medicine. Nobody knew what it did, but it did something and did something good. We students used to sum up the situation in this little rhyme: ‘If ye don’t know where, what, and why, prescribe ye then K and I.’ Our medical predecessors, possessing very few and crude instruments only, had to make use of two given by nature (the use of which has since gone out of fashion): eyes and brains. They were keen observers and the universal application of iodide might have been not without foundation.”
The History of Iodine in Medicine Part I: From Discovery to Essentiality, Guy E. Abraham, M.D.
@burtlancast do you supplement with Iodine? If so, how often?
 

burtlancast

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@burtlancast do you supplement with Iodine? If so, how often?

I was supplementing for a single week, five years ago, after reading accounts of Abraham's research from Elaine Hollingsworth's book "Take control of your health".

The next chapter mentioned Ray Peat; Ray immediately scared me away from iodine.

It's only after comparing by chance Ray's comments about thyroid disease and the Japanese epidemiological cancer data that the can of worms became fully obvious.

This iodine issue is hugely important to get to the bottom of. Iodine might just be another miracle-mineral like magnesium, with incredible disease-preventing potential.
 

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