Low Heart Rate?

charlie

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I cannot make recommendations on how much NDT to take. But waiting only one week to raise to the next dose is not enough time. It needs to be 2 weeks, minimum.

And of course, if you do not have your diet in check. Then yeh, that could be a problem. Ray Peat has said that people who do not respond to thyroid supplementation usually are not getting enough protein.
 

charlie

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Oh, and you need to track your temperature and pulse to gauge when it's time to raise or lower your supplement. If not, you are flying blind.
 
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sseverett

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I am getting 130 grams of protein a day and I do watch my temperature and heart rate very closely. As I wrote previously I stopped because there were no changes in my metabolic rate. I can go back to NDT, I have it here, and stay at one dose for a month if you think that is a better way to do it. What if I’m up to 5 tablets a day and I’m 5 months into this go to 6 tablets a day?
 

charlie

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Like I said. I cannot tell you how much to take. But Ray Peat has mentioned that there was the "12 grain lady". So basically she made it up to 12 pills. I have seen people settling in around 5 grains. It seems, that most settle in around 2-3 grains.

Are you sure your NDT is legit? What one are you using?
 
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sseverett

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Before I bought my NDT I knew Dr. Peat was not happy with Armour Thyroid so that was out. I’ve also be reading a lot over at Lita Lee’s web site and I saw she sold American Biologics Thyroid Glandular. The only problem is that you have to go through her system to buy it so I followed the advice of a contributor to this forum and bought if from Amazon. I could be mistaken but my understanding is that 1 grain equals 65mg; so 1 tablet is really 2 grains. Dr. Peat only mentions this lady because she was an extreme case and she was taking 12 grains. Before I would consider myself an extreme case I would need some kind of conformation. I do not want to put you guy in an uncomfortable position of asking you to suggesting dosages but I do need to know how to proceed forwards. Functional Medicine makes a lot of sense to me so what I want to do is have several indicators that I watch over and then base my thyroid dosage on those indicators. That way I will know where I want to be and make sure I’m going in the right direction.
I spent 1 hour working outside today in 40 degree weather. I was dressed warm. My temperature dropped to 95.5. An hour later in the warm I was back up to 98.1. Something doesn’t seem right about that. I do not feel cold nor do I have cold hands or feet but the thermometer and heart rate tells me I’m not running at 100%.
Thanks again for your help
 

charlie

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From what I gather, the stuff from Lita Lee is not good at all.
 
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sseverett

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I would not disagree with you. That could actually be the answer to my lack of results. I’m still learning!
 

Mittir

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It seems normal to have your body temperature changing with atmospheric temperature. Body tries to keep its core temp stable when its too cold. Best way to measure your core temp is rectally. If you have a cold drink and your age is below 40, you are supposed to wait at least 15 minutes before you take oral temp. I am wondering if staying outdoor in cold have the similar affect on oral temp measurement.

Here is an interesting article

Temperature lowering after iced water. Enhanced effects in the elderly.
Sugarek NJ.
Abstract

Oral temperature has long been used as a basis for clinical decisions. The ingestion of cold liquids such as iced water, which are frequently found at patients' bedsides or in clinic waiting areas, has been believed to potentially lower oral temperature readings. The degree and duration of this effect, however, has not been well established. This study examined the effect of iced water on oral temperature as measured with a standard electronic thermometer. Ninety-two afebrile adults were stratified into three age groups. Their temperatures were measured every two minutes for ten minutes to establish a baseline. Subjects then drank 9 oz of iced water over two minutes and their temperatures were again taken every two minutes for the next half hour. The overall mean initial change was -2.4F (P less than .001; range, +0.1 to -8.2 degrees). Although no differences existed at baseline, temperature decreases and recovery time were strongly related to age. Mean decreases were -3.1F for persons 60 years or older, -2.4F for those between 40 and 59 years, and -1.6F for those less than 40 years of age (P = .0001). Median times for return to baseline temperature were 26, 18, and 14 minutes, respectively. On the basis of these findings it is recommended that oral temperature not be measured immediately after iced water ingestion. It is further recommended that oral temperature readings be delayed at least 15 minutes in people under the age of 40 years, 20 minutes in those who are 40 to 59 years, and 30 minutes in persons aged 60 and older.

PMID:
3722670
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3722670
 
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sseverett

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Along with studying Dr. Peat I’ve also been trying to gain a fuller understanding of what he is saying by studying biology and organic chemistry. Bullharrier over at YouTube has some fantastic videos explaining what is actually happen at the cells which helps me understand when Dr. Pete says something.

Bullharrier has a video on “Transport Across the Cell Membrane” which explains the importants of temperature and the transport of particles across the cell membrane from the extracellular fluid into the intercellular fluid. As I understand this process better it is clear why heart rate is important; it is supplying fresh extracellular fluid to the cell.

16min to 18min is a segment of video which explains that measuring temperature is actually measuring molecular motion. Higher temperature equals higher molecular motion which causes higher probability of particles coming into contact with the cell.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjK7qzkJsWA&list=UU0JRvRB-VkJ3yeSEdXpe9ew

I see the first steps that need to be made is supplying my body with the right nutrition and returning my body to it optimal temperature and heart rate. That is what I’m trying to do with your guys help. Where I’m having trouble is that thyroid supplement is not increasing my metabolic rate. As Ray Peat has said if you have good thyroid all the stress systems go to sleep and not cause trouble.
Thanks
 
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j.

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sseverett, I think Ray Peat believes cell membranes don't exist. He uses Gilbert Ling's cell theory. However, this doesn't mean the people you're reading are wrong. They might be right in their conclusions while incorrect in some of the mechanisms.
 
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sseverett

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J. yes I have heard Dr. Peat speak about his belief concerning the cell but I do not hear a disagreement between Dr.P and Bullharrier. If you made your judgment upon Bullharrier’s title alone you will miss his definition of membrane. Bullharrier says the outer surface of a cell is a plasma membrane which controls the cells environment. He talks as if a cell has intelligence making decisions in the best interest of the cell. (a concept also preached by Dr.P) Bullharrier stresses the idea that the outer plasma layer or “Border” is not a wall (plant cells have wall not animal cells) which can grow or shrink and pass things through.

16 minites into “Introduction to the Cell and Plasma Membrane”

Bullharrier says the outer surface of the cell is made of a phospholipid bilayer which separates the intracellular fluid from the extracellular fluid. But the cell’s membrane only stops polar molecules. (bringing them in through receptors or gates) Non-polar molecules (fats = hormones) pass right through as if no membrane existed. (see 24:30 into “Introduction to Cell and Plasma Membrane”)

I do not see a disagreement between these 2 men but I am not a scientist or biologist; I am a mechanic.

Thanks
 
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sseverett

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I was listening to “Eluv Interview – Fats” and Ray Peat said toward the end of the interview that someone who has eaten PUFAs most of their life once stopping it could take a years or two, depending on how fat they are, to regain thyroid effect. Is it possible that no matter what I do until I exchange the polyunsaturated fat in my body for saturated fat I will not have a normal metabolic rate? Does this mean that PUFA stops the thyroid from producing T3 and T4 or does it mean that PUFA inhibits the mitochondria from using T3? Dr. P also says in the interview that when you eat coconut oil the body will use it first preferring it over PUFA. I eat a couple of tablespoons of coconut oil every day. I know sugar only last about 2 hours in my blood how long does fat stay in our blood? If I wanted to counteract the negative effects of PUFA already in my system how often should I eat coconut oil?
Thanks
 

charlie

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Well, I tried strict diet for 6 months and I did have improvements. But when I started taking thyroid supplement, holy cow! Huge difference. But yeh, it's understood around here that it will take some years to get back to where you should be due to having to change your unsaturated fats over to saturated. But, taking thyroid supplement, aspirin, maybe some pregnenolone, niacinamide, throw in a little vitamin E, can help things start back up sooner then if you went at it with diet alone. :mytwocents
 
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j.

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PUFAs interfere with the secretion of the thyroid hormone, its transportation, and use.
 

jnhermann

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Have you considered taking Cynoplus (T4/T3 combo)? Have you had your thyroid antibodies checked? If you are hypo thyroid, there's a good chance you have thyroid antibodies. Ray Peat has suggested that natural thyroid may not be effective for people with thyroid antibodies, as the antibodies will attack the natural thyroid as it's broken down in the liver. Antobdies aren't triggered by synthetic T4/T3. RP recommends Cynoplus and maybe some Cynomel or Cytomel for some extra T3. He doesn't recommend T3 only. Maybe you will have better results on Cynoplus and Cynomel instead of glandular.
 
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sseverett

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Charlie, that’s what I’m trying to accomplish, “Holy Cow; Huge Difference!” I guess the part I’m missing is the time. Thanks J for the clarification. I now understand as long as I have PUFAs in my system I’m going to be disappointed. Dr. P talks like eating a tablespoon of coconut oil turns your body into a little space heater; I feel nothing. :(
This PUFA thing is not as simple as one thinks when beginning. I’ve been fine tuning my diet since Nov. but it wasn’t until about 3 weeks ago I finally eliminated dried bean from my diet. I think I’m doing well but you never know for sure; it seems like there is always something else you’ve missed.
I will add aspirin and Niacinamide to my diet everything else I’m already taking. In a couple of months I will add NDT back in and slowly increase the rate. I know you guy are not fond of American Biologics what brand do like?
I also think my liver is not working correctly I have a skin rash on my elbow that is not going away and outbreaks of eczema on my hand from time to time. I also have high resting blood sugar levels and can’t sleep through the night. I have continued with Mittir’s suggestion of drinking milk/sugar/salt before bed but it hasn’t helped me yet. I’ll keep trying.
Thanks
 
J

j.

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sseverett said:
Charlie, that’s what I’m trying to accomplish, “Holy Cow; Huge Difference!” I guess the part I’m missing is the time. Thanks J for the clarification.

Don't try to get rid of PUFA fast, for example, by losing weight quickly. It'll make things worse. PUFAs do their damage then they're released from the fat stores to the bloodstream. When they're just staying there in the fat tissue I don't think they do much. Taking aspirin and coconut oil regularly I think slows down the PUFA release and mitigates the damage.
 

AmanitaVirosa

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sseverett said:
5:30am ½ cup of oat meal with 1 tablespoon Great Lakes Gelatin and 2 tablespoons of coconut oil, 1 Teaspoon of sugar, a large amount of salt measure in the palm of my hand.
9:00am Carrot salad, salt, Bragg’s apple cider vinegar (I wash off as much beta carotene as I can)
12:00pm Potatoes, carrots, celery, and hamburger cooked into a soup (well cooked in a pressure cooker) with 2 tablespoons of Great Lakes Gelatin and 2 tablespoons of coconut oil; sprinkled heavily with salt.
2:30pm Orange
5:00pm One half small watermelon and meat (liver twice a week, sometime beef, fish, pork. I’m moving further away from fish and pork)
Grapes or cheese for snacks during the evenings.
Throughout the day 1 pot of coffee and 2 quarts of milk.
I use a mixture of Vitamin D (3000iu), Vitamin E (NOW liquid made from veg. oil 91iu) in coconut oil and put on my face after shaving.
Before bed I take 100mg of pregnenolone in 1 teaspoon of coconut oil.
I know there is a little PUFA’s in some of this stuff but very little.
My temperature is more controlled by my enviorment than by me. When I’m working outside in the cold I’ll drop down into the 95’s and working in the warm I can rise to the low 99’s. Average temperature and heart rate for the last 4 months (taken 4 times a day) 97.8 temp. heart rate 62.
Daily average temp before any thyroid supplement: 97.76
Daily average temp after thyroid supplement: 97.84

Hi sseverett, it's best to take pregnenolone in the morning on an empty stomach, not before going to bed. It will make sleeping more difficult.
Thanks
 

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