Low Heart Rate?

sseverett

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I’ve been working for 3 months trying to raise my BMR and have become frustrated. 6 months ago I started to change to a Peat diet and 3 months ago I became strict in my diet. I’ve lost 40 lbs. and I feel great, but my temperature remains 1 degree low and my heart rate remains stubbornly around 60bpm. I can’t sleep for more that 2-3 hours at a time (1 teaspoon of sugar will put me back to sleep) and my resting blood sugar remain at 100. I spent 7 weeks adding glandular thyroid to my diet (increasing 1 tablet each week) reaching 5 tablets per day without effect. I stopped the glandular thyroid and began Cynomel 3 days ago. I’m now taking 25mcg a day (1/2 tablet twice daily) with no change in my BMR.
Coconut oil, salt, or sugar has no effect on my numbers nor eating them before bed time keep me asleep but I keep sugar water beside my bed for my 2am wake up. I have my Peat red lights above my computer work space and get a hour or so of them daily and try to bag breath once a day.
I’ve been reading this forum for several months and it has really educated me on my journey but now I’m stuck. Cynomel has failed me and I don’t know which way to go now.
Thanks
Steve
 

cliff

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What do you eat in a typical day and how frequently?
 

sseverett

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5:30am ½ cup of oat meal with 1 tablespoon Great Lakes Gelatin and 2 tablespoons of coconut oil, 1 Teaspoon of sugar, a large amount of salt measure in the palm of my hand.
9:00am Carrot salad, salt, Bragg’s apple cider vinegar (I wash off as much beta carotene as I can)
12:00pm Potatoes, carrots, celery, and hamburger cooked into a soup (well cooked in a pressure cooker) with 2 tablespoons of Great Lakes Gelatin and 2 tablespoons of coconut oil; sprinkled heavily with salt.
2:30pm Orange
5:00pm One half small watermelon and meat (liver twice a week, sometime beef, fish, pork. I’m moving further away from fish and pork)
Grapes or cheese for snacks during the evenings.
Throughout the day 1 pot of coffee and 2 quarts of milk.
I use a mixture of Vitamin D (3000iu), Vitamin E (NOW liquid made from veg. oil 91iu) in coconut oil and put on my face after shaving.
Before bed I take 100mg of pregnenolone in 1 teaspoon of coconut oil.
I know there is a little PUFA’s in some of this stuff but very little.
My temperature is more controlled by my enviorment than by me. When I’m working outside in the cold I’ll drop down into the 95’s and working in the warm I can rise to the low 99’s. Average temperature and heart rate for the last 4 months (taken 4 times a day) 97.8 temp. heart rate 62.
Daily average temp before any thyroid supplement: 97.76
Daily average temp after thyroid supplement: 97.84


Thanks
 

Mittir

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It seems like your diet is low in fructose and that can be a problem in replenishing your liver glycogen storage. You need a good glycogen storage to be able to sleep through the night for 7-8 hours. RP suggested in an radio interview that one third or one fourth of carbohydrate should be fructose. There is a good blogpost suggesting the same number.
http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2012/01/is ... eat-sugar/
This article shows galactose in milk is also good at filling liver glycogen. I tried RP suggestion of drinking a cup of milk with few tablespoon of sugar and some salt and it has been a great sleeping aid. I am guessing galactose in milk and fuctose in sugar together makes it a better combo Gelatin also gives restful sleep. It will be helpful if you can find out the exact amount of carb, protein and fat you are eating.
 

key

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Eating less starch and more fruit/sugar will definitely help in my experience. Eating something each hour or 2 that contains sugar, protein, salt and fat can also help.

I don't know how active you are but that looks pretty low cal.
 

sseverett

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I was surprised you guys found my food intake low in calories and sugar. I eat and am full and do not experiences any of the cravings of a reduced calorie diet. It seems like I eat a lot. I just assumed that ½ gal. of milk, a big bowl of grapes, an orange, half a watermelon, and 2 teaspoons of sugar was enough fruit/sugar in a day. I’ll try a glass of milk with 2 tablespoons of sugar and as much salt as I can take tonight.
 

Ingenol

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What other liquids are you drinking? With half a gallon of milk and what sounds like soup daily you could easily be drinking a lot if there are other liquids in the mix. You might try experimenting with less liquid.
 

sseverett

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I went to sleep at 10 and woke up at 12:45, drank my sugar water, and slept to 5 this morning. That is very unusual for me to only wake once during the night. I will continue to drink the milk/sugar/salt before bed. I drink about 8 oz of water at work and then about 20 oz of carbonated water (I have a soda stream) at home. Between the coffee and milk I don’t need much else.

No one has said anything about the lack of effect I’m having using glandular thyroid or Cynomel. Do you think my thyroid is fine and I only have a nutrition deficiency? (TSH 2.139 but you see above my BMR)
 

cliff

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If your getting at least 80g protein and 200g carbs and thyroid still doesn't work maybe try other interventions like pregenelone, niacianmide etc.

How do you know the thyroid is not having an effect?
 

sseverett

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I’m judging my low thyroid based strictly upon BMR. (avg. bpm-60 temp-97.8) As you can see above taking thyroid has had no effect (before thyroid avg. temp 97.76, after thyroid avg. temp 97.84) I have been taking 100mg (see above) for about 10 days but I have not tried niacianmide. Do you think I can safely increase my daily dosage of Cynomel from 25mcg to 50mcg a day? I’ve only been take Cynomel for 4 days now so I haven’t really given it a good test yet. My thinking is that if Cynomel only last for 12 hours in my system and I don’t see any effects in 12 hours I’m not going to see any.
 

charlie

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Here is a write up on how to supplement with dessicated thyroid. I think it would be the same with the thyroid you are taking.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=442
 

Mittir

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sseverett said:
I’m judging my low thyroid based strictly upon BMR. (avg. bpm-60 temp-97.8) As you can see above taking thyroid has had no effect (before thyroid avg. temp 97.76, after thyroid avg. temp 97.84) I have been taking 100mg (see above) for about 10 days but I have not tried niacianmide. Do you think I can safely increase my daily dosage of Cynomel from 25mcg to 50mcg a day? I’ve only been take Cynomel for 4 days now so I haven’t really given it a good test yet. My thinking is that if Cynomel only last for 12 hours in my system and I don’t see any effects in 12 hours I’m not going to see any.

Did you measure your TSH, T4 and T3 before you started thyroid supplement? It is bit risky to change from one type of thyroid supplement to other. You need to calculate the conversion. Your current dose of 25 mcg seems quite high assuming your thyroid numbers were not too off. Here is a quote from RP. He suggests nibbling on T3 all through out the day. You also need to tapered off the dose if you decide to stop taking T3. He also suggests to measure temperature 1-2 hours after breakfast.
This is a very good interview on thyroid

http://www.thyroid-info.com/articles/ray-peat.htm


"Mary Shomon: You have written that for some people, there is a problem converting T4 to T3, but that diet can help. You recommend a piece of fruit or juice or milk between meals, plus adequate protein, can help the liver produce the hormone. Can you explain a bit more about this idea and how it works?

Dr. Ray Peat: The amount of glucose in liver cells regulates the enzyme that converts T4 to T3. This means that hypoglycemia or diabetes (in which glucose doesn't enter cells efficiently) will cause hypothyroidism, when T4 can't be converted into T3. When a person is fasting, at first the liver's glycogen stores will provide glucose to maintain T3 production. When the glycogen is depleted, the body resorts to the dissolution of tissue to provide energy. The mobilized fatty acids interfere with the use of glucose, and certain amino acids suppress the thyroid gland. Eating carbohydrate (especially fruits) can allow the liver to resume its production of T3.

Mary Shomon: You have recommended if supplemental T3 is used, a thyroid patients "nibble on a 10-15 mg Cytomel tablet throughout the day." Can you explain why? Would compounded time-released T3 as available in some compounding pharmacies do the same?

Dr. Ray Peat: Most hypothyroid people can successfully use a supplement that contains four parts of thyroxine for each part of T3, but some people need a larger proportion of T3 for best functioning. The body normally produces several micrograms of T3 every hour, but if a large amount of supplementary thyroid is taken in a short time, the liver quickly inactivates some of the excess T3. Taking a few micrograms per hour provides what the body can use, and doesn't suppress either the liver's or the thyroid's production of the hormone.

I have only rarely talked to anyone who had good results with the so-called time-release T3, and I have seen analyses of some samples in which there was little or no T3 present. It is hard to compound T3 properly, and the conditions of each person's digestive system can determine whether the T3 is released all at once, or not at all. I don't think there is a valid scientific basis for calling anything "time-release T3."

I have been told that the company which now owns the Armour name and manufactures "Armour thyroid USP" has added a polymer to the formula, and I think this would account for the stories I have heard about its apparent inactivity. Some people have found that the tablets passed through their intestine undigested, so I think it's advisable to crush or powder the tablets. "
 

sseverett

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Charlie I used that article in my research before supplementing myself with thyroid. After finally reaching 5 tablets a day, with no signs, I gave up on Thyroid Glandular. I did not get a T4 and T3 test; only a TSH. My doctor is not interested in my thyroid only my blood sugar levels.
I’ve increased my T3 intake to 25mcg twice a day and here are today’s numbers:
5:58 AM 97.5 56 25mg of Cynomel
6:22 AM 66
8:05 AM 98.6 64
8:46 AM 97.6 55
10:37 AM 98.9 60
11:54 AM 99.5 68
1:19 PM 97.9 64
1:54 PM 25mg of Cynomel
2:32 PM 98.2 66
4:29 PM 98.6 58

My temperature is good (but that can quickly drop). My average heart rate before any thyroid was 67. After 7 weeks of taking Thyroid Glandular (increasing 1 tablet per week) my average heart rate was 60. Average heart rate on 50mcg of T3 is 62.
Cliff’s commit I found very interesting because I didn’t know the answer so I figured it up today.
My protein – 130g
My Carbs -144g
I stopped losing weight on Feb 9th and since then have been staying between 207 and 210. (weighted weekly) I need to lose another 30 pounds and I do think I’m on the right path. I’ve been stuck here for a month and a half and I don’t think it is necessary to restrict my food only to select the right food and raise my metabolic rate.
I shared the same concerned as Mittir with taking and stopping thyroid but after my experiences I’m thinking it has no effect on me. I’m even disappointed in the pregnenolone. I’ve seen absolutely no change in a week of taking it. I still have blood/sugar regulating problems and sleeping through the night but I’m in good health and feel good.
Thanks
 

narouz

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Mittir said:
I was just listening to RP interviews with Josh Rubin .RP was talking about his experience with high dose T3 at 59 Minute.
I think it will be helpful for you to listen to his interview.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... io-q-and-a

I couldn't find that at the 59 minute point, Mittir.
Only thing I could find along T3 lines was, at the 45:10 point,
he talked a bit about how he didn't like the time-release T3's.
Is that what you were referring to?

I'm interested because I'm doing straight T3 now.
 

Mittir

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narouz said:
Mittir said:
I was just listening to RP interviews with Josh Rubin .RP was talking about his experience with high dose T3 at 59 Minute.
I think it will be helpful for you to listen to his interview.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... io-q-and-a

I couldn't find that at the 59 minute point, Mittir.
Only thing I could find along T3 lines was, at the 45:10 point,
he talked a bit about how he didn't like the time-release T3's.
Is that what you were referring to?

I'm interested because I'm doing straight T3 now.

You are right . That's a wrong link. He has a confusing file name and header.

Here is the right one. at 58 minute

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... -endotoxin
 

narouz

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Mittir said:
narouz said:
Mittir said:
I was just listening to RP interviews with Josh Rubin .RP was talking about his experience with high dose T3 at 59 Minute.
I think it will be helpful for you to listen to his interview.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... io-q-and-a

I couldn't find that at the 59 minute point, Mittir.
Only thing I could find along T3 lines was, at the 45:10 point,
he talked a bit about how he didn't like the time-release T3's.
Is that what you were referring to?

I'm interested because I'm doing straight T3 now.

You are right . That's a wrong link. He has a confusing file name and header.

Here is the right one. at 58 minute

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... -endotoxin

Thanks, Mittir-
Yeah...that was interesting.
Peat described his T3 only experiment on himself
a bit differently than I had heard it reported before.

Peat said that he experimented for a few weeks taking 25mcg of T3 only at a time.
(He wasn't clear about whether he took that dose one or more times per day.)

He said that after a while, I think he said after a few weeks,
when he would take the 25mcg dose,
and then would wait for several hours (did he say 8 hrs, I think?),
his heart would start skipping beats.
He said that if he then took some more T3 that skipping would go away
and his normal heartbeat would return.
 

sseverett

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Thanks for the link Mittir and the clarification narouz. You guys have sent me back to rethinking this. I will change tomorrow to cutting the T3 into fourths and taking ¼ pill every hour up to 2 pills total or until my heart reaches 85 bpm. Are you guys suggesting I add thyroid glandular back in?
The task before me is very important. I began studying Dr. Peat after being introduced to him by Josh Rubin. After finding all of Dr. Peat’s interviews (one of you guys posted a master list) I downloaded every one and put them on my iPhone. I listen to them over and over again. That is all I’ve listen to for the past 6 months. I’ve bought all of his books and his newsletter. The guy makes so much sense it has to be true. Up to this point it has all be theoretical. He has such confidence and it seems like he can cure anything with thyroid and ice cream. This is my first step into proving all this data I’ve been feeding on is actually true and does work. Peats way of feeding the body is opposite to everything my friends are doing following the doctors’ orders. I started with something I thought would be easy; raise my metabolic rate to normal. What I’m finding out is the reality of changing oneself is must more complicated than just taking a pill. Does Ray Peat philosophy really work? That is what I’m trying to prove to myself but I need some help. A bowl of ice cream is just not going to work for me.
Thanks
 

charlie

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One thing to keep in mind, even Josh Rubin admits this. Heart rate is one of the last things to fall in line. Temperature seems to recover before heart rate.

For me, I am going with NDT. It has the full range of "T's". It's been proven by Broda Barnes. It just freaking works. Be sure you start low and raise slow. Metabolism is not something you can beat with a sledgehammer and get it going. You really have to finesse it up, at a slow rate, as many things are changing in your body. Calm, healthy energy is kicking in, stress hormones(the energy hypos are running off of) like adrenaline, and cortisol need time to down regulate. It takes time, and you can't get into a race with it.

And don't forget light, sunlight and artificial red light. This is highly important.

Does the Ray Peat philosophy work? Oh yeh, I have zero doubt in my mind. Will you run into problems getting things going? I think so. We all have. You just have to work through them. It's a work worth doing.
 

sseverett

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Charlie
I could go back on NDT but what do I use as my indicator? I did start low (½ pill per day) and I did not rush it (1 week on each dosage) and stayed on it for 7 weeks. If I am to finesse this, and keep it slow, waiting for my body to catch up what do I use as feedback to tell me how much and when to change? A thermometer and stop watch does not work in my case so what do I measure? Are you suggesting a set amount (maybe 1 tablet) and take it until I get better and not measure anything?
As I type this I’m sitting under 1000 watts of light (500w heat lamp, 500 Halogen) drinking carbonated water. Whenever I’m on the computer the lights are on (usually 1 to 1 ½ per day 8 hours weekend). I am in this for the long haul and I am ready to change anything in my life that is keeping me from my goal.
Could it be that my thyroid is fine and it is my sugar intake? About 27 minutes into,
“Politics & Science: Autoimmune and Movement Disorders”
http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/09/12/master-list-ray-peat-phd-interviews/
Dr. Peat talks about when the liver is not working correctly and you don’t have enough sugar in your system your body begins stress responses. What if every hour I take a spoon full of sugar instead of a quarter T3 pill? What do you think forget the sugar and T3 and take NDT or increase my sugar and stop the T3?
Thanks
 
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