Low Fat versus Low Carb for Weight Loss ?

Frankdee20

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Let’s call a spade a spade, everyone is different.... I’m 6’3”, and 235 pounds, with high cholesterol and somewhat of a belly.... I don’t think low carb is the answer for me, unless it’s also low fat... Can one do low fat and decent lean white meats but also needing to rely on Carbohydrates for satiety ? I suppose with either diet, I can avoid carbs and rely on lean meat and vegetables.... but am I somewhat right in believing that people can lose weight and still eat carbohydrates ? Thank You Guys and love this group with all my heart !
 

MidBicep

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Dec 12, 2020
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Let’s call a spade a spade, everyone is different.... I’m 6’3”, and 235 pounds, with high cholesterol and somewhat of a belly.... I don’t think low carb is the answer for me, unless it’s also low fat... Can one do low fat and decent lean white meats but also needing to rely on Carbohydrates for satiety ? I suppose with either diet, I can avoid carbs and rely on lean meat and vegetables.... but am I somewhat right in believing that people can lose weight and still eat carbohydrates ? Thank You Guys and love this group with all my heart !
For perspective I am a 23 year old male, 178cm and around 86-90kg, decently strong and muscular. Ever since the quarantine started here in early November I didn't lift much and was sedentary so I packed on a bit of weight and the upper abs that have always been there faded.
The last couple weeks I've been experimenting with low starch, high sugar and low fat milk since I have some kind of bacterial overgrowth/infection leading to many gut issues. Last week I experimented with a milk, sugar, salt and coffee based diet that I also logged in a thread here.
An interesting thing I didn't mention in my thread is that I started getting leaner even though I've been eating the same or even more than usual (probably 3000kcal after logging stuff on chronometer) always eating according to appetite with never having incredible body changes. I can now see my upper abs and a bit of serratus is coming in along with the Adonis belt (aka **** lines). All this time I have not restricted calories, always eating (or drinking I guess) to satiety and at the highest in a day fat has been around 25% from total calories when I had to eat cheese and eggs because I wasn't eating enough sugar.
Now I never was one to believe that anything can majorly impact CICO, but the metabolism is getting faster, I'm warmer and sweating more so even a slight deficit is enough to get rid of the weight I gained (mind you I'm nowhere near shredded)
 

Cloudhands

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Cal in/cal out + resistance training + decent protein +lots of walking. Ive found for me that too high of protein increases belly fat specifically vs same amount of kcal with less % protein. Also psyllium husk + brewers yeast + bcaa + collagen in fruit smoothies works really nice for me
 

dukesbobby777

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A diet of lean meats and vegetables sounds pretty miserable to me. You’d also have to definitely go organic because it would take a LOT of vegetables to make up any sort of calorie requirements (and you’re a big chap, so not getting them will be stressful), and being non organic would just be big intake of pesticides/chemicals. If you then added fruits to that diet, it might become more enjoyable. But getting the gut to adapt to that vast amount of roughage might be a challenge.

Saying that, just eating a whole foods diet which doesn’t include starch might be an option. Someone on here described it as ‘fruitarian meets carnivore’. If you can adapt to such a thing, blood sugar can become more stable in between meals and calorie intake drops by eliminating those starchy meals (which are usually doused in condiments, fats and flavour enhancers). One could then just add a calcium supplement on top to make it more Peatish. Adopting that sort of diet wouldn’t require restricting fats or carbs. They are both macronutrients that humans seem to crave. Personally I don’t feel good at all on low fat or low carb diets.
 
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Nomane Euger

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Let’s call a spade a spade, everyone is different.... I’m 6’3”, and 235 pounds, with high cholesterol and somewhat of a belly.... I don’t think low carb is the answer for me, unless it’s also low fat... Can one do low fat and decent lean white meats but also needing to rely on Carbohydrates for satiety ? I suppose with either diet, I can avoid carbs and rely on lean meat and vegetables.... but am I somewhat right in believing that people can lose weight and still eat carbohydrates ? Thank You Guys and love this group with all my heart !
do you have the time to walk?is there sun exposure where you live at this time of the year?
 

Frankdee20

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do you have the time to walk?is there sun exposure where you live at this time of the year?
Sun exposure ? Lol ... I’m in the ***t hole and the ***t show of NYC when the **** does the sun ever come out
 

Nomane Euger

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Sun exposure ? Lol ... I’m in the ***t hole and the ***t show of NYC when the **** does the sun ever come out
The Times where I have been the most shredded and Iam the most shredded person I know even when iam not shredded,is in summer,one summer eating mostly fruits,and one summer eating meat and fat,the common factors for both was no stress and sun exposure all along,caloric deficit and walking,both screen where this summer,love handle and belly fat is was melted the most in those conditions,the 2 screen shots are from this summer here I started to eat only organ meats and fat for a while
 

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milkboi

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I‘m also 6 3 and have success with a highish protein/high carb/low fat diet for cutting.

Breakfast
Skim milk 1l with two tablespoons honey
Lunch
200g (uncooked) rice with chicken breast or white fish, some green vegetables and soy sauce and sriracha for taste
Afternoon snack
500g Skyr with 100g mixed berries and 50g dates
Dinner
Potato mash (400g of potatoes and sweet potatoes, some skim milk) and chicken breast/tuna/lean beef steak/beef liver once per week

Comes out to about 2500 cal per day and I‘m slowly but surely losing weight. I did a more aggressive cut for 2-3 months last year eating 2kcal, lost about 12 kg (not counting water loss) back then.
 

theantagonist

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Jan 11, 2021
Messages
65
Weight gain, especially fat gain, is due to high stress hormones, because that results in the liberation of free fatty acids, which cause insulin resistance both to the Rendall cycle, because they prevent the oxidation of glucose and also fatty acids have been found to be direct insulin receptor antagonist so this means that free fatty acids will make you insulin resistant and also prevent your cells from oxidizing sugar the fatty acids will also increase serotonin, especially PUFA, and cortisol and this will promote the stress state even more The fatty acids increase serotonin by activating the enzyme tph tryptophan hydroxylase, which inhibits the synthesis of niacin and moves metabolism away from niacin and towards some exitotoxic byproducts of tryptophan so if you combine the stress metabolism with a high-fat diet which is the typical standard American diet this means high insulin. So fat storage will be high, with hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia

It has been shown that inhibiting lipolysis, which lowers the amount of free fatty acids in the blood, effectively allows the cells to resume the oxidation of glucose Unless you have another problem like a deficiency in one of the enzymes of the krebs cycle or there's a deficiency in the electron transport chain Most people lowering the free fatty acids will reverse this insulin resistance, the inability to oxidize glucose. There are several drugs on the market that actually I try to do that, but niacinamide has been known to work very well and so does aspirin



let me touch a little bit upon that so a lot of people will say just like you mentioned, don't you have to liberate the fat from your storage in order to lose it?


and just like I mentioned there's always some lipolysis going on, whether you like it or not, you cannot inhibit it completely


and at rest your muscles burn mostly fat. so I would say that a proper regimen of weight lifting, maintaining an anabolic environment, a high sugar diet and low stress will actually burn the fat much more safely, than the strenuous exercise


Some fat is also excreted by the liver through glucuronidation and that process is actually inhibited while you're under stress. So your liver understands that excess fat is not good and it does its best to try to excrete it. But by stressing it (the liver) out with excessive, extraneous exercise. The liver is busy processing all the toxins that are released from your colon and intestines as a result of the bacteria getting irritated and producing endotoxin. And so the process of glucoronidation almost completely stops while you're under stress.


At rest the body consumes mostly fat for the muscles and especially the hart and mostly glucose for vital organs like the brain and the gonads.


So fatty acids are transported in the blood mostly to hepatocytes which are liver cells adipocytes, which are your fat cells, or to muscle fibers Niacinamide helps the hepatocytes glucoronidate and excrete the fat, and it does this by inhibiting the synthesis of triglycerides by the liver.


so fatty acids reaching the liver while taking niacinamide will tend to get excreted instead of converting into triglycerides and transported to the tissues for oxidation and storage.


Muscles oxidize fat as their main fuel at rest, and with proper insulin sensitivity, the fat will not be stored into the adipocytes, if your liver is doing well and it's not stressed


So you have three targets of the fatty acids, your liver, your fat tissue and your muscles. If you're not under stress, your liver and your muscles will take care of the fat that you want to lose. So in order to keep the fatty acids only going to the hepatocytes and muscles, insulin should not be high, which means no stress, which means no high cortisol or adrenaline, no excessive lipolysis and no insulin resistance. In other words, you want insulin to be low and minimal lipolysis


These free fatty acids in the blood destroy your insulin sensitivity directly, Through the randle cycle and by being an insulin receptor antagonist


so keeping the stress hormones at bay is paramount for both the prevention of storage of dietary fat, and also allowing the fat to be properly oxidized and excreted without additional stress


As I mentioned the stress inhibits the glucuronidation process, and also makes the cells produce lactic acid instead of oxidizing the fat properly through beta oxidation

----------------------------------------------------------
Excerpts of Georgi on weight loss. Maybe that might help you decide what to do
 

milkboi

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Location
Germany
Weight gain, especially fat gain, is due to high stress hormones, because that results in the liberation of free fatty acids, which cause insulin resistance both to the Rendall cycle, because they prevent the oxidation of glucose and also fatty acids have been found to be direct insulin receptor antagonist so this means that free fatty acids will make you insulin resistant and also prevent your cells from oxidizing sugar the fatty acids will also increase serotonin, especially PUFA, and cortisol and this will promote the stress state even more The fatty acids increase serotonin by activating the enzyme tph tryptophan hydroxylase, which inhibits the synthesis of niacin and moves metabolism away from niacin and towards some exitotoxic byproducts of tryptophan so if you combine the stress metabolism with a high-fat diet which is the typical standard American diet this means high insulin. So fat storage will be high, with hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia

It has been shown that inhibiting lipolysis, which lowers the amount of free fatty acids in the blood, effectively allows the cells to resume the oxidation of glucose Unless you have another problem like a deficiency in one of the enzymes of the krebs cycle or there's a deficiency in the electron transport chain Most people lowering the free fatty acids will reverse this insulin resistance, the inability to oxidize glucose. There are several drugs on the market that actually I try to do that, but niacinamide has been known to work very well and so does aspirin



let me touch a little bit upon that so a lot of people will say just like you mentioned, don't you have to liberate the fat from your storage in order to lose it?


and just like I mentioned there's always some lipolysis going on, whether you like it or not, you cannot inhibit it completely


and at rest your muscles burn mostly fat. so I would say that a proper regimen of weight lifting, maintaining an anabolic environment, a high sugar diet and low stress will actually burn the fat much more safely, than the strenuous exercise


Some fat is also excreted by the liver through glucuronidation and that process is actually inhibited while you're under stress. So your liver understands that excess fat is not good and it does its best to try to excrete it. But by stressing it (the liver) out with excessive, extraneous exercise. The liver is busy processing all the toxins that are released from your colon and intestines as a result of the bacteria getting irritated and producing endotoxin. And so the process of glucoronidation almost completely stops while you're under stress.


At rest the body consumes mostly fat for the muscles and especially the hart and mostly glucose for vital organs like the brain and the gonads.


So fatty acids are transported in the blood mostly to hepatocytes which are liver cells adipocytes, which are your fat cells, or to muscle fibers Niacinamide helps the hepatocytes glucoronidate and excrete the fat, and it does this by inhibiting the synthesis of triglycerides by the liver.


so fatty acids reaching the liver while taking niacinamide will tend to get excreted instead of converting into triglycerides and transported to the tissues for oxidation and storage.


Muscles oxidize fat as their main fuel at rest, and with proper insulin sensitivity, the fat will not be stored into the adipocytes, if your liver is doing well and it's not stressed


So you have three targets of the fatty acids, your liver, your fat tissue and your muscles. If you're not under stress, your liver and your muscles will take care of the fat that you want to lose. So in order to keep the fatty acids only going to the hepatocytes and muscles, insulin should not be high, which means no stress, which means no high cortisol or adrenaline, no excessive lipolysis and no insulin resistance. In other words, you want insulin to be low and minimal lipolysis


These free fatty acids in the blood destroy your insulin sensitivity directly, Through the randle cycle and by being an insulin receptor antagonist


so keeping the stress hormones at bay is paramount for both the prevention of storage of dietary fat, and also allowing the fat to be properly oxidized and excreted without additional stress


As I mentioned the stress inhibits the glucuronidation process, and also makes the cells produce lactic acid instead of oxidizing the fat properly through beta oxidation

----------------------------------------------------------
Excerpts of Georgi on weight loss. Maybe that might help you decide what to do


Please give me an example of a person that actually lost weight due to this framework if you happen to know one. I could give you a million examples of super stressed people that lost weight following CICO.
 

Herbie

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If your not doing some low calorie debacle then they both don't really work
 

theantagonist

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Please give me an example of a person that actually lost weight due to this framework if you happen to know one. I could give you a million examples of super stressed people that lost weight following CICO.
i'm not implying CICO doesn't work to lose weight, even tough it might compromise metabolism.
The biggest loser is a great example of CICO and strenuous exercise, where free fatty acids are liberated into the bloodstream from adipose tissues. Not sure what the diet was, but pretty sure they were implementing low-carb or low sugar.
Anyway they all regained the weight back and more. So don't think quick weigh loss in short term is preferable, to have it all race back.

You are right, there are not many examples in the framework proposed above. But that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work in healthy people
 

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milkboi

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i'm not implying CICO doesn't work to lose weight, even tough it might compromise metabolism.
The biggest loser is a great example of CICO and strenuous exercise, where free fatty acids are liberated into the bloodstream from adipose tissues. Not sure what the diet was, but pretty sure they were implementing low-carb or low sugar.
Anyway they all regained the weight back and more. So don't think quick weigh loss in short term is preferable, to have it all race back.

You are right, there are not many examples in the framework proposed above. But that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work in healthy people
Ok yes, I agree with you, you definitely need to make sure you end up with a functioning metabolism after weight loss. Tho I don't think it's impossible to end up with that after implanting CICO. But yeah, I see many fitness influencers falling back on super high protein and otherwise low carbs and fats to keep a lean physique, that's definitely not desirable.
 

theantagonist

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Ok yes, I agree with you, you definitely need to make sure you end up with a functioning metabolism after weight loss. Tho I don't think it's impossible to end up with that after implanting CICO. But yeah, I see many fitness influencers falling back on super high protein and otherwise low carbs and fats to keep a lean physique, that's definitely not desirable.
I certainly understand where you're coming from. The practical application and results of georgi's proposed framework, are more elusive than the theoretical understanding.
But many people, like myself, have bad (certainly not optimal) metabolism and glucose oxidation. I don't think the body switches/ heals in a day or two, just because we decided to be sugar-based. All the processes in the body are still geared towards lipolysis, beta oxidation, slight or high insulin resistance, (slightly) elevated insulin levels, elevated stress hormones.

If someone feels the 'ray peat changes' they have made to their diet, isn't working for weight loss or are gaining weight, it might be a good idea to check blood markers (free fatty acids, glucose tolerance test, insulin, triglycerides, temps & pulse, NADH/NAD, CO2/lactate, estrogen, prolactin, androgens) to determine that their glucose metabolism is working properly. I don't think weight loss is possible if you pump yourself full of sugar, while the body can't oxidize it properly.
Just my two cents, that's what i'll be doing, because i've increased in weight recently. But i'm feeling great.

On the other hand, if we prevent excess lipolysis. How much grams of fat can we expect that the liver and muscles will burn per day? I couldn't even guess how much that would be in pounds per week. But i do not think the body will be happy to quickly give up it's reserves, so i guess a healthy natural progress, will be a slow one.
 

Frankdee20

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I‘m also 6 3 and have success with a highish protein/high carb/low fat diet for cutting.

Breakfast
Skim milk 1l with two tablespoons honey
Lunch
200g (uncooked) rice with chicken breast or white fish, some green vegetables and soy sauce and sriracha for taste
Afternoon snack
500g Skyr with 100g mixed berries and 50g dates
Dinner
Potato mash (400g of potatoes and sweet potatoes, some skim milk) and chicken breast/tuna/lean beef steak/beef liver once per week

Comes out to about 2500 cal per day and I‘m slowly but surely losing weight. I did a more aggressive cut for 2-3 months last year eating 2kcal, lost about 12 kg (not counting water loss) back then.
Nice ! Yeah I love my white fish, Cod, Flounder, and will eat Tuna and Salmon often (lowers triglycerides)....
 

Frankdee20

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Weight gain, especially fat gain, is due to high stress hormones, because that results in the liberation of free fatty acids, which cause insulin resistance both to the Rendall cycle, because they prevent the oxidation of glucose and also fatty acids have been found to be direct insulin receptor antagonist so this means that free fatty acids will make you insulin resistant and also prevent your cells from oxidizing sugar the fatty acids will also increase serotonin, especially PUFA, and cortisol and this will promote the stress state even more The fatty acids increase serotonin by activating the enzyme tph tryptophan hydroxylase, which inhibits the synthesis of niacin and moves metabolism away from niacin and towards some exitotoxic byproducts of tryptophan so if you combine the stress metabolism with a high-fat diet which is the typical standard American diet this means high insulin. So fat storage will be high, with hyperglycemia and hyperinsulinemia

It has been shown that inhibiting lipolysis, which lowers the amount of free fatty acids in the blood, effectively allows the cells to resume the oxidation of glucose Unless you have another problem like a deficiency in one of the enzymes of the krebs cycle or there's a deficiency in the electron transport chain Most people lowering the free fatty acids will reverse this insulin resistance, the inability to oxidize glucose. There are several drugs on the market that actually I try to do that, but niacinamide has been known to work very well and so does aspirin



let me touch a little bit upon that so a lot of people will say just like you mentioned, don't you have to liberate the fat from your storage in order to lose it?


and just like I mentioned there's always some lipolysis going on, whether you like it or not, you cannot inhibit it completely


and at rest your muscles burn mostly fat. so I would say that a proper regimen of weight lifting, maintaining an anabolic environment, a high sugar diet and low stress will actually burn the fat much more safely, than the strenuous exercise


Some fat is also excreted by the liver through glucuronidation and that process is actually inhibited while you're under stress. So your liver understands that excess fat is not good and it does its best to try to excrete it. But by stressing it (the liver) out with excessive, extraneous exercise. The liver is busy processing all the toxins that are released from your colon and intestines as a result of the bacteria getting irritated and producing endotoxin. And so the process of glucoronidation almost completely stops while you're under stress.


At rest the body consumes mostly fat for the muscles and especially the hart and mostly glucose for vital organs like the brain and the gonads.


So fatty acids are transported in the blood mostly to hepatocytes which are liver cells adipocytes, which are your fat cells, or to muscle fibers Niacinamide helps the hepatocytes glucoronidate and excrete the fat, and it does this by inhibiting the synthesis of triglycerides by the liver.


so fatty acids reaching the liver while taking niacinamide will tend to get excreted instead of converting into triglycerides and transported to the tissues for oxidation and storage.


Muscles oxidize fat as their main fuel at rest, and with proper insulin sensitivity, the fat will not be stored into the adipocytes, if your liver is doing well and it's not stressed


So you have three targets of the fatty acids, your liver, your fat tissue and your muscles. If you're not under stress, your liver and your muscles will take care of the fat that you want to lose. So in order to keep the fatty acids only going to the hepatocytes and muscles, insulin should not be high, which means no stress, which means no high cortisol or adrenaline, no excessive lipolysis and no insulin resistance. In other words, you want insulin to be low and minimal lipolysis


These free fatty acids in the blood destroy your insulin sensitivity directly, Through the randle cycle and by being an insulin receptor antagonist


so keeping the stress hormones at bay is paramount for both the prevention of storage of dietary fat, and also allowing the fat to be properly oxidized and excreted without additional stress


As I mentioned the stress inhibits the glucuronidation process, and also makes the cells produce lactic acid instead of oxidizing the fat properly through beta oxidation

----------------------------------------------------------
Excerpts of Georgi on weight loss. Maybe that might help you decide what to do
Hey that was excellent and very detailed and appreciate the time you took writing it.... I should mention that my triglycerides are sky high at 460, so how does lipolysis and carbohydrates versus fat foods influence that ?
 

Nomane Euger

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Sep 22, 2020
Messages
321
Let’s call a spade a spade, everyone is different.... I’m 6’3”, and 235 pounds, with high cholesterol and somewhat of a belly.... I don’t think low carb is the answer for me, unless it’s also low fat... Can one do low fat and decent lean white meats but also needing to rely on Carbohydrates for satiety ? I suppose with either diet, I can avoid carbs and rely on lean meat and vegetables.... but am I somewhat right in believing that people can lose weight and still eat carbohydrates ? Thank You Guys and love this group with all my heart !
do you know whats your vitamine D status?
 

keytothecity

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Dec 5, 2020
Messages
204
I did an experiment and tracked everything
Gaining weight on 2.5k cal high fat
Keeping weight on 4k cal low fat high carb
 

theantagonist

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Messages
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Hey that was excellent and very detailed and appreciate the time you took writing it.... I should mention that my triglycerides are sky high at 460, so how does lipolysis and carbohydrates versus fat foods influence that ?
No problem @Frankdee20, it's a transcript from danny roddy show. None of the credit is mine.

If i'm not mistaken high triglycerides are a sign of elevated lipolysis/ free fatty acids in the blood. Whatever the liver can't process for glucoronidation, will either store in the liver as liver fat. or release in the blood for fat oxidation or storage.

So this could be a piece of the puzzle of you gaining weight/inability to lose weight. 460 is really high, i think mine were 60 on my last blood labs.

I however think you might need more than just changing macronutrients to change the cycle you're in (aspirin, niacinamide etc..)
 

Frankdee20

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No problem @Frankdee20, it's a transcript from danny roddy show. None of the credit is mine.

If i'm not mistaken high triglycerides are a sign of elevated lipolysis/ free fatty acids in the blood. Whatever the liver can't process for glucoronidation, will either store in the liver as liver fat. or release in the blood for fat oxidation or storage.

So this could be a piece of the puzzle of you gaining weight/inability to lose weight. 460 is really high, i think mine were 60 on my last blood labs.

I however think you might need more than just changing macronutrients to change the cycle you're in (aspirin, niacinamide etc..)
Yeah it’s scary, and losing some weight should help lower that... basically you are highlighting the need to inhibit the release of free fatty acids ? Aspirin, Niacinamide, but what else ?
 
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