Low fat / Lipolysis / Adrenaline Sensitivity

[nograde]

Maybe someone can help me out with the following:

Trying a very low-fat approach now for several months (< 30g) but I consistently get estrogen related symptoms when going below a certain threshold. I think it has something to do with increased PUFA release because Vitamin E (and also coconut oil) helps to get symptoms in check quickly but that has another downside: After a while of low-fat + Vitamin E (1500 IU) I become very hot, sweating profusely, stressed out, anxious and I think very sensitive to Adrenaline (coffee can be very dangerous in such a situation). Also, gastrointestinal hypermotility quickly escalates into full-blown diarrhea. In such a hyperexcited state Niacinamide 500mg brings me down quickly.

What should I make of all this? I don't want to increase my fat intake because that would immediately lead to weight gain (>70g fat seems to be the threshold here, I'm now at 88kg and want to loose fat). Nutrition-wise everything is ok according to Peaty standards. ~2800 kcals/day.

Specifically I want to ask if there's consensus that Niacinamide as a lipolysis inhibitor would halt my ongoing fat-loss? Please see here http://peatarian.com/44809/lipolysis-confusion ... I think we didn't come to a definitive conclusion in that thread.

Thank you.

 

[Waremu]

How much protein do you consume with your coffee and carbs? I believe Dr. Peat advices people who are in bad health to begin by trying a 3:1 ratio of carbs to protein and as you become healthier you can try and might need a 2:1 ratio. I personally use roughly a 3:1 ratio with pretty good success. I also take plenty of niacinamide (500-600mg) and plenty of Vitamin B1 (1400-1500mg) with each serving of 200mg of caffeine from coffee. I also usually take one aspirin with it. This keeps me pretty warm and pulse up, usually. The only time I don't take aspirin is first thing in the morning because it crashes my blood sugar with the thyroid, but I am sure it will improve over time to the point where I can take it in the morning.

As far as niacinamide inhibiting fat loss, I have one theory I am looking into that could be plausible. I think it is possible at first to inhibit fat loss, but eventually it will inhibit free fatty acids from being broken down for energy via stress (like most diets do today) and allow the muscle to burn it off, possibly. If you lift weights correctly, building muscle will burn a lot of fat. This is well known in bodybuilding and I have experienced this too, as I have been bodybuilding/strength training for quite some time.

I find I can literally eat tons of carbohydrates as long I keep fat very low (10-15% or less of total calories). Of course the metabolism for converting crabs into fat is very inefficient and it has actually been shown in studies that you have to not only eat insane amounts of carbs to restore glycogen reserves, but then after any bit that turns into fat, it is usually a very very small amount of fat. In fact, so small it isn't even noticeable. Also, if fat is low, there is no to too little fat to be stored by insulin on the presence of glucose.

So my advice would be to focus on building lean muscle and to go ahead and try niacinamide moderately.

Do you take thyroid? This could also cause adrenaline issues of not taken correctly or if you are new to thyroid. Also, B1 and alt helps with adrenaline. Even if you are eating an ultra low fat diet, on that many calories, you should still be able to eat a moderate to high meal before bed to help keep adrenaline at bay and still be very low fat in your total caloric intake. Do you also take magnesium? I would strongly suggest this. I would save the Vitamin E for your highest fat meal to help with your problem also.

Perhaps not trying t eat too many liquids for a time may help too. For example, try eating Greek Yogurt and low fat to fat free cottage cheese to replace some of the milk in your diet. Perhaps some well cooked potatoes or rice too (if you eat starch). Supplementing with pure fructose and using it to add to meals/drinks instead of sucrose could help also. Pure fructose can prevent sugar crashes as it is not an insulin-dependent sugar. I would also make sure I am getting enough Vitamins A and D and consume them with my highest fat meal before bed also.

 

[nograde]

Thank you Waremu for your answer. I strive for 110g Protein but I think it might not be enough. Also I take my carbs from fruit juices most of the time now since there's no good fruit available in winter. Together with lots of bone broth and milk that might be too much fluids. My Thyroid status is bad currently (TSH 4.5) I take Armour sometimes before bed, but I have to be careful not to overdo it because it can give me bad adrenaline rushes the whole next day.

All in all I think my body completely adjusted to Adrenaline/fat burning over the last decades and going very low fat exacerbates that condition. I also have the feeling that my body can't utilize food and especially sugars effectively. I am NEVER hungry altough I feel bad when I eat below 2500 kcals. Essentially I have to force-feed myself.

 

[Waremu]

The amour could be giving you adrenaline sensitivity issues. How long have you been taking the armour for? If you have been taking it for more than a month and are still seeing adrenaline issues the next day then it is probably the thyroid. f this is the case, then I would drop the armour (if you are able to do without it) and take the mixture of niacinamide, B1, and caffeine that I mentioned above throughout the day with each meal, and see how that works for you. It might work better than the armour. How long have you been eating higher carb for? Were you doing low carb before following Peat?

 

[nograde]

I take Armour sporadically only when feeling very cold and stressed out from work. If I take 1/2 of a grain on two successive evenings the chances of an adrenaline rush on the third day gets very high. I once tried Armour for a month every day which ended in a desaster: Severe water retention, headache and pain behind the eyes (obviously caused by increased intracranial pressure). Ray told me its probably the excess T4 causing trouble.

Regarding Thiamine, what effects does it have for you? I tried moderate to high doses for a week but felt absolutely nothing.

A final question: why do you think does Ray recommend only moderate niacinamide doses (up to 100 mg, maybe twice a day). What could possibly happen when taking much higher doses regularly, like you do?

Edit: Regarding high carb/Peating: Doing it two years now, but going down with fat below 30g only for the last several months. before Peating I was on a three-year lowcarb "diet". Lean as f*ck but almost suicidal in the end ;-)

 

[tara]

Speculation, but I wonder if you are effectively increasing your metabolism to the extent that you need more carbs and a bit more protein to keep up with it, and could be experiencing stress from coffee etc from this deficit.

 

[Filip1993]

In my experience, if you eat 30 grams of fat or less you really have to eat a high calorie/high carb diet to feel good. When I eat 30 grams of fat or less I need at least 3200 calories to feel ok.

 

[visionofstrength]

Maybe someone can help me out with the following:

Trying a very low-fat approach now for several months (< 30g) but I consistently get estrogen related symptoms when going below a certain threshold. I think it has something to do with increased PUFA release because Vitamin E (and also coconut oil) helps to get symptoms in check quickly but that has another downside: After a while of low-fat + Vitamin E (1500 IU) I become very hot, sweating profusely, stressed out, anxious and I think very sensitive to Adrenaline (coffee can be very dangerous in such a situation). Also, gastrointestinal hypermotility quickly escalates into full-blown diarrhea. In such a hyperexcited state Niacinamide 500mg brings me down quickly.
jus
What should I make of all this? I don't want to increase my fat intake because that would immediately lead to weight gain (>70g fat seems to be the threshold here, I'm now at 88kg and want to loose fat). Nutrition-wise everything is ok according to Peaty standards. ~2800 kcals/day.

Specifically I want to ask if there's consensus that Niacinamide as a lipolysis inhibitor would halt my ongoing fat-loss? Please see here http://peatarian.com/44809/lipolysis-confusion ... I think we didn't come to a definitive conclusion in that thread.

Thank you.

I answered this over in another thread, so please forgive me for repeating myself?

The popular description of "fat-burning" is wrong or misleading because Peat believes that you should burn glucose, not fat (with exceptions below).

If you do burn glucose cleanly, like a hot blue flame, your metabolic energy increases, and all is good.

If you don't, you'll create lots of "smoke" that causes all sorts of metabolic havoc (think free radicals, lactic acid, etc.). Have you ever put non-hydrogenated vegetable oil on a hot griddle. Lots of smoke!!! That's the same smoke you would get in your body! Bad!!!

Enter niacinamide. Niacinamide reduces this "smoke." It's good stuff, well-tested in clinical practice in the 1940's, but a dose of more than 250 mg. at a time seems to be wasted. Take niacinamide (250 mg.) early and often, every two hours. You can't go wrong. The smoke from your metabolic flame will clear.

Now, worried about fat loss? Don't be. If your metabolic rate is sufficiently high, you will lose fat. If it's not, you won't -- unless you starve yourself only making matters worse in the long term. It's a shame that people waste so much money and time on "diets" for fat loss, when all "diets" are futile in the long term unless your metabolic rate increases.

What is your metabolic rate? Measure it for yourself with a CO2 sensor. There should be 5-6% CO2 in your exhaled breath.

OK, lipolysis. Not to go all peatarian technical on your a__, but there are two kinds of fat as you know, good (saturated) and bad (unsaturated).

Good fat (saturated) can be used efficiently as energy. Eat as much as you want, especially coconut/MCT oil. No worries. There's no smoke when using saturated fat! Niacinamide will not interfere with using this smokeless saturated fat as energy.

But bad fat (unsaturated) really should never be used as energy unless you are starving! And niacinamide and aspirin DO help avoid burning only this bad, unsaturated fat (anti-lipolysis).

Last question: how do you get rid of unsaturated fat if you don't use it for energy? ...

The main way they [PUFA] are detoxified is by attaching glucuronic acid, making them water soluble, so they leave in the urine. Keeping the free fatty acids low in relation to albumin, they will largely be carried bound to the albumin to the liver.

Fundamentally, what you're describing in your symptoms is someone who hasn't quite yet improved his metabolic rate to the magic number of 5-6% exhaled CO2. Keep on keeping on! You'll get there! Peat's ideas really do work!

 

[tomisonbottom]

Maybe someone can help me out with the following:

Trying a very low-fat approach now for several months (< 30g) but I consistently get estrogen related symptoms when going below a certain threshold. I think it has something to do with increased PUFA release because Vitamin E (and also coconut oil) helps to get symptoms in check quickly but that has another downside: After a while of low-fat + Vitamin E (1500 IU) I become very hot, sweating profusely, stressed out, anxious and I think very sensitive to Adrenaline (coffee can be very dangerous in such a situation). Also, gastrointestinal hypermotility quickly escalates into full-blown diarrhea. In such a hyperexcited state Niacinamide 500mg brings me down quickly.
jus
What should I make of all this? I don't want to increase my fat intake because that would immediately lead to weight gain (>70g fat seems to be the threshold here, I'm now at 88kg and want to loose fat). Nutrition-wise everything is ok according to Peaty standards. ~2800 kcals/day.

Specifically I want to ask if there's consensus that Niacinamide as a lipolysis inhibitor would halt my ongoing fat-loss? Please see here http://peatarian.com/44809/lipolysis-confusion ... I think we didn't come to a definitive conclusion in that thread.

Thank you.

Measure it for yourself with a CO2 sensor. There should be 5-6% CO2 in your exhaled breath.

Where do you get a Co2 sensor? I looked online and they all were around $1000.00......what do you use for that?

 

[visionofstrength]

Where do you get a Co2 sensor? I looked online and they all were around $1000.00......what do you use for that?

I PM'd the specs to you.

 

[HDD]

VoS, could you PM me, too? Thanks for the post above, I just broke down my 500 mg Niacinamide capsule to try again. Nasty tasting stuff.

 

[visionofstrength]

VoS, could you PM me, too? Thanks for the post above, I just broke down my 500 mg Niacinamide capsule to try again. Nasty tasting stuff.

Sent it. I'm here if you have questions!

 

[nograde]

VoS thanks for your input. Niacinamide really helps me a lot; just like Coconut Oil it somehow takes the brakes from my internal machinery, Peat's blue flame analogy makes sense at least from what I feel. Whenever I do something to ramp up metabolism, like taking thyroid or drinking lots of coffee my pulse goes up and I feel warm, but it just does not feel right, e.g. very high breathing frequency, congested nose etc. If I overdo it I get severe edema/water retention, headache, pain behind the eyes and various inflammatory symptoms. On the other hand keeping pulse/metabolism moderate just to the point of feeling calm, relaxed and warm very often leads to extreme loss of water, peeing every half an hour. This way I sometimes loose almost 4kg within one day.

I think I will continue to use Niacinamide because it makes me feel right. I have my doubts that it selectively inhibits PUFA release (versus overall sat & unsaturated FFA release). Do you have any sources or quotes on that? Anyway, even at the danger of preventing some weight loss I will try it for a few weeks.

As for ways to get rid of PUFA, besides the liver route, what about PUFA oxidation in muscle? How much do you think does it contribute to elimination?

 

[visionofstrength]

VoS thanks for your input. Niacinamide really helps me a lot; just like Coconut Oil it somehow takes the brakes from my internal machinery, Peat's blue flame analogy makes sense at least from what I feel. Whenever I do something to ramp up metabolism, like taking thyroid or drinking lots of coffee my pulse goes up and I feel warm, but it just does not feel right, e.g. very high breathing frequency, congested nose etc. If I overdo it I get severe edema/water retention, headache, pain behind the eyes and various inflammatory symptoms. On the other hand keeping pulse/metabolism moderate just to the point of feeling calm, relaxed and warm very often leads to extreme loss of water, peeing every half an hour. This way I sometimes loose almost 4kg within one day.

The thing with niacinamide is that it has a very short half life and so I need to take 250 mg. every two hours or so, and even as much as 5,000 mg per day in divided doses is therapeutic. Kaufman showed this in 1,000 patients over a year of use. http://orthomolecular.org/library/jom/2 ... 1-p029.pdf

I use magnesium bicarbonate water as well for symptoms like yours. It's very calming if I happen to be low in magnesium or carbonates. Recipe is here:
http://www.afibbers.org/Wallerwater.pdf

I think I will continue to use Niacinamide because it makes me feel right. I have my doubts that it selectively inhibits PUFA release (versus overall sat & unsaturated FFA release). Do you have any sources or quotes on that? Anyway, even at the danger of preventing some weight loss I will try it for a few weeks.

Peat thinks Niacinamide improves the the NAD+/NADH ratio. He writes about it quite a bit, and in his newsletters (which are an excellent value). This NAD+/NADH ratio is what suffers with lipolysis of unsaturated fat. Some of Peat's quotes about this are excerpted here: http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... acinamide/

As for ways to get rid of PUFA, besides the liver route, what about PUFA oxidation in muscle? How much do you think does it contribute to elimination?

Some seems to be stored in muscle, yes. I find muscle is easy to acquire if I just eat a little casein (milk or cottage cheese) every hour. Muscle has a simple cycle of growth in the presence of casein, and shrinking in its absence.

The cool thing for me is that PUFA does not need to be "burned" at all because it can be safely excreted in the urine.

 

[tomisonbottom]

How much protein do you consume with your coffee and carbs? I believe Dr. Peat advices people who are in bad health to begin by trying a 3:1 ratio of carbs to protein and as you become healthier you can try and might need a 2:1 ratio. I personally use roughly a 3:1 ratio with pretty good success. I also take plenty of niacinamide (500-600mg) and plenty of Vitamin B1 (1400-1500mg) with each serving of 200mg of caffeine from coffee. I also usually take one aspirin with it. This keeps me pretty warm and pulse up, usually. The only time I don't take aspirin is first thing in the morning because it crashes my blood sugar with the thyroid, but I am sure it will improve over time to the point where I can take it in the morning.

Are you still taking that much B1?

I just read this from a transcript:
HD: OK so I just very quickly want you to remind listeners, the dose, and you mentioned specifically for cancers even, for B1 and you mentioned: two to three hundred milligrams in divided doses?
RP: Yeah, it's safe to take as much as 300mg during a day.

I was wondering where you got that number from.....what's the reason for taking 1500mg?
I was about to take the same because I heard it helped with energy, but it sounds like RP doesn't think that's a good idea....

 

[Ben]

Where do you get a Co2 sensor? I looked online and they all were around $1000.00......what do you use for that?

I PM'd the specs to you.

I'm interested too.

 

[Waremu]

I don't get the idea that, from reading the quote, Ray Peat thinks taking more than 300mg B1 is a bad idea at all. He said "it's safe to take as much as 300mg a day", but it seems like he was just throwing out a somewhat higher number for an example. He didn't say "it's safe to take up to 300mg a day." I think I am pretty sure I have read quotes from him recommending much more than that. In fact, in one quote that I read of his he said it was safe to take 300mg B1 every few hours to, I believe, reduce ammonia.

The 1500mg number for B1 is what some have found to be a sweet spot when they take niacinamide and aspirin and caffeine together (especially as far as body temperature is concerned). If I go below the 750mg-1500mg window when I take all these supplements together, I do not notice as much of a increase in my overall body temperature. It probably is the sweet spot for those who are still experiencing low body temperature from hypothyroidism, etc. But lately I have been experimenting more with the lower end of B1 (800mg) and even 300mg. My body temperature usually stays high from afternoon, but, for some reason, before or up until noon, it is usually lower than it should be, even if my pulse is up. So when I began using B1 I was taking much larger doses for that reason in early day as it helps keep my body temperature up, so I just took that amount with the rest of my meals. But now I am finding that half the amount and even less with my later meals still works well with the niacinamide, caffeine, and aspirin. So no, I am not taking that much except maybe for one meal out of the day and that is about it. Many people here take way more than 300mg B1 daily too. But I am not aware of any health issues that would come from taking that much, from everything I have researched. But, of course, try whatever amount you feel comfortable and then go from there and just pay attention to your body for any changes, etc. Hope that helps.

How much protein do you consume with your coffee and carbs? I believe Dr. Peat advices people who are in bad health to begin by trying a 3:1 ratio of carbs to protein and as you become healthier you can try and might need a 2:1 ratio. I personally use roughly a 3:1 ratio with pretty good success. I also take plenty of niacinamide (500-600mg) and plenty of Vitamin B1 (1400-1500mg) with each serving of 200mg of caffeine from coffee. I also usually take one aspirin with it. This keeps me pretty warm and pulse up, usually. The only time I don't take aspirin is first thing in the morning because it crashes my blood sugar with the thyroid, but I am sure it will improve over time to the point where I can take it in the morning.

Are you still taking that much B1?

I just read this from a transcript:
HD: OK so I just very quickly want you to remind listeners, the dose, and you mentioned specifically for cancers even, for B1 and you mentioned: two to three hundred milligrams in divided doses?
RP: Yeah, it's safe to take as much as 300mg during a day.

I was wondering where you got that number from.....what's the reason for taking 1500mg?
I was about to take the same because I heard it helped with energy, but it sounds like RP doesn't think that's a good idea....