Low-Fat Diet, Hypocaloric Diet, Weight Loss, Metabolism

[thebigpeatowski]

Hi Dean....The number of calories depends entirely on your personal metabolic rate, your lean body mass, your ability to tolerate discomfort, whether or not you have been previously restricting, your current nutritional status etc.

I think a 5'11" man would need more protein than 100 grams.

I'm also 48, but there is NO way that I could have done this without thyroid medication, not a chance.

 

[Dean]

Tara, I've read some about calorie restriction in terms of extending life span and such. Will have to look for info on the "Minnesota" experiment.

Yeah, I kind of expected the response would be that I'd need more calories. It's been 3-4 years since I read a lot of Ray's articles and blitzed through listening to his interviews. Though, I thought it stuck out in my mind that he mentioned 250 grams of carbs as sufficient. That wasn't in the context of a very low fat diet, admittedly. It would be tough for me to get substantially more carbs without relying almost exclusively on table sugar. I remember Peat has talked about using sugar "therapeutically" before. Perhaps this would be an applicable instance.

 

[Dean]

Hi Dean....The number of calories depends entirely on your personal metabolic rate, your lean body mass, your ability to tolerate discomfort, whether or not you have been previously restricting, your current nutritional status etc.

I think a 5'11" man would need more protein than 100 grams.

I'm also 48, but there is NO way that I could have done this without thyroid medication, not a chance.

Thanks for the response, thebigpeatkowski. I've been reading your low fat, no starch experiment with interest. Actually, my metabolism is so slow...1500 calories doesn't offer much in the way of discomfort as long as I'm eating nutrient dense foods.

The protein thing is a tough one. I've always been fairly low in protein consumption and believe I've heard Dr. Peat warm against consuming too much protein if you have impaired liver function. I did pretty well on a zero carb (all-meat) experiment I did a few years ago as long as the meat was on the leaner side. Didn't do well at all when I tried it with fatty meat. So, maybe I should shoot for higher protein. How much? 120? 150?

Interesting what you say about needing the thyroid med to get through it. I would have thought the thyroid supp. would have put strain on you to keep up with micro and macro nutrient needs. Without the calories from fat and no starch, you must have been downing some serious amounts of fruit and spending a pretty penny.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

It was pretty much a full-time job micro-managing the whole thing.....and Yes, I certainly had some occasions where I pushed too hard and literally was spooning sugar (or drinking honey straight from the bottle) into my mouth as fast as I could to stop the reaction. I didn't exercise at all beyond walking occasionally and even that caused a temperature drop.

As a small sedentary woman, I probably don't need to eat as much food as a man, so I really have NO idea how much food you would need to take in. I spent weeks prior to doing this tracking on Cron-O in order to see where my break-even point was, calorically speaking. How much fat do you figure you need to lose? I'll try to find my notes where I calculated my lean body mass as that's how I figured how much protein to eat....

I'm not entirely sure that I would attempt to diet with impaired liver function and no thyroid meds, especially if you already have a sluggish metabolism.

Having said that, I do think my experiment helped my liver enormously. Perhaps the improvements were due to the increased protein, or extra B vits, or fructose, or increased thyroid meds, or the break from having to digest fat, or the reduction in endotoxin from no starch, or reduced estrogen....or all of the above???

 

[Dean]

How much fat? I've lost (and gained) weight plenty of times in my life, in plenty of ways. But, even getting down to 165-170 pounds still leaves me with quite a paunch to carry about on my tooth pick legs. LOL.

My liver is screwed. This is all probably just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, but, hey, it's better than just standing there watching the wave roll in. I am minus my gallbladder and have had issues with my pancreas in the past, so very low fat is probably a pretty good route to go. I've tried lots of stuff, but very low fat, yet high calorie is not among them. Why not try guzzling a glass of simple syrup with every meal? Can't hurt. Other than turning my face into a pincushion.

 

[tara]

Hi Dean,
What methods have you tried so far to raise your metabolism?
How do you know your liver is screwed? What have you tried so far to give it a hand?
I would think it would make sense to try to get your metabolism revving a bit faster as a priority over trying to lose fat with your current low metabolism, or even lowering it further by further restriction. No guarantees, but if yo can get your metabolism up, some other things are likely to improve.
If you can gradually add a little muscle to your tooth picks, that might help too. I'm not suggesting major exhausting workouts, but something every day or so that pushes them a little beyond what they are doing now, along with making sure to meet nutrient needs.
For protein, you can try 100g, and you can try 120g and 150g and see what seems to work best for you.
Some refined sucrose is probably OK, but if you are going to eat a lot of it, it is important to get the minerals and vitamins etc you need to metabolise it from somewhere. Cronometer can give you an idea how you are doing with meeting micronutrient needs too.

In the Minnesota experiment, a bunch of young conscientious objectors agreed to participate in an experiment that involved semi-starvation over a few months, and then refeeding and recovery.
They started on a standardized diet of around 3200 (considered to be reasonable maintenance). Then their semi-starvation diet varied from person to person, but of the order of 1600 cals. They were in pretty bad shape after a few months of this. It then took a lot of calories to recover (I think over 4000 was typical). So when I read of men eating 1500, 1600, 1700 cals, this is what I think of. There is some discussion of it in a thread here, and some more description on Wikipedia and other sources.

 

[Such_Saturation]

drinking honey straight from the bottle

I was doing that as I read it Uh oh...

 

[thebigpeatowski]

I agree, if you have no gallbladder and your pancreas is prone to giving you trouble then low fat is gonna be what's best....certainly for several months, perhaps for life.

What is the nature of your pancreatic troubles? Are you diabetic? Are you diligently restricting PUFA? Are you taking or have you tried pancreatic/digestive enzymes?

What is your current diet like? I would focus on getting carbs from OJ, NOT simple syrup. It sounds like you have a lot of healing to do, dense nutrition is where it's at (especially at our age), not empty calories. But truly, none of this matters if you aren't willing to give up PUFA for the rest of your life, pancreatic issues can be quite serious. :2cents

 

[thebigpeatowski]

drinking honey straight from the bottle

I was doing that as I read it Uh oh...

My fellow insulin junkie...

 

[Peata]

Well, here's my update: It's been six months since I finished this experiment. I currently weigh 135 pounds, my ending weight was 132 last September, so I have gained back 3 pounds in 6 months. Please note this winter included many crazy holiday/playoff games parties with LOTS of eating and NO exercise.

My metabolism has not slowed one bit, on the contrary, I have had to DROP my thyroid medication. I might add back a tiny bit (far less than my previous dose if I do), but I'm still watching how my body reacts to the change in weather etc. so I might not add it back at all. Waking temp is 98.2 and reaches 99.3 to 99.5 in the afternoon. I also noticed that I need more liquids, whereas prior to my experiment too many liquids made me feel cold or disturbed my digestion.

My conclusion is that rapid fat loss in a severely PUFA restricted environment does NOT wreck metabolism...That Ray Peat, he sure knows a thing or two.

One thing I was wondering: I know this works very well for people who need to lose a LOT of fat (I needed to lose 45-50 pounds), but my question is has anyone tried this to lose only ten or 15 pounds?

I might try this again....my ultimate goal is to be 120-125 (I'm only 5'2")...still thinking I should work it off through exercise, but sometimes too much exercise leaves me COLD (a feeling I've grown to hate).

thanks for the update. if you decide to try it again to lose your remaining unwanted pounds, let us know how it turns out. i've said before, your success provides hope. I feel our situation is similar in many ways, although there are differences too. but i have hope it can work for me as well.

do you, or anyone, know if there could be a problem with eating too much protein while doing the low fat, high carb weight loss/liver healing way we've been talking about on the board? Does protein turn to fat at some point? or is it safe to eat in large amounts as long as it's balanced by carbs.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

do you, or anyone, know if there could be a problem with eating too much protein while doing the low fat, high carb weight loss/liver healing way we've been talking about on the board? Does protein turn to fat at some point? or is it safe to eat in large amounts as long as it's balanced by carbs.

I have no idea, I did it this way for a few reasons: Firstly, I felt that the higher protein intake might help to offset muscle loss. Secondly, I was hoping that more protein would provide some sort of satiety factor. And thirdly, I read some where that RP said plenty of protein was actually good for the liver....so that's what I did.

 

[Peata]

do you, or anyone, know if there could be a problem with eating too much protein while doing the low fat, high carb weight loss/liver healing way we've been talking about on the board? Does protein turn to fat at some point? or is it safe to eat in large amounts as long as it's balanced by carbs.

I have no idea, I did it this way for a few reasons: Firstly, I felt that the higher protein intake might help to offset muscle loss. Secondly, I was hoping that more protein would provide some sort of satiety factor. And thirdly, I read some where that RP said plenty of protein was actually good for the liver....so that's what I did.

All that is exactly my thinking on it too. Hopefully there's not a downside.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

My mother told me that my step-father, who is a type 2 diabetic, has problems with his kidneys if he eats too much protein...but as a diabetic, he follows the standard protocol (low-carb dogma). She is horrified by my OJ intake I have watched my step-father's diet for 30 years, since before he was diagnosed. I can guarantee you that he did not become diabetic by eating fruit, he eats massive amounts of PUFA.

 

[moss]

My mother told me that my step-father, who is a type 2 diabetic, has problems with his kidneys if he eats too much protein...but as a diabetic, he follows the standard protocol (low-carb dogma). She is horrified by my OJ intake I have watched my step-father's diet for 30 years, since before he was diagnosed. I can guarantee you that he did not become diabetic by eating fruit, he eats massive amounts of PUFA.

Glycemia, starch and sugar in context

“Professional opinion” can be propagated about 10,000 times faster than research can evaluate it, or, as C. H. Spurgeon said, "A lie travels round the world while Truth is putting on her boots."

In the 1970s, dietitians began talking about the value of including "complex carbohydrates" in the diet. Many dietitians (all but one of the Registered Dietitians that I knew of) claimed that starches were more slowly absorbed than sugars, and so should be less disruptive to the blood sugar and insulin levels. People were told to eat whole grains and legumes, and to avoid fruit juices.

These recommendations, and their supporting ideology, are still rampant in the culture of the United States, fostered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the American Dietetic Association and the American Diabetes Association and innumerable university departments of home economics, dietetics, or nutrition.

Judging by present and past statements of the American Dietetic Association, I think some kind of institutional brain defect might account for their recommendations. Although the dietetic association now feebly acknowledges that sugars don't raise the blood sugar more quickly than starches do, they can't get away from their absurd old recommendations, which were never scientifically justified: “Eat more starches, such as bread, cereal, and starchy vegetables--6 servings a day or more. Start the day with cold (dry) cereal with nonfat/skim milk or a bagel with one teaspoon of jelly/jam. Put starch center stage--pasta with tomato sauce, baked potato with chili, rice and stir-fried beef and vegetables. Add cooked black beans, corn, or garbanzo beans (chickpeas) to salads or casseroles.”

RP

 

[max219]

I've been eating between 3-10 grams of fat for the past 4 months now. I only ate between 30-40 grams maybe 5 times, and I ate around 100 grams on Christmas Day.

I enjoy eating this low fat, and I seem to maintain my body weight no matter how much I eat. I eat between 3000-3700 on average, and eat over 4000 calories once every 10 days or so. I am always 145-147 pounds no matter what. I feel I can lose fat easily if I drop it below 3000 calories for an extended period of time.

I have no idea if my pufa is depleted or not, but I feel pretty good doing this. I eat a ton of protein (about 200 grams each day on average), and I eat a good amount of starch also.

 

[barbwirehouse]

I've lowered my fat intake to 20 g. or less per day for a week now

How do you even?

I get 20g of fat just in milk... then we've got cheese, yogurt, ice cream, chocolate and meat...

 

[Dean]

tara and thebigpeatowski, it's so nice of you to show such interest and concern. I really should not have hijacked the thread with my pity party though. Maybe it would be better if it is moved to the testimonial section or something.

I do pretty distinctly recall that Peat thought people with impaired liver function shouldn't stray too far from 80 grams a day. Not saying he is right or maybe it's just a case of him being overly cautious in giving general recommendations. It does seem that since I've been back reading the forum here after a few years absence that quite a few people seem to be reporting good results with higher amounts of daily protein.

 

[Peata]

I've lowered my fat intake to 20 g. or less per day for a week now

How do you even?

I get 20g of fat just in milk... then we've got cheese, yogurt, ice cream, chocolate and meat...

skim milk, cod, nonfat greek yogurt, lowfat cottage cheese, lowfat string cheese, fat free turkey slices, liver, imitation crab and lobster, gelatin, shrimp, reduced fat feta, canned or fresh chicken breast, lean beef, egg white.

maybe not all that in one day. But small amounts of some of them, more of others.

 

[barbwirehouse]

I've lowered my fat intake to 20 g. or less per day for a week now

How do you even?

I get 20g of fat just in milk... then we've got cheese, yogurt, ice cream, chocolate and meat...

skim milk, cod, nonfat greek yogurt, lowfat cottage cheese, lowfat string cheese, fat free turkey slices, liver, imitation crab and lobster, gelatin, shrimp, reduced fat feta, canned or fresh chicken breast, lean beef, egg white.

maybe not all that in one day. But small amounts of some of them, more of others.

Imitation crab and string cheese are Peat approved? :!:

I think I'll stick to my 80g/fat diet, those foods don't sound too tasty

 

[Peata]

I've lowered my fat intake to 20 g. or less per day for a week now

How do you even?

I get 20g of fat just in milk... then we've got cheese, yogurt, ice cream, chocolate and meat...

skim milk, cod, nonfat greek yogurt, lowfat cottage cheese, lowfat string cheese, fat free turkey slices, liver, imitation crab and lobster, gelatin, shrimp, reduced fat feta, canned or fresh chicken breast, lean beef, egg white.

maybe not all that in one day. But small amounts of some of them, more of others.

Imitation crab and string cheese are Peat approved? :!:

I think I'll stick to my 80g/fat diet, those foods don't sound too tasty

no, not peat approved. i use them a little sometimes for something different. i get the kinds that have the least ingredients I can find.

As far as the low fat diet, I'm just trying a relatively short term change in how I eat to try to get weight loss going and liver better. I don't expect to eat this way continuously. it's just the way I'm eating now for my particular conditions.

I eat carbs more than anything.