Low Estradiol: Serum, Saliva, Urine

[Vegancrossfit]

Some bits of data:

- I’ve never had serum estradiol above 15 pg/mL naturally. Mostly around 10 pg/mL. This is total estradiol.

- saliva testing showed LOW E2. This is free estradiol I believe.

- my most recent Dutch test showed E1, E2 and E3 below range. Free estrogens as well in urine?

- free testosterone is low, total testosterone is normal, melatonin is low, cortisol is high, Dhea is normal

- body fat has never been above 11% ever on multiple DXA scans. They say getting fatter increases aromatase activity. Last time I bulked HBA1c shot up to 6.2%, while body fat was 9.2%. Go figure.

Those are all while being natural. I’ve recently started using nandrolone for hair regrowth, with what seems like good success, however my LLLT might be doing most of the work I’m not sure.

Back on topic: I don’t think that such low levels of E2 are common at all - statistically speaking I’m bottom 2.5% of the population.

What’s Peat’s stance on that?

I am considering HCG, 1000 iu/wk myself, for the long run. Can’t be arsed.

 

[Aries]

[Testosterone] It has to be interpreted in relation to cortisol, estrogen, and sex hormone binding globulin.

[for 35-year-old male] It’s best to have cortisol no higher than the middle of the range, estrogen below the middle, testosterone above the middle. A vitamin D supplement often helps to improve the balance, good thyroid function is essential, adequate protein, good digestion.

[SHBG] I think the SHBG might be less important for men than for women.

It's from Ray Peat wiki. I'm sure you know the basics suggested for lowering cortisol like thyroid, sugar, prog/preg etc.

I don't think he would be concerned about those results.

From TRT forums I have heard a few anecdotes that dropping bodyfat from 20% to 10-12% didn't make a difference in their protocols. They couldn't change AI/T dose or injection frequency. Maybe bodyfat is given too much weight for surrogating estrogen levels despite high amounts of aromatase in the fat cells.

What do you personally think about low estrogen levels? You said naturally they have never been higher but have you tried aromatasing steroids or something to get them higher? Do you feel better with higher estrogen or is below reference range fine?

Have you tested complete WBC? I'm curious if neutrophils and lymphocytes have any correlation with the estrogen levels.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

I think low estrogen = low T. That Dutch test shows T below every single adult range (3 age groups)

That’s a nice quote. Well none of this describes my hormonal profile. He says E2 below mid range, not nonexistent. How I feel isn’t relevant when hormones are abnormal, right? My mindset is to push through anything. So I’m fine, always been extremely aggressive and impatient, business as usual. But I don’t think it’s possible to push through an impending heart attack.

On higher E2 (which was reached thanks to higher T, via HCG or test enanthate) libido is high, I gain 5-10lbs, sleep is improved.

 

[Aries]

I view health as both life quality and longevity that's why I asked about your personal experience with different estrogen levels.

Anyways, Peat doesn't generally give specific advice. Higher and lower side of normal, it's hard to disagree with that.

You are right that it doesn't really answer your question if estrogen can be too low. I think he is very sceptical of health benefits of estrogen but he doesn't explicitly say it should be close to zero either. Yet all his suggestions are for lowering estrogen so it seems he doesn't view low estrogen as a problem. Probably a good idea for many but then there usually is the exception that confirms the rule, like someone with 2.5th percentile estrogen levels.

But AFAIK nobody with that low estrogen levels has emailed him before. Great opportunity to hear his stance on this issue if you do.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Great suggestion, I’ll send him an email. I’ll try to keep things straight to the point, and shoot it whenever I’m happy with the draft.

 

[Hans]

Some bits of data:

- I’ve never had serum estradiol above 15 pg/mL naturally. Mostly around 10 pg/mL. This is total estradiol.

- saliva testing showed LOW E2. This is free estradiol I believe.

- my most recent Dutch test showed E1, E2 and E3 below range. Free estrogens as well in urine?

- free testosterone is low, total testosterone is normal, melatonin is low, cortisol is high, Dhea is normal

- body fat has never been above 11% ever on multiple DXA scans. They say getting fatter increases aromatase activity. Last time I bulked HBA1c shot up to 6.2%, while body fat was 9.2%. Go figure.

Those are all while being natural. I’ve recently started using nandrolone for hair regrowth, with what seems like good success, however my LLLT might be doing most of the work I’m not sure.

Back on topic: I don’t think that such low levels of E2 are common at all - statistically speaking I’m bottom 2.5% of the population.

What’s Peat’s stance on that?

I am considering HCG, 1000 iu/wk myself, for the long run. Can’t be arsed.

Have you ever tested your insulin levels? Insulin suppress SHBG.

It sounds like your adipose tissue is insulin resistant and that's why you struggle to gain fat, but become more insulin resistant in the process. Palmitoleic acid improves insulin sensitivity, and it's produced from carbs and also found in dairy fat.

 

[lvysaur]

Those are all while being natural. I’ve recently started using nandrolone for hair regrowth, with what seems like good success, however my LLLT might be doing most of the work I’m not sure.

Is your name relevant (are you actually vegan)?

low estrogen, low free T, normal total T, low body fat, etc all seem like hallmark vegan metrics

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Have you ever tested your insulin levels? Insulin suppress SHBG.

It sounds like your adipose tissue is insulin resistant and that's why you struggle to gain fat, but become more insulin resistant in the process. Palmitoleic acid improves insulin sensitivity, and it's produced from carbs and also found in dairy fat.

Tested insulin twice. 5 on a mixed diet and 7 on a very high carb diet. I don’t think I struggle to gain fat, I think it’s visceral fat that I gain. Which is not desirable.

@lvysaur no lol. 1 pound of various meats daily.

It’s possible that “low E2 symptoms” are nothing but low T related issues. I feel much better on nandrolone (At the very least 200 mg/wk though) which further drops estrogen levels...

 

[Energizer]

Not all estrogens can be measured in blood tests. There is such a thing as tissue bound estrogens.

 

[tallglass13]

Some bits of data:

- I’ve never had serum estradiol above 15 pg/mL naturally. Mostly around 10 pg/mL. This is total estradiol.


- saliva testing showed LOW E2. This is free estradiol I believe.

- my most recent Dutch test showed E1, E2 and E3 below range. Free estrogens as well in urine?

- free testosterone is low, total testosterone is normal, melatonin is low, cortisol is high, Dhea is normal

- body fat has never been above 11% ever on multiple DXA scans. They say getting fatter increases aromatase activity. Last time I bulked HBA1c shot up to 6.2%, while body fat was 9.2%. Go figure.

Those are all while being natural. I’ve recently started using nandrolone for hair regrowth, with what seems like good success, however my LLLT might be doing most of the work I’m not sure.

Back on topic: I don’t think that such low levels of E2 are common at all - statistically speaking I’m bottom 2.5% of the population.

What’s Peat’s stance on that?

I am considering HCG, 1000 iu/wk myself, for the long run. Can’t be arsed.

Wow so this is interesting. May I ask what Norwood you think you are do you have a bald spot in the back or just thinning? So the interesting part to me is that a person that has had low estrogen levels proven on several different labs, has hair loss. Because of the ray peat and Danny Roddy View, estrogen causes hair loss. So from that perspective you should be protected. I've been thinking about estrogen helping hair growth lately.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

No bald vertex spot. Diffuse thinning on top and nw2 left temple, 1.5 right temple. It’s not THAT bad and I think keeping it short + LLLT keeps it nice and stable. I’m guessing nandrolone now won’t hurt either with DHN being quasi inactive at the receptor. I get scalp itch whenever blood sugar goes swinging. And yeah I’m aware of their views that low E2 is protective against hair loss but I never found a consensus in studies and here I am with nonexistent (free) estrogens and borderline low total E2. If it were that easy then everybody would nuke E2.

I personally subscribe to the theory that hair loss is excess galea tension. It can’t quite be tracked and is vastly patient dependent though, but imo that’s what it is. Bad Genetics + Whatever causes hypertension up there, most likely an imbalance. I’ve had higher BP both on higher E2 (when messing with test enanthate at stupid doses like 150+ mg/wk) and on high “dry” androgens. Shed town.

I don’t remember losing any hair, not even shedding much, when my BP was at the right spot something like 110/70 for me.

 

[Vegancrossfit]

Not all estrogens can be measured in blood tests. There is such a thing as tissue bound estrogens.

you don’t say. FYI prolactin which is a good surrogate for that, always comes back on the low end of the normal range as well.

Besides, this isn’t all blood tests I’m talking about.