Low Dose Naltrexone - LDN

[kiran]

Ray seems to be of the opinion that the whole endorphin rebound theory is bunk, and the positive effect is actually directly from the opioid suppression. Of course, this doesn't say anything at all about whether or not tiny doses would work.

 

[nwo2012]

I am going to try small doses of naloxone. Will try 400mcg nightly and see how I go.

 

[Ray-Z]

LDN messes up my sleep pretty badly when I take it at night. Will try going back to using it in the a.m.

 

[Ray-Z]

Ray seems to be of the opinion that the whole endorphin rebound theory is bunk, and the positive effect is actually directly from the opioid suppression.

Yes, and also favorable effects on estrogen and histamine.

 

[charlie]

Ray-Z, in this thread:

http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/18 ... longevity/

IIRC, a doctor starts a patient out n .25 mg's and that seems to lessen some of the side effects like bothered sleep.

 

[Ray-Z]

Ray-Z, in this thread:

http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/18 ... longevity/

IIRC, a doctor starts a patient out n .25 mg's and that seems to lessen some of the side effects like bothered sleep.

Lots of interesting info and anecdotes in that thread. Thanks, Charlie.

 

[narouz]

Yeah, my takeaway from the Longecity thread in general and
in addition to the posts by "golgi" that I noted,
is that there really only seemed to be one poster who came away
persuaded of the benefits and maintained usage over time.
I think the poster's name was "Funk" something.
And even he checked out of the thread,
so hard to know if he even continued to use the naltrexone.

Seemed like most of the posters/testers
had complaints about sleep disturbance or fading away of perhaps initial promising results.

Our long-lost peatarian said her opinion about it was
that it was best conceived of as a temporary--but maybe valuable-- fix or stabilizer kind of thing.
She echoed Peat who advised her similarly, if I recall correctly.
The general notion was that the LDN sortuv "gives you a break"
when you're struggling with the usual Peat imbalances: estrogen, prolactin, serotonin, etc.

So...for me it is an intriguing drug
but not one which comes with unqualified Peat endorsement
and one which does not even come with a clear and persuasive and well-documented track record
for getting sustained results of the kind we Peatians tend to be interested in.
Still...intriguing.
If it were me trying it, I'd start with the VERY low doses outlined by the "golgi" poster.

 

[charlie]

I think those people not getting good results were simply taking too much. But, I could be wrong.

 

[Birdie]

Here is something I read that may help:

For those of you in the first 3 to 6 months of LDN therapy, you may experience temporarily extra stiffness, headache, numbness, vertigo, sleeplessness, diuretic effect, loss of appetite, extra fatigue, etc. All of the FDA approved MS drugs are immune suppressants except for Copaxone and Fampridine(4-AP).

Dr. Bob Lawrence from the UK who has MS & uses LDN himself explains why the temporary increase in symptoms. Dr Lawrence writes this for MS patients but this can happen with other autoimmune diseases also, not just MS.

When starting this LDN(Low Dose Naltrexone) therapy in the treatment of autoimmune illness, there may also be some initial transient, though temporary, increase in symptoms.

Experience in using this method has demonstrated most commonly, such as disturbed sleep, occasionally with vivid, bizarre and disturbing dreams, tiredness, fatigue, spasm and pain.

Rarely, other transient symptoms have included more severe pain and spasm, headache, diarrhoea or vomiting. These additional symptoms would appear to be associated with the previous frequent use of strong analgesics, which effectively create an addiction and dependency, thus increasing the body's sensitivity to pain.

In addition, because LDN stimulates the immune system and many of the drugs routinely used by the NHS in the treatment of MS and autoimmune disease further suppress the immune system, LDN cannot be used in company with steroids, beta interferon, methotrexate, azathioprine or mitozantrone or any other immune suppressant drug. If there is any doubt, please submit a full list of the drugs you are presently taking so that their compatibility may be assessed.

In addition, because LDN will also block the analgesic effects of any opiate drugs (includes codeine, dihydrocodeine, morphine, pethidine or diamorphine) presently being taken, the use of LDN will initially greatly increase the level of pain experienced. It is therefore advisable that any opiate-like drugs be discontinued at least two weeks before this treatment is initiated. When starting the treatment it is essential that any untoward or adverse side-effects are reported immediately so that the treatment process can be further assessed and, if necessary, modified.

This temporary increase in symptoms may also perhaps be explained when we consider the manner in which this drug is expected to work
.
Initially, MS occurs due to a reduction in the activity of the controlling influence of the suppressor T-cells within the immune system. During an acute relapse, the overall number of T-cells is reduced, the normal balance of helper T-cells and suppressor T-cells is disrupted and the damaging helper (CD-4) T-cells tend to predominate. This is the situation most pronounced during an acute relapse but occurs similarly, but to a lesser extent, in chronic progressive MS. Under the influence of LDN there will be an expected increase in the overall numbers of T-cells but, because the CD-4, helper T-cells tend to predominate at this time, an increase in their numbers will expectedly tend to increase MS symptoms. It is only when the numbers of suppressor T-cells effectively "catch up" that the normal balance is restored and symptoms once again diminish and improve

Dr. M R Lawrence

=========

I found this quoted from an MS forum. It was quoted on an ME/Chronic Fatigue Syn forum that I am reading.

 

[Birdie]

In my searches reading people's personal results using LDN, I find that many people need to start their doses very low and raise them slowly. Some start at .5mg for a month or so, then go to 1.0 for a month or so.

Others are able to start at 3.0 or even 4.5mg. I had slowly worked up to 4.5. Then, I switched from a night dose to a morning dose. Then, I realized the morning dose might be what was causing symptoms of breathlessness, fatigue, etc that appeared after breakie every day. So, I reduced the dose to 3 mg and began a night dose several days ago. My mornings have improved but I have a ways to go.

I'm going to stick with it for my CFS/FMS... It seems to help most people who stick with it. You don't want to stop and start but you can reduce the dose for a while as needed. This way you keep it in your system and do not have to start all over again.

BTW, not sure if anybody mentioned and sorry if repeating but LDN is an immune system regulator.

 

[Lianda]

I've been on LDN for 3 months and don't feel ANY difference.

 

[Lucy]

Be careful with excipients. I've been getting very unusual headaches in November/December, and at first attributed them to raising T3/metabolic rate and my body adjusting. However, in the end they got unbearable and even often turned into migraines. Peat suggested it's excipients, after describing what I'm taking, he wrote:

Did any of the magnesium chloride get on your lips? In my own migraine experience, I found that a very small amount of either vitamin A or magnesium chloride could cause big headaches for two or three days. If I had put vitamin A anywhere on my face or arms, enough would touch my lips to cause the headache. It wasn't the vitamin A or magnesium itself that did it, but some very powerful allergen in the chemically manufactured products. It's possible that some such substance has entered the T3 during its manufacture, so using a different brand might avoid the effect.

When I stopped all supplements, the headaches ceased almost immediately, so it was clearly related to what I was taking (which included a vitamin A supplement once a week) or applying topically (mag. oil daily). I've also been taking LDN in November, and when I tried 2 mg one day again after already being headache-free for some weeks, a horrific headache appeared the next morning. I googled it a bit and it seems some people had an exact same reaction to certain fillers in the naltrexone pills. Although it seems I'm currently sensitive to multiple supplements, not only LDN, I really wouldn't want anyone else thinking "maybe these headaches are a good sign, maybe I'm detoxing or my body is adjusting" and similar, when it almost sent me into a suicidal mode in the end!

On a positive note, LDN really warmed my extremities, despite apparently being allergenic for me, so I guess it was doing me some good too.

 

[Birdie]

I've been on LDN for 3 months and don't feel ANY difference.

There is a big range of reactions, or non as in your case, Lianda.

From the boards I check, where it's used for MS, CE, FM, IBS, ovarian cancer, etc,, that's what I see...

A lot of people report stomach problems, or wakefulness and vivid dreams, or new pain when they start out, and again when they increase the dose. These complaints can last 3 days for some and weeks or months for others.

And I was surprised that there is a Yahoo very low dose site where people have been taking .5 or 1.0mg doses for years. I haven't had a chance to explore there yet.

How much are you taking? At night or morning? Are you taking it for a specific condition? Any impact on your sleep or mood?

I guess one thing that makes it hard to judge is that some of us start so many things at once that it's impossible to sort it out. Doesn't sound like you have that problem though.

Best wishes.

 

[Birdie]

Be careful with excipients. I've been getting very unusual headaches in November/December, and at first attributed them to raising T3/metabolic rate and my body adjusting. However, in the end they got unbearable and even often turned into migraines. Peat suggested it's excipients, after describing what I'm taking, he wrote:

Did any of the magnesium chloride get on your lips? In my own migraine experience, I found that a very small amount of either vitamin A or magnesium chloride could cause big headaches for two or three days. If I had put vitamin A anywhere on my face or arms, enough would touch my lips to cause the headache. It wasn't the vitamin A or magnesium itself that did it, but some very powerful allergen in the chemically manufactured products. It's possible that some such substance has entered the T3 during its manufacture, so using a different brand might avoid the effect.

When I stopped all supplements, the headaches ceased almost immediately, so it was clearly related to what I was taking (which included a vitamin A supplement once a week) or applying topically (mag. oil daily). I've also been taking LDN in November, and when I tried 2 mg one day again after already being headache-free for some weeks, a horrific headache appeared the next morning. I googled it a bit and it seems some people had an exact same reaction to certain fillers in the naltrexone pills. Although it seems I'm currently sensitive to multiple supplements, not only LDN, I really wouldn't want anyone else thinking "maybe these headaches are a good sign, maybe I'm detoxing or my body is adjusting" and similar, when it almost sent me into a suicidal mode in the end!

On a positive note, LDN really warmed my extremities, despite apparently being allergenic for me, so I guess it was doing me some good too.

Hi Lucy-
Yes, excipients can be awful. I've noticed some people getting an RX for the liquid ldn on the boards, too. Some from Skip's in Boca Raton. That was the answer for some people. More expensive.

I'm using the 50mg tabs dissolved/suspended in 50ml water. I was using 4.5ml doses but cut back to 3 and switched from morning (made me drousy with rapid heart beat etc) to nighttime dose which has helped me sleep.

Also, I was getting headaches on awakening when I took the morning dose. But that could be unrelated as you know.

Hope you feel better soon.

 

[Birdie]

BTW, not sure if anybody mentioned and sorry if repeating but LDN is an immune system regulator.

[/quote]]



I just saw this which I wrote earlier.

I should have said, "On the boards I read, one popular theory is that LDN is an immune system regulator."
The general consensus is that no one knows how LDN works, although various docs claim to know.

Ray's approach on the opioid receptor blockage seems to be a well accepted part of various explanations, mixed in with the endorphin raising talk.

There is a lot to pass over on the LDN boards concerning: probiotics, fermentation, sugar and milk abstinence.... But I find valuable info with personal experiences.

 

[Lucy]

Yes Birdie, awful is the right word... I will be approaching them with extreme caution in the future.

What I'm wondering is, what kind of toxic stuff do they put in there? I mean, I don't always eat clean, I do eat at chinese restaurants, fast food joints etc. once in while, and I never, and I mean never, had such headaches from anything I ingested. The only time I had similar migraines was years ago on a really badly suited ketogenic diet with loads of pork and various cheap supplements. I think Peat labeled them "bizarre contaminants" once :)

 

[Birdie]

I've been looking at this lately and listening to some of the utube interviews:

http://www.ldnresearchtrust.org/

Also of note that besides blocking the opioid receptors theory, some think there are changes in the glial cells. More to be revealed.

I am still at 3mg at bedtime.

Something went amiss for me back in late December until late January. Maybe when I started taking the LDN in the morning it stopped working properly. Some people do better with a morning dose, but maybe I wasn't one of them.

The LDN night dose didn't bother my sleep for months, but when I heard it bothered some people, it started to bother me. Then, I switched to the morning. The morning dose made me sleepy and dizzy though. I took my own advice and cut back from 4.5 to 3.0 and went back to an evening dose. :)

Everybody's different. Some take more, some less. Some night dose, some morning. A few split the dose. A few dose every other day. A lot of people start out with 0.5mg and up the dose slowly staying at the same dose for a week or 2....

 

[aussiedownunder]

Do you think it would be helpful with anxiety/ depression/ fatigue issues? I remember Ray Peat mentioned it . Thanks for any info.My daughter has come off her SSRI and still overthinks , low energy etc

 

[Trix]

Do you think it would be helpful with anxiety/ depression/ fatigue issues? I remember Ray Peat mentioned it . Thanks for any info.My daughter has come off her SSRI and still overthinks , low energy etc

Here is a website that lists some clinical trials and patient reports and I just read an interview from Dr Boyle of Ireland on fertility and women's issues.
What is LDN Used for?

 

[aussiedownunder]

Here is a website that lists some clinical trials and patient reports and I just read an interview from Dr Boyle of Ireland on fertility and women's issues.
What is LDN Used for?

Thank you Trix. Sounds promising.