Low-carb Diet Damages Blood Vessels In Humans

[Dennis]

Haidut, have to take you on this. What is your practical exposure to people on ketogenic diets? All the said mechanism of why ketogenic diets are harmful is as far as I can tell only on paper as pointed out by jb116. In the real world there are people on a ketogenic diet for years. ( not because they think it's good but that's the only thing that works.) Now the short term effects of ketogenic diets ( like heart arrhythmia) are well known among ketogenic dieters. No surprises there at all. They call it the keto flu which ranges from 3 weeks to 6 weeks.
Other notes:
- I've been on an all egg, read meat diet ( which turn out to be ketogenic) for 6 years now.
- Based on anecdote evidence on you tube I'm aware of atleast some people who are on a carnivorous diet like me and other on a ketogenic diet who do not report long term negative effects. The ones that seems to report negative effects seems to be the ones who try it for under a week and tell how horrible it is. Isn't it fair that these people be dismissed for not knowing about the keto flu?
- The cortisol issue turns out to be subtle. A different type of cortisol is produced when on a ketogenic diet which is not the same cortisol as the one that is produced when starving. It will be difficult for me to dig out the source for this.
- One can indeed get a ketogenic diet really wrong, if PUFAS and seeds are used then indeed things can go horribly wrong. Informed keto dieters always have saturated fat only. From the little that I have heard peat on the subject he does not make all the subtle differences between various ketogenic diets. In fact I have reason to belive that he know only peripherally about it. ( i.e the typical main stream view)

My point being - At the end of the day we have have a theory and several half baked 'studies' that does not fit in with what diligent informed ketogenic diet practitioner observations. Can we have some intellectually humility on this? Also if these ketogenics dieters can be indeed be harmlessly feed any type of carbs go ahead and suggest, most I suspect ( including me ) will be willing to try. In my case only one brand of honey is what I can take in large amounts and not have any gastrointestinal distress while providing no noticeable positive effects. ALL other carbs including sugar, orange juice, fruit etc. gives me gastrointestinal distress.

 

[postman]

Haidut, have to take you on this. What is your practical exposure to people on ketogenic diets? All the said mechanism of why ketogenic diets are harmful is as far as I can tell only on paper as pointed out by jb116. In the real world there are people on a ketogenic diet for years. ( not because they think it's good but that's the only thing that works.) Now the short term effects of ketogenic diets ( like heart arrhythmia) are well known among ketogenic dieters. No surprises there at all. They call it the keto flu which ranges from 3 weeks to 6 weeks.
Other notes:
- I've been on an all egg, read meat diet ( which turn out to be ketogenic) for 6 years now.
- Based on anecdote evidence on you tube I'm aware of atleast some people who are on a carnivorous diet like me and other on a ketogenic diet who do not report long term negative effects. The ones that seems to report negative effects seems to be the ones who try it for under a week and tell how horrible it is. Isn't it fair that these people be dismissed for not knowing about the keto flu?
- The cortisol issue turns out to be subtle. A different type of cortisol is produced when on a ketogenic diet which is not the same cortisol as the one that is produced when starving. It will be difficult for me to dig out the source for this.
- One can indeed get a ketogenic diet really wrong, if PUFAS and seeds are used then indeed things can go horribly wrong. Informed keto dieters always have saturated fat only. From the little that I have heard peat on the subject he does not make all the subtle differences between various ketogenic diets. In fact I have reason to belive that he know only peripherally about it. ( i.e the typical main stream view)

My point being - At the end of the day we have have a theory and several half baked 'studies' that does not fit in with what diligent informed ketogenic diet practitioner observations. Can we have some intellectually humility on this? Also if these ketogenics dieters can be indeed be harmlessly feed any type of carbs go ahead and suggest, most I suspect ( including me ) will be willing to try. In my case only one brand of honey is what I can take in large amounts and not have any gastrointestinal distress while providing no noticeable positive effects. ALL other carbs including sugar, orange juice, fruit etc. gives me gastrointestinal distress.

If I'm not mistaken @haidut was on a ketogenic diet for quite some time?

 

[haidut]

If I'm not mistaken @haidut was on a ketogenic diet for quite some time?

Yes, I was - in the period 2008-2011. It brought me within an inch of MS diagnosis.
@Dennis - I can't convince anybody that the ketogenic diet is not the way to go. Btw, I am not here to really convince anybody of anything. These days I simply report my experience and the experiments reported in studies I find interesting. If you want to learn first hand, you'd have to try yourself. Fats are surfactants and having surfactants elevated in your blood all the time is a terrible idea. On paper many things look convincing until you try them. My posts and discussions are based not only on studies but I what went through in that 3-year period. It was absolute hell, and I also know quite a few other people who fared worse by going low carb.
Anyways, if you do try please keep us posted.

 

[postman]

Yes, I was - in the period 2008-2011. It brought me within an inch of MS diagnosis.
@Dennis - I can't convince anybody that the ketogenic diet is not the way to go. Btw, I am not here to really convince anybody of anything. These days I simply report my experience and the experiments reported in studies I find interesting. If you want to learn first hand, you'd have to try yourself. Fats are surfactants and having surfactants elevated in your blood all the time is a terrible idea. On paper many things look convincing until you try them. My posts and discussions are based not only on studies but I what went through in that 3-year period. It was absolute hell, and I also know quite a few other people who fared worse by going low carb.
Anyways, if you do try please keep us posted.

Could you please go into further detail about your experience? What were you eating? Did you feel sick when you started out or did you feel good initially? What did you try to tweak to make it work? It sounds like you got seriously ill, how long were you on it before you got so sick you could barely function anymore?

 

[Dennis]

Yes, I was - in the period 2008-2011. It brought me within an inch of MS diagnosis.

Genuinely curious, could you tell us what exactly you ate, with quantities? ( including say for example the cut of meat).
Also quite important what exactly did you eat post your keto diet, that resulted in better health?

@Dennis - I can't convince anybody that the ketogenic diet is not the way to go. Btw, I am not here to really convince anybody of anything. These days I simply report my experience and the experiments reported in studies I find interesting. If you want to learn first hand, you'd have to try yourself.

I believe you meant to address somebody else, I've have been on a carnivorous ketogenic diet ( red meat, eggs and some types of dairy - in smaller quantities coffee + stevia) for the last 6 years. The only carb I seem to be taking well to is 2 brands of honey with no positive effects to report. I can have about half a kg of this honey in one sitting everyday and be fine. So the best I can say is it is harmless. I certainly can sneak in tiny quantities (a table spoonful a day) of fruit and vegetables and get away with it.

Fats are surfactants and having surfactants elevated in your blood all the time is a terrible idea.

Haidut, this is where communication breaks down ( for me atleast). We have to stick to observable results of how people feel. People tend to go down a rabbit hole of mechanisms by which a food or substance maybe good or bad and end up be far removed from reality. Agreed, how people feel can itself hard to have an objective measure, but it is the best in my opinion.

It was absolute hell, and I also know quite a few other people who fared worse by going low carb.

Again, mind digging up what exactly they ate and for how long?

As a side note to anyone reading this - there are enormous variations in the reactions a person can have to the same food depending upon source. One example is milk. There are times I have taken well to milk and other times I have has severe gastrointestinal distress. Moral: when possible always mention the source/brand of food that you have been having for better context.