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Low-carb Diet Damages Blood Vessels In Humans

Discussion in 'Scientific Studies' started by haidut, Apr 1, 2019.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    I posted a study recently showing that low-carb diets increase risk for a potentially fatal heart rhythm disorder known as AFib.
    https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/low-carb-diets-may-cause-lethal-heart-rhythm-disorder-afib.28169/

    Now this new, also human, study below shows that even a short-term (7 days) low-carb intervention impairs glucose metabolism, decreases blood vessel flexibility (FMD), and increases inflammation. If these effects were seen in healthy, young people imagine how much worse they would be in an elderly or sick person.

    Short-Term Low-Carbohydrate High-Fat Diet in Healthy Young Males Renders the Endothelium Susceptible to Hyperglycemia-Induced Damage, An Exploratory Analysis
    "...Postprandial hyperglycemia has been linked to elevated risk of cardiovascular disease. Endothelial dysfunction and/or damage may be one of the mechanisms through which this occurs. In this exploratory study, we determined whether acute glucose ingestion would increase markers of endothelial damage/activation and impair endothelial function before and after a short-term low-carbohydrate high-fat diet (HFD) designed to induce relative glucose intolerance. Nine healthy young males (body mass index 23.2 ± 2 kg/m2) consumed a 75 g glucose drink before and <24 hours after consuming seven days of an iso-energetic HFD consisting of ~70% energy from fat, ~10% energy from carbohydrates, and ~20% energy from protein. CD31+/CD42b- and CD62E+ endothelial microparticles (EMPs) were enumerated at fasting, 1 hour (1 h), and 2 hours (2 h) post-consumption of the glucose drink. Flow-mediated dilation (FMD), arterial stiffness, and diameter, velocity, and flow of the common and internal carotid, and vertebral arteries were assessed in the fasting state and 1 h post glucose consumption. After the HFD, CD31+/CD42b- EMPs were elevated at 1 h compared to 2 h (p = 0.037), with a tendency for an increase above fasting (p = 0.06) only post-HFD. CD62E EMPs followed the same pattern with increased concentration at 1 h compared to 2 h (p = 0.005) post-HFD, with a tendency to be increased above fasting levels (p = 0.078). FMD was reduced at 1 h post glucose consumption both pre- (p = 0.01) and post-HFD (p = 0.005). There was also a reduction in FMD in the fasting state following the HFD (p = 0.02). In conclusion, one week of low-carbohydrate high-fat feeding that leads to a relative impairment in glucose homeostasis in healthy young adults may predispose the endothelium to hyperglycemia-induced damage."
     
  2. jb116

    jb116 Member

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    Does keto also apply here according to this study? Do you think that there is an acute timeline or window where low-carbers/keto people can actually build up muscle and feel "energetic" and accomplished while internally the health is declining? I ask this because since my new job from last year, I have to see so many different people in different cities, etc and what I've noticed is:

    1) keto and/or low carb is becoming extremely popular and common-place and
    2) essentially all of them have shed fat (as expected) but are also working out and have packed on muscle and seem like, "commanders" or better in control.

    For me, I'm taking mental notes for now and also trying to keep track of everybody's health as I will be seeing these people over and over. Their progress in about a year, give or take, just has me curious. I wonder about their future and what is happening to their health if indeed it is not positive in the long run.
     
  3. olive

    olive Member

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    The body optimises for one energy substrate. The SAD diet is both high in fat and carbohydrates, hence the body is always in a limbo type scenario and never able to optimise/“adapt” fully. That’s why these people are thriving on keto. However I’d guess that almost all of them would do even better on ‘carbosis’ (as @tyw eloquently put it), a high carb, low fat diet. Preferably plant based. I’d guess a lot of the issues with keto like the study posted above are due to vitamin deficiencies, vitamin c for instance is necessary for endothelium health and largely lacking in keto diets.
     
  4. jb116

    jb116 Member

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    Sure, the idea of optimization of one substrate seems intuitive but Peat's stance has always been mixed substrates, about 1/3 of each, always does better for digestion and hence down-stream processes. But at any rate my initial curiosity about all of this is, is there something that eventually catches up with low carbing/keto and the short-term success (not just losing weight, but really thriving). I think I might be asking an impossible question when I think about it. Unless there is clear cut follow up of individuals after a longer period of time where this kind of success and thriving is documented only to be followed by a decline of health. I know and understand the answer on paper. I think I am asking in a real-world sense, such that, in case there is some piece of the puzzle that is being missed when it comes to keto specifically really, not just "low carb."
     
  5. olive

    olive Member

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    Yeah, Peat’s “diet” isn’t much better; high fat/high carb. I think that’s why so many on this forum are failing and switching to orthorxic eating patterns (ie Morse).
    There’s nothing especially worrying with keto diets apart from the nutritional deficiencies that will eventually kick in if not supplemented, similar to veganism - in my opinion. I think most smart keto dieters (ie those who supplement essential micronutrients and don’t gourge on PUFA) will outlive those on SAD.
     
  6. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    Peat doesn't recommend high fat and high carb.

    Many forum members here do though. Including me at one point in time until I learned better.

    The problem is that a high SUGAR diet is simply not sustainable. This is why people also fail on high carb low fat and end up adding fat back in. It wasn't until I started lowering protein intake as well as fat AND increased my starch intake that I could achieve satiety on mostly carb diet.

    Starch gets unfairly demonized around here. Starch is the only way for me to finally make the low fat high carb diet work. GLUCOSE is superior. Fructose is useful but not in massive quantities aka Dr. Morse style.
     
  7. DuggaDugga

    DuggaDugga Member

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    Nothing especially worrying about keto diets?

    ..Besides decreased CO2 and oxaloacetate production. Fat and glucose are not equal in their use as energy substrate; this goes far beyond what supplementing micronutrients can resolve. Low carb diets lower insulin, glucose, and increase glucagon, just like starvation. Research the effects of carb restriction on deidination of T4 to T3. Research the effects on cortisol production.

    Avoiding carbs makes no sense.
     
  8. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    Haidut, didn't you post a study a while back saying that keto diets, even in a calorie surplus, results in muscle loss?

    I would believe it.

    I think my health started to go downhill when I was doing powerlifting while on keto. Didn't help a lot of my fats were PUFA from nut butters.
     
  9. jb116

    jb116 Member

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    As you can see, I'm trying to reconcile what I'm observing with something that is overarching truthful. To know and understand that, I can of course resort to what happens "on paper." The points you guys bring up for example, yes, they are technically right. My reconciliation is with the present time, where I see good progress with these individuals, with what is typically true in the long run. It's almost as if I am asking the ultimate clinician question I suppose. There's the biochemistry and physiology of it all and then there is real-world outcomes, and that's the part I am trying to ascertain, hence why I think I am asking an impossible question. And in finally settling this question, I think it would quench this curiosity I am having in thinking is it possible it goes beyond what's on paper. Perhaps even just for some individuals.

    By the way, I don't promote keto nor do I have any desire to try it. I've had fine success (not just for myself) with higher carb, fairly good amounts of protein and lowish fat. Something like 50, 30, 20.
     
  10. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Yes, anything that results in chronically elevated cortisol would be expected to cause this. And a low carb diet is one way to do it.
     
  11. Rafael Lao Wai

    Rafael Lao Wai Member

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    I think Ray would say that it wasn't the hyperglycemia that is damaging the blood vessels, but the lowered intracellular glucose. That means that for someone fat adapted, this shouldn't be a problem, but just because low carb isn't damaging in this regard, I still think a high carb diet is still best.
     
  12. Rafael Lao Wai

    Rafael Lao Wai Member

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    Interesting. I'm happy starch works for you! I personally have been doing a high sugar low fat diet for almost 2 years now. I do eat starch but just enough to get about 20 grams of carbs from it. That keeps my starch hunger satiated( I tried no starch, but that didn't work). I used to think that it was starch from rice that was helping me keep my muscle tissue, but it turned out in my case to be just the calories from it that were having that effect. I was getting about 70 grams of carbs from rice, so I decided to replace that with the same amount of carbs from apple juice. It turned out to be better, since not only is it easier to digest, but also starch seems to kinda dry out inside my bowels, making me constipated. I can kinda feel things moving not so smoothly inside my gut. Also, rice would make me sleepy and also would give me water retention on my face( I couldn't even see my jawline after a day or two of eating rice). Sucrose and fructose seem to lean me out. So different strokes for diferente folks, I guess.
     
  13. Rafael Lao Wai

    Rafael Lao Wai Member

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    I feel the same. The times I restricted carbs in the past( especially sucrose) were absolute hell. I would feel so acidic and bad. Probably lots of lactate and cortisol. At that time, I pretty much didn't have any muscle on my arms, which goes to show the cells WILL get energy, even if it means sacrificing muscle and other organs.
     
  14. TripleOG

    TripleOG Member

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    A great bulk of posters are here after experience worse health from extensive periods with low carb, keto, exhaustive training, and/or various forms of fasting.

    What defines "thriving?" You're riding high on stress hormones in the beginning. Feels great, until it doesn't. Those same people you observe will likely fall into a food coma and test pre-diabetic after a carb meal. You've been here long enough to know running away from carbs isn't the answer.
     
  15. schultz

    schultz Member

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    I asked Ray about this a few months ago. His answer was interesting.

    Ray Peat Email Advice Depository
     
  16. Cirion

    Cirion Member

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    So in light of RP's answer, is he saying that bringing blood sugar up high can be therapeutic? As long as it's done in a context that also tries to mitigate PUFA's, tryptophan, etc...?
     
  17. jb116

    jb116 Member

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    Of course. Again I'm not wondering the "slight of hand" effects that these fad diets and running on stress hormones have, I'm just newly curious about these individuals, in which a few have been going longer than a year, and the fact they are doing well, that's all. I suppose I have to wait longer to see how it pans out for them.
     
  18. LuMonty

    LuMonty Member

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    I'd have to find the particular texts, but yes, though I'll detail the case that most relates to me. He mentions low blood sugar making animals more susceptible to allergens, or even allergic to substances they weren't before. I tried it, and I was able to shop in produce with only a sneeze. I'm allergic to strawberries, and for whatever reason the two stores in town always have them even if they're poor quality. Retroactively, I also know it works because any other time I would encounter strawberries was during physical work, and the radius of effect would be increased greatly, up to about 30 feet.

    It also helped me withstand my Italian herb allergies: instead of spending 12+ hours in bed feeling like a corpse, I only needed to have some Coca-Cola and fruit before bed, and then a slightly bigger breakfast.

    If memory serves, Ray also said T3 and in some cases vitamin D can act as surrogates as well. I've used both successfully, but find the amounts required to be impractical.
     
  19. DuggaDugga

    DuggaDugga Member

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    I had a similar situation. Developed allergies in my teens, which stayed with me until my late 20s - not debilitating, but annoying. Starting consuming a ton of sugar, avoiding irritants and PUFA - general Peating. Allergies have been absent ever since.
     
  20. Rafael Lao Wai

    Rafael Lao Wai Member

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    Thanks! So he thinks that hyperglycemia isn't to blame when it comes to 'in vivo' conditions. The glucose is increased to compensate for a deficiency of energy and this deficiency of energy is caused by stress hormones, not glucose. Consuming more carbs will lower FFAs in the blood, so my guess would be that doing that is indeed therapeutic, as @Cirion has suggested.
     
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