Low Bile Flow / Low Stomach Acid

Cirion

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
3,731
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
Well my personal experience with mixing that much fat and sugar just made me gain 90 lbs, certainly didn't get me to 10% body fat. 200g fat with that much sugar sounds like a randle cycle disaster much like what happened to me. I probably will chalk it to your age, let me know how it works in another 10 years. I could do just about any dietary manipulation and not get fat until I got to age 30.
 

Inaut

Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
3,620
just me speculating but I think it is all hinged on liver/gallbladder function. probably talking ooma though
 

CLASH

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
1,219
@Cirion
Based on what I have read from your posts I dont think you have ever tried anything similar to this approach, i could be mistaken. Its not the macro its the food in my experience. From what I understand you gained weight using ice cream, granulated sugar and extremely low, super high carb diets with 5000+ kcal. Also, I have seen you jump the dietary bandwagon many times on the forum. I dont think the randle cycle is as important as the current fad on the forum makes it out to be. From what I understand in some of our discussions you were lean and didnt have many of the current issues you have now, when you were on keto. I would bet you that if you reimplemented keto and just added fruit juice/ fruit to your diet and lowered some of the fat intake you’d drop your weight pretty rapidly. I dont think low fat, or low carb is a succesful long term strategy and I dont think the randle cycle is as important as everyones making it out to be.
 

Cirion

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
3,731
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
@Cirion
Based on what I have read from your posts I dont think you have ever tried anything similar to this approach, i could be mistaken. Its not the macro its the food in my experience. From what I understand you gained weight using ice cream, granulated sugar and extremely low, super high carb diets with 5000+ kcal. Also, I have seen you jump the dietary bandwagon many times on the forum. I dont think the randle cycle is as important as the current fad on the forum makes it out to be. From what I understand in some of our discussions you were lean and didnt have many of the current issues you have now, when you were on keto. I would bet you that if you reimplemented keto and just added fruit juice/ fruit to your diet and lowered some of the fat intake you’d drop your weight pretty rapidly. I dont think low fat, or low carb is a succesful long term strategy and I dont think the randle cycle is as important as everyones making it out to be.

I was healthiest on the two following diets, and more healthy on #2 than #1. I felt okay on #1, but #2 was superior - More physical energy and strength, more confidence than #1 (I was actually still a virgin until I was on #2 diet, my libido and confidence with the opposite gender went through the ROOF.. Not only that, my gains in the gym were so insane, my personal trainer asked me what steroids I was on (True story lol))

1.) Keto
2.) Zero fat ultra high carb

I've never been healthy on a mixed diet. My experiences have led me to believe that mixing fats and sugars is the problem since I've been healthy on both high fat low/zero carb and high carb low/zero fat. So keto also avoids the problems of randle cycle, just like a zero fat diet does. I actually was 10% body fat on #2 for a while, at an older age than you (30). That's why I've gravitated back to it now. Why did I stray away from it you may ask? Good question, I ask myself the same question a lot. A long story really. Long story short, pressure from the ex-gf to eat junk (fatty) foods and other things led to my health decline such as a stressful relationship overall, dating someone on night shift (My perfect sleep went down the toilet). The cognitive decline I experienced from an unhealthy body led me to be easily swayed by popular opinion, so against my better judgment I adopted a "Ray Peat Diet" of milk, OJ, ice cream, cheese, which caused the 90 lb weight gain but I finally put a stop to that.

It's true I have a history of 5000 cal because mixing fats and sugars makes me have endless appetite more so than any other combo. I have rarely used granulated sugar though. I did have some issues on keto, which were lots of aches and pains (probably due to PUFA). I had none of this on #2 (Zero fat ultra high carb). You did get me at ice cream though, I do count most of the weight gain because of ice cream - truly the devil's food lol. You may very well be right then, that Dairy fat is the ultimate evil - cheese, ice cream, whole milk. I do agree that beef fat, cocoa butter, etc is no doubt better but I'm not likely to give higher fat intakes a try again except perhaps as last resort.

I also agree that the food choices tend to matter more than the macros in some respects. For example - I've recently come to appreciate that tryptophan is a major, major problem for me. Unfortunately, due to how overweight I am now, my diet has to be 1000% picture perfect now if I hope to lose weight and regain my health. I have a major uphill battle ahead of me. The one bright side is it forces me to learn how to truly optimize the diet.
 
Last edited:

Cirion

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
3,731
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
For context I have been up to 20% bodyfat on a low fat/ very low fat, milk and oj based diet if you are going to make the age argument here in relation to weight and metabolism. I have been playing with my diet methodically for a decade.

I would venture a guess it's the milk and OJ that did you in. I've come to realize neither milk nor OJ is doing me any favors on my latest low-fat experiment. Neither of these foods existed in my diet way back the first time I successfully did a low-fat diet either.
 

LiveWire

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2019
Messages
176
@LiveWire
24 years old

For context I have been up to 20% bodyfat on a low fat/ very low fat, milk and oj based diet if you are going to make the age argument here in relation to weight and metabolism. I have been playing with my diet methodically for a decade.

Clash I would argue that at 24, you have no business being anything other than lean. Not thanks to half a kilo of sugar and fat each, but in spite of them.

That said I duly note your 20% BF claim.

So what does your diet look like? If you’ve writen it elsewhere could you paste a link pls?
 

CLASH

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
1,219
@LiveWire

A days worth of food:
-8 oz of 93/7 grass fed ground meat
-10 oz of wild pink shrimp
-Liver/ kidney/ oysters weekly, in addition to the above
-140g of beef tallow
-40g of coconut oil
-6-8oz of carrots
-as much blueberries, dragon fruit, cherries, grapes, pineapple, cooked banana as I want/ can afford/ depending on the season. Usually 6oz of additional fruit on average per day.
-32oz of grape juice
-32oz of pineapple juice


I split this all into 4 meals seperated by about 3-4 hours in between each meal. I dont snack in between. I eat the same thing everyday without much change. Sometimes ill eat oxtail or different cuts of steak or lamb instead of ground meat, but thats if I’m eating with my family. It too expensive for me to do that myself. I’ll also substitue mussels or cod for the shrimp sometimes, but I like shrimp the best because its the cheapest in bulk, tastiest, easiest to cook timewise and lowest in mercury and PUFA.

To put this all in context I have been living on a night shift schedule 24/7 for longer than 1 year, I have not once switched back to a day time schedule even on days off and on vacations. Basically I havent spent more than 15 min in the sun for more than a year. I also work 13 hour shifts 3 days a week at a hospital so my stress isnt neccesarily that low. Eating this way I have actually lost weight, about 15lbs the first three weeks. So now i’m 185lbs at 6’2”. On dairy or a heavy plantain based diet i was 220lbs and i was only 20 years old (it was not all muscle). I was feeling much worse and much heavier eating starches, dairy and low fat. I was bloated, fatter, anxious, had hyperhidrosis, blood sugar swings, had to eat sugar almost every hour, libido was non existent, hair was falling out, strength was lower, sleep was poor with waking up to pee 2x per night and my muscles were always excessively tight on low fat. I tried using coconut oil to increase fat at first but it only helped a little. I tried butter but the hormonal effect built up over time and i started getting symptoms so i stopped. Then i used beef tallow and the magic happened. Long chain saturated and monounsaturated fatty acids are definetly needed. I have witnessed 4 other people add more beef tallow to thier diet and drop starch for sugar from fruit and get the same effects i did. Butter and coconut oil didnt cut it for them either. Butter reliably gives people acne, hairloss etc. and coconut oil can irritate the intestine in large quantities and it tends to burn like sugar: quickly. Long chain fats, without the hormones of butter, are the log in the furnace. They are the foundation of human energy production, for which carbs can be thrown on top as accelerants, atleast in my experience. They seem to spare sugars for other more important functions like glucoronidation of toxins such as PUFA by the liver. They induce bile release and function as sterilizing agents in the small intestine. They protect against endotoxin. They provide energy for the muscular system. They increase and enhance your steroid hormones. They protect the liver. They keep the blood sugar stable and thus the stress hormones low. They directly lower adrenaline as one of adrenalines functions is to release fatty acids. I think they are the most underrated food component discussed on the forum. Almost every large mammal has the majority of its calories coming in as fatty acids wether its whales, cows, elephants, large carnivores like wolves, gorillas, chimps etc. Why would humans be any different?

@Cirion
I’ll wager you 1 bottle of whatever idealabs supplement you want that a template similar to the one I wrote above can get you to lose a significant amount of weight in 1 month (obviously with some adjustments for your specific context). If you actually stick to the plan (we can define this together, but theres obviously a trust aspect on your end) for the most part and lose the weight then I dont have to buy you the supplement. If you stick to the plan and dont lose a significant amount of weight (we can define this as well) i’ll venmo or send you bitcoin to cover the cost of one idealabs supplement. As for the exact amount of weight you have to lose we can discuss it, I’m not sure I could get you to lose all 90lbs of excess weight in 1 month but I do think I can get you to drop a signifcant portion of that, maybe 20-30lbs, maybe more? If you want to drop out at any time, theres no risk at all, we can leave it alone. If you want to do this we can create a new thread and log it all out publicly for everyone to see on the forum. I’ll work with you based on my experience throughout the entire process publicly on the thread. Let me know.
 

LiveWire

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2019
Messages
176
Come one @CLASH

Man I ammalmost certain that eating 200 grams of pure fat and 2 liters of the sweetest fruit juice, on top of a shitload of actual meat and fruit, would totally obliterate 99% of people above 35 who would even attempt it.

I do admire your conviction. And it almost makes me want to try it.

How do you even physically consume all that fat?

No eggs?

How much protein do you average a day?

No whey?

You eat the fat and the fruit juice together disregarding the all mighty Randle cycle?

High fat, high sugar diet, what the hell do you even call this? Other than SAD?
 

CLASH

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
1,219
@LiveWire
Try it then, for 1-2 weeks. I’m pretty sure its physiologically impossibly to synthesize a significant amount of bodyfat in that time period, if thats your worry. Worse that could happen would be some water weight gain and maybe GI upset at first.

40g of beef fat/ 10g of coconut oil per meal.

If I could find decent eggs I’d eat them but the eggs by me are all fed soy for the most part. Even the pastured eggs.

I call it “The Human diet”... lol
 

LiveWire

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2019
Messages
176
Thanks @CLASH

I’m all for crazy stuff so I might just try it.

I’m all about dairy. 1% milk and a shitload of no fat cheeses like cottage and quark. Plus OJ, fruit, and whey and collagen. Would just adding beef tallow to this be the way?

I’m not fat, I’m 6’7” and weigh 222 pounds. I have some muscle but hard time adding new. People think I’m very slim but since peating I’ve added gross stomach fat, not so much in the front, but on sides - disgusting love handles.

Why is diary such problem? Even low or no fat?

Do you eat gelatin with all that meat?

With the amount of fat you eat, PUFA must be through the roof - at least by peat standards.
 

CLASH

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
1,219
@LiveWire
It could work out, some people seem to handle dairy well, only one way to find out.

Most people seem to add abdominal fat on peat’s template.

My issue with dairy is the hormonal effect and the opiate effects. The fat portion of dairy is high in hormones including estrogens. The protein portion (casein) of dairy when hydrolyzed releases peptides that have an opiate like effect that can cause constipation and can effect dopamine negatively thus increasing prolactin and lowering androgens. When I drank milk, i tried whole fat, 2%, 1%, A2, raw cow, goat milk, raw goat milk, cheese, raw cheese, low fat cheese, yogurt, and kefir. I did the best on goat milk and goat milk kefir overall but still it made me fat, sluggish, low libido, hairloss, acne etc. Cow milk was a nightmare. Also, genetically I’m a lactase persister so I can digest lactose just fine. Theres also mentioning of folate receptor antibodies with dairy but I didnt even look into it because the other effects were enough for me to avoid it. At best maybe I’d add in some goat milk one more time for one meal or so to test it out, but not anytime soon. I also avoid butter for the most part,
Not becuase I think the fats are bad, on the contrary I enjoy the taste and like the fats (they never made gain weight, even when I was low carb and ate 8oz of butter a day at one point....) but because I notice effects from the hormones in the butter (like acne).


Nope no gelatin. I tried it and collagen peptides a few times but I dont react well to them or atleast i havent in the past. I think it may be a gut thing so I may try it again. The peptides of collagen can stimulate histamine release, so if you have some histamine issues then collagen peptides may be a problem. I had an overgrowth of specific bacteria in my colon that release histamine. I just recently cleared it/ am clearing it so I’ll introduce new food soon. Besides if you look at the amino acid profile of 93/7 ground beef, which i posted below, you’ll see its amino acid profile is one of the best overall, way better than milk. The shrimp is actually way worse than the beef.

I’m a little above 4g/2000kcal but my saturated:unsaturated ratio is greater than 10:1. The picture attached is based on 3600kcal/ day, and cronometer doesnt take into account the fact that the beef is grass fed. Besides you dont have to eat as much fat as me, I would suggest increasing slowly by like 20g increments every 3-5 days taking note of symptoms, thats what i did. Thing was I just kept feeling better and better the more i added. I did have some GI issues initially (diarrhea for 1-2 days, like taking an antibiotic) when I first added fat from low fat. And too much coconut oil made my colon spaz out a few times but after time i could tolerate coconut oil just fine. The beef tallow is easier on the GI tract overall tho.
 

Attachments

  • 52BB4EAB-8758-429F-92D9-BDFC0CC205B1.png
    52BB4EAB-8758-429F-92D9-BDFC0CC205B1.png
    35.9 KB · Views: 80
  • A70884A7-0BC2-42A7-9621-F4B6D93D6BFF.png
    A70884A7-0BC2-42A7-9621-F4B6D93D6BFF.png
    22 KB · Views: 70
  • 888208BA-5ABB-4B1C-8E0E-E1DB9B82CA97.png
    888208BA-5ABB-4B1C-8E0E-E1DB9B82CA97.png
    37.6 KB · Views: 71
  • B64B2610-9533-401F-BB4E-8E49D7A31F37.png
    B64B2610-9533-401F-BB4E-8E49D7A31F37.png
    39.8 KB · Views: 69
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
1,790
The standard american diet isn't high sugar or high in fat from tallow or cocoa butter or coconut oil. Instead, they ingest a high soybean oil, high dry starch diet. And the relatively small amounts of sugar that americans ingest is refined sucrose, whose lack of nutrients isn't made up for with mineral or vitamin supplements.
Dry starch, such as baked goods, are notorious for causing constipation, which itself can cause weight gain and soybean oil greatly increases diabetes risk.
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
1,790
It could be interesting if they made hydrogenated beef tallow. It would be a very hard fat at room temperature. I guess it would be similar to fully hydrogenated soybean oil: mostly stearic acid, but it would have much more palmitic acid.
 

CLASH

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
1,219
@Spartan300
Pretty much, I cook everything in the fat. So ill cook a 1lb package of beef in 120g of tallow and 40g of coconut oil. Ill cook my shrimp 80g of tallow with 20g of coconut oil with the 10 oz of shrimp.
 

Inaut

Member
Joined
Nov 29, 2017
Messages
3,620
If i read it correctly in a previous post, you buy very lean ground beef. Whats the point if you are cooking it in that much fat? Why not buy fattier ground beeef?
 

CLASH

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2017
Messages
1,219
@Inaut
Grass fed ground beef in a value pack at BJ’s is like 15$ for 3. The 85/15 is a different type of meat in my experience, much tougher, so I buy 93/7. Plus it works out nicely macro wise to hit my protein target based on the research with the 93/7. I’d have to eat more meat overall for the same amount of protein with the 85/15. Plus the fat cost is miniscule, as I buy the tallow in 5 gallon drums. If there isnt 93/7 i’ll use the 85/15 though.
 
Joined
Jun 16, 2017
Messages
1,790
@Inaut
Grass fed ground beef in a value pack at BJ’s is like 15$ for 3. The 85/15 is a different type of meat in my experience, much tougher, so I buy 93/7. Plus it works out nicely macro wise to hit my protein target based on the research with the 93/7. I’d have to eat more meat overall for the same amount of protein with the 85/15. Plus the fat cost is miniscule, as I buy the tallow in 5 gallon drums. If there isnt 93/7 i’ll use the 85/15 though.
Where do you buy your tallow?
 

Cirion

Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2017
Messages
3,731
Location
St. Louis, Missouri
@Spartan300
Pretty much, I cook everything in the fat. So ill cook a 1lb package of beef in 120g of tallow and 40g of coconut oil. Ill cook my shrimp 80g of tallow with 20g of coconut oil with the 10 oz of shrimp.

This isn't consuming 200g of tallow then. You will lose a good portion of fat you cook in, from what I've heard, generally you expect to lose half (or more) so in reality, you are probably consuming 100g a day of fat and not 200. That makes a big difference in the initial assumptions about your fat intakes because 200g is going to cause a much bigger randle cycle reaction than 100 gram. Unless you pour the whole thing into your plate and literally drink any thing that has spilled out from the meat. In which case, that's pretty hardcore lol and I stand corrected.
 

kyle

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2016
Messages
399
I wonder if some of the benficial parts of butter is more sensitive to heat, doesnt quite maintain a good flavor. Easy to see if your pan is too hot and ghee was usually preferred for cooking for any length of time.

Beef tallow was also a preferred frying medium once upon a time.

Is heat or fat solubles part of your reasoning here? Ive not seen much discussion on the topic.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom