Losing Weight Sensibly Vs. Eating Slight Surplus

[HLP]

Yes, very good post. I used Cronometer for about a week to give me an awakening to how much food I was actually consuming vs how much I need to satisfy my nutritional requirements. I'm on the same page with bread and rice. What I do find, is that even a small deficit in calories can cause "falling asleep" issues, so sometimes I need a nibble of something to get to sleep. Also I have T3 in tablet form and do believe a nibble several times a day is useful, even before bed. Reducing fat intake is very important for me to maintaining or losing weight slowly.

 

[Braveheart]

Yes, this thread has inspired me to track for a while, just for kicks. I even got out my trusty food scale.

you are one of the best writers on this forum.... you are either a pro or love books and reading....

 

[denise]

FWIW, eating bread can be a hunger trigger for me, as can eggs.

I'm so glad you said this (about the eggs)! This happens to me, but I didn't recognize it until just now because I didn't think it made sense. But I realize now that especially if I don't have much else (e.g., just 2 eggs, OJ, coffee), I'm hungry within 90 minutes tops. How strange.

 

[mjrm]

I'm so glad you said this (about the eggs)! This happens to me, but I didn't recognize it until just now because I didn't think it made sense. But I realize now that especially if I don't have much else (e.g., just 2 eggs, OJ, coffee), I'm hungry within 90 minutes tops. How strange.

Actually, I was thinking the same. Once I cut out having eggs every morning, I felt a lot more incontrol of my hunger. Although, I do find myself having intense salt cravings from time to time...that might lead me to a small bag of salt and vinegar chips lol.

 

[denise]

I ran only your bread milk, and OJ through Cronometer, and you're probably getting 1500-1600 calories just from that.

Are you sure about that? It seemed really high to me, so I did the same thing (using 8 oz OJ, 24 oz 2% milk, 2 slices sourdough) and got 800 calories. ??

 

[mjrm]

you are one of the best writers on this forum.... you are either a pro or love books and reading....

agree. that was a super compelling and fun post to read. @whodathunkit

 

[whodathunkit]

Are you sure about that? It seemed really high to me, so I did the same thing (using 8 oz OJ, 24 oz 2% milk, 2 slices sourdough) and got 800 calories. ??

Holy mackerel! I was looking in the wrong place for the total! I was looking at total calories burned based on some default metabolic rate. Duh. Thanks for catching.

After re-entering into Cronometer, what I got using typical "free eating portions" (instead of strict 8oz portions because no free eater actually sticks to that ) is 1100 calories.

So, significantly less than my original estimate.

However, the point still stands, because the larger issue is that the OJ, milk, and bread is still less than half the food she ate in a day. Even if she's only eating 2400-2500kcal, she's still got a calorie surplus if she's only burning 2100 or 2200. Or still a surplus if she's eating less but also burning less.

This is all speculation, of course, until scarlettsmum clarifies amounts she ate. Which can be difficult when trying to recall a free eating day. Only way to know for sure is to measure and track for a little while.

This is why this thread has inspired me to really give Cronometer a go for a few days. Cuz I realized while replying to scarlettsmum that I don't have a clue how much I actually eat. Those apps can show us up where we might be detrimentally shorting ourselves on energy...or when we're swimming in De Nile about how much we're really eating.

 

[scarlettsmum]

Are you sure about that? It seemed really high to me, so I did the same thing (using 8 oz OJ, 24 oz 2% milk, 2 slices sourdough) and got 800 calories. ??

Exactly my point! I had 8 oz of OJ and 5 oz of cocoa (European, so proper cocoa) and 1 slice of sourdough. As I said when I did cronometer my calculations were 2000 calories and not more. I don't like the inaccuracies, everything in the US is huge, even your sourdough bread slices probably. Who on earth would think of drinking 24 oz of milk in one sitting?! All these apps are totally unsuitable for Europeans who's portion sizes are for one person and not family sized. God knows how big a piece of chocolate is in the US? Again I'm talking standard European sized chocolate and one piece or 2 of that. And that's why I'm not happy with cronometer. I judge by hunger, following "don't go hungry for life" book, tracking my food, but not recording calories and certainly not letting an app guess for me.

I'm not huge, but I'm not happy with the weigh I carry now. I'm 147 lbs and 5'4" and I used to be 114 lbs before kids. I think that may have been too thin, but I wouldn't mind dropping 11 lbs or so.

 

[whodathunkit]

@mjrm and @bzmazu, thanks for the props! I needed to hear something good today. :)

Although I think my buddy @Such_Saturation would disagree with you and say that while brevity is not my friend, it should be. I'm kind of a gasbag. If we could get him to type more than three words at a time, that is. :p

 

[HLP]

You're in that "fun zone", the last ten pounds! How often do you weigh yourself? Other than once a month if that, I stay away from the scales and just use a visual mirror check daily. SS is consistent for sure and funny as hell.

 

[mjrm]

Holy mackerel! I was looking in the wrong place for the total! I was looking at total calories burned based on some default metabolic rate. Duh. Thanks for catching.

After re-entering into Cronometer, what I got using typical "free eating portions" (instead of strict 8oz portions because no free eater actually sticks to that ) is 1100 calories.

So, significantly less than my original estimate.

However, the point still stands, because the larger issue is that the OJ, milk, and bread is still less than half the food she ate in a day. Even if she's only eating 2400-2500kcal, she's still got a calorie surplus if she's only burning 2100 or 2200. Or still a surplus if she's eating less but also burning less.

This is all speculation, of course, until scarlettsmum clarifies amounts she ate. Which can be difficult when trying to recall a free eating day. Only way to know for sure is to measure and track for a little while.

This is why this thread has inspired me to really give Cronometer a go for a few days. Cuz I realized while replying to scarlettsmum that I don't have a clue how much I actually eat. Those apps can show us up where we might be detrimentally shorting ourselves on energy...or when we're swimming in De Nile about how much we're really eating.

what do you guys think about the way chronometer estimates BMR? worth believing them or not?

 

[scarlettsmum]

Not really. A potato is a potato and a calorie is a calorie (kilocalorie) regardless of whether you're cooking your potato in Europe or America.

Unless you weigh your food, which is definitely annoying to do all the time, there *is* some irritating subjectivity when it comes to trying to track. Can't get around that. However, tracking can be enlightening because it can broadly highlight whether or not you may be undereating or overeating without realizing it.

For example, I ran only your bread milk, and OJ through Cronometer, and you're probably getting 1500-1600 calories just from that. That's without any added fat you might use to cook, without the marmalade, without chocolate, without the cheddar, eggs, liver, rice, veggies, without the milk + sugar + chocolate for hot cocoa, etc.

Point being, you may be overeating quite a bit. Even 200 extra calories per day will cause a fairly significant weight creep. Given your food list above, I suspect you're eating around 3000 cals per day, which is actually quite a bit for most truly adult women (that is, not late teens or early-mid 20's) who are not athletes, even with healthy metabolism.

Not a criticism in this. Just something to think about. It's happened to me in the past, both undereating and overeating. :)

As far as what to do about it...that's a difficult conundrum if this amount and quality/tastiness of food is what it takes to keep you from eating your own fingers and your children. :p I’ve definitely been there, too.

FWIW, eating bread can be a hunger trigger for me, as can eggs. Rice with butter is also an eating trigger, but it satiates so I'm not hungry two hours later, and I don't seem to eat as much of it as I do bread, so I use it as a strategic intervention. It also doesn't seem to precipitate the same amount of weight gain (probably because I eat less) as long as I keep the rice white and don't regularly eat PUFA sources like grain, eggs, or chicken. Rice with butter is my go-to indulgence if I really need to stave off a jones.

I still love eggs, they're just not a staple any more. And bread is a no-go unless I'm dining out, as is chicken. Although once in a while I will pick up a bucket of southern fried and have at. Should fry my own but it's such a PITA.

Bottom line is that PUFA foods can be a big trigger to overeating, as can "estrogenic" fruits like grapes and raisins, dates, etc. I love grapes, BTW. I can go through a whole 2lb package in a day, though. So, a trigger. Maybe not for everyone, but for some of us.

Anyway, several years ago I noticed a BIG modification in my cravings and appetite by correcting what were probably some long-standing B vitamin deficiencies, especially choline, which is something the liver desperately needs and many of us with metabolism problems may be lacking. Also I worked a lot on my gut with pre- and probiotics, which helped a little with food cravings but a lot exercise tolerance. All this supplementation caused some short-term problems like anxiety and jitteriness, also some immune problems that caused me to get sick with the flu periodically for about a year, but since I got over that period of bad side effects things are much, much improved and the effects are lasting. Metabolism/energy is much better, and I haven’t wanted the same amount or types of foods since.

That's the main point of this long post...I beneficially modified my cravings and my appetite by correcting nutritional deficiencies, particularly ones that affected my liver. Further appetite modification is ongoing, and I think T3 is helping with that. As I said, these days I'm tilting more towards being an "eating to live" girl than the "living to eat" person I was for pretty much my whole life.

Other points:

Thanks to the appetite change I was able to fast and alter my diet so that I lost a bunch of weight. At the time I didn't eat low fat, but I cut most PUFA, and of course the fasting put me in big calorie deficit. I lost nearly 90lbs at my lowest point.

However, I also re-damaged my metabolism by over-doing the fasting, and also by under-eating on feed days. Also by under-carbing. I ate some starch but not a lot, and the guidelines I was following were basically anti-sugar and anti-fructose. I ultimately developed some gastroparesis problems (which manifested with symptoms of a gallbladder or pancreatitis attack) which all seem to relate back to the liver dysfunction I've been battling for so long. It was demoralizing and very painful when I'd get an attack.

I've since come to the conclusion that this gastroparesis problem was probably due to chronic, long-standing energy deficit that affected my liver's ability to store and produce what I need to run my metabolism efficiently. Basically, I gave my liver the nutrients it needed to run itself better, and then once it started running better I didn't give it the energy it needed to continue. I corrected the nutritional deficiencies but then by undereating kicked myself deeper into the root problem of lack of energy.

It may be that when the liver can’t get enough energy to function, we get hungry to compensate.

Since going more Peaty I've put back on some of the weight I lost initially, which was disheartening at first, but am maintaining a solid 60lb weight loss. Not where I want to be but I still look pretty good, judging by feedback I get. More encouraging is that I don't have gastroparesis/gallbladder problems any more, although I'm still using some supplements to address the long-standing liver issues. I do believe I'll reach a place where I no longer have to take these supps any more.

Best news about the weight gain is I think I needed to put that weight back on to stabilize at this much lower set point. It’s lower than it has been for over a decade. So now that I've re-established a healthier set point, I'm going to try moderate calorie deficit + strategic fasting again to get to my healthy ideal weight. It’s maybe a step-down process. But all calorie deficit in moderation and all the while supporting liver health with lower fat, a good amount of carbs & sugar, and the supplements. Slow and steady.

I honestly believe that calorie deficit is the best way to lose weight. But I also believe that correcting the things that are driving us to eat, like nutritional deficiencies and poor gut health, are a key to being able to endure calorie deficit. And also not taking the calorie deficit to extremes, which is what we usually do.

There’s also the additional wrinkle of looking at the psychological ways we use food. I’ve come to realize lately more than ever that the old cliché of emotional eating is very, very true. Intellectually I knew that, but for whatever reason I was never able to internalize that fact for myself until very recently. Any time I feel insecure about anything, whether it’s finances or relationships or the potential of World War III or whatever, I want to eat. Eating through anxiety makes me feel much more secure in the moment, even though eating enough to quell chronic anxiety undermines everything I want for myself and my life in the long-term. Becoming aware of the feeling before I reach for food out of habit, and deliberately crafting an alternative strategy to deal with anxiety, is helping a lot with that.

Maybe it’s the same for you?

I dunno. It’s complex. Just maundering because it seems we’re somewhat similar and I’ve been dealing with the complexity for so long. This is a good thread. :)

Thanks for sharing your journey, I too think that I have some liver issues. I didn't know grapes were estrogenic? I only knew about grapefruits. I thought RP recommends grapes?
I actually find eggs really satisfying and that's why I like eating them for lunch. I find them to be really quite heavy for my digestion and so it takes longer for my body to digest them, keeps me fuller for longer. I don't find bread triggers hunger for me since I make my own sourdough bread with white wheat and white rye flour and the bread is nicely stodgy and REALLY fills me up. HOWEVER a shop bought bread, even if it's claiming to be sourdough never satisfies me so I understand where you are coming from. I think you may be right about deficiencies and I am really good at incorporating liver, seafood, and other things in regularly. I think I am struggling with eating enough protein and it may be a big one for me that I need to work on some more in order to fix my liver.

 

[scarlettsmum]

You're in that "fun zone", the last ten pounds! How often do you weigh yourself? Other than once a month if that, I stay away from the scales and just use a visual mirror check daily. SS is consistent for sure and funny as hell.

I'm not sure if that question was aimed at me, but if so, I weigh myself about once a month and no more. Like you, I get the best idea on how I'm doing by how well or not so well my clothes fit me.

 

[whodathunkit]

ho on earth would think of drinking 24 oz of milk in one sitting?!

That was for the day, not for one meal.

Each portion in Cronometer also has a gram weight option which takes ALL the ambiguity out of it, for everyone all over the world. This includes sourdough bread and chocolate. If you're willing to go to the trouble of weighing, there doesn't have to be this great ambiguity you're talking about. You can know within an acceptable margin of error what your calorie intake is if you do gram weights on everything.

At any rate, to get a proper calorie count you have to break everything you eat down into its constituents. If you go looking for things like "proper cocoa" without specifying exactly what's in it, you're not going to get anywhere near an accurate calorie count.

Can you explain by what you mean by "proper cocoa"? Like, fresh milk, sugar, and powdered cocoa? In what amounts?

I would break that down by inputting into Cronometer:

8oz milk (or whatever amount)
3 teaspoons sugar (or whatever amount)
2 tablespoons powdered cocoa (or whatever amount)
3 tablespoons heavy cream (or whatever amount)

Do you whisk cocoa butter in that (yummy, BTW )? If so, what amount? Etc.

If you're not into weighing, that's cool. And if you're happy with the trend you're on and your free eating style, that's cool, too. But your original question was about surplus v. deficit, and until you get a handle on how much you eat, you'll never get to the heart of your original question. Just sayin' cuz you seem a little annoyed now that we're all parsing it down. No worries, I don't necessarily blame you. That's happened to me on forums, too. LOL

FWIW, based on your weight and height, I wouldn't worry about it. If you're concerned about shape then some Pilates and weight training will probably fix you right up without you having to alter your eating style at all.

 

[scarlettsmum]

Holy mackerel! I was looking in the wrong place for the total! I was looking at total calories burned based on some default metabolic rate. Duh. Thanks for catching.

After re-entering into Cronometer, what I got using typical "free eating portions" (instead of strict 8oz portions because no free eater actually sticks to that ) is 1100 calories.

So, significantly less than my original estimate.

However, the point still stands, because the larger issue is that the OJ, milk, and bread is still less than half the food she ate in a day. Even if she's only eating 2400-2500kcal, she's still got a calorie surplus if she's only burning 2100 or 2200. Or still a surplus if she's eating less but also burning less.

This is all speculation, of course, until scarlettsmum clarifies amounts she ate. Which can be difficult when trying to recall a free eating day. Only way to know for sure is to measure and track for a little while.

This is why this thread has inspired me to really give Cronometer a go for a few days. Cuz I realized while replying to scarlettsmum that I don't have a clue how much I actually eat. Those apps can show us up where we might be detrimentally shorting ourselves on energy...or when we're swimming in De Nile about how much we're really eating.

Oh and I forgot to add I don't eat emotionally but my problem is I can sometimes eat simply because something tastes good.
When stressed I can't eat a thing. So when there is a stress period in my life I lose weight very quickly although unhealthily.

 

[whodathunkit]

what do you guys think about the way chronometer estimates BMR? worth believing them or not?

Nope. :)

I'm actually a lot like @scarlettsmum in my approach to food. I want to be happy and satisfied.

And like both her and @HLP, I go mostly on how my clothes fit. Getting into a relationship with my scale or trying to hit a metric like BMR or BMI is like being on the Highway to Hell. I don't even pay much attention to commonly accepted Peaty metrics like pulse and body temp.

However, I also know realistically that I may have to tweak some things if I have a real goal to meet (I do). The reasonable estimates Cronometer can give are helpful when tweaking both nutritional intake and calories.

 

[whodathunkit]

Oh and I forgot to add I don't eat emotionally but my problem is I can sometimes eat simply because something tastes good.

LOL. My grandmother used to say "My stomach's full but my mouth's not done tasting yet!"

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of that phrase over the years. You can have it if you like it.

 

[scarlettsmum]

That was for the day, not for one meal.

Each portion in Cronometer also has a gram weight option which takes ALL the ambiguity out of it, for everyone all over the world. This includes sourdough bread and chocolate. If you're willing to go to the trouble of weighing, there doesn't have to be this great ambiguity you're talking about. You can know within an acceptable margin of error what your calorie intake is if you do gram weights on everything.

At any rate, to get a proper calorie count you have to break everything you eat down into its constituents. If you go looking for things like "proper cocoa" without specifying exactly what's in it, you're not going to get anywhere near an accurate calorie count.

Can you explain by what you mean by "proper cocoa"? Like, fresh milk, sugar, and powdered cocoa? In what amounts?

I would break that down by inputting into Cronometer:

8oz milk (or whatever amount)
3 teaspoons sugar (or whatever amount)
2 tablespoons powdered cocoa (or whatever amount)
3 tablespoons heavy cream (or whatever amount)

Do you whisk cocoa butter in that (yummy, BTW )? If so, what amount? Etc.

If you're not into weighing, that's cool. And if you're happy with the trend you're on and your free eating style, that's cool, too. But your original question was about surplus v. deficit, and until you get a handle on how much you eat, you'll never get to the heart of your original question. Just sayin' cuz you seem a little annoyed now that we're all parsing it down. No worries, I don't necessarily blame you. That's happened to me on forums, too. LOL

FWIW, based on your weight and height, I wouldn't worry about it. If you're concerned about shape then some Pilates and weight training will probably fix you right up without you having to alter your eating style at all.

I can't be bothered to measure everything, I think I'd give up very soon. By proper cocoa I meant not the artificial stuff, but 2 tsp sugar, 1 of powdered cocoa and low fat milk, no heavy cream or butter. I can't imagine how cocoa butter in hot cocoa would taste nice? Never tried...interesting, but I'd rather not try in case I like it and make a habit out of it.:)
Yes, I got a bit flustered with everyone pushing cronometer on me! Lol, have you noticed?
And yes, I'm considering Pilates because my back needs it really badly.
Because my weight isn't too terrible I don't want to take any drastic actions but feel that careful monitoring is needed to prevent further weight gain and to hopefully lose a few pounds. I can't lose too much otherwise I'd have to replace my whole wardrobe again!

 

[scarlettsmum]

LOL. My grandmother used to say "My stomach's full but my mouth's not done tasting yet!"

I've gotten a lot of mileage out of that phrase over the years. You can have it if you like it.

yes, that describes me!

 

[denise]

And yes, I'm considering Pilates because my back needs it really badly.

Two other things you might want to look into if you've got a bad back:
Foundation Training – Check out the Free Resources link to see some YouTube videos. It's an exercise just for the back. It's quick to do, and feels really good, but man, is it tough.
T-Tapp - Similar to Pilates but more effective and efficient, I think. I've been doing it for a long time (well, intermittently).