Looking For Help

[marmolx]

Hi, I've been lurking on the forums and trying to implement various Ray Peat methodologies with a specific increase on increasing androgens. I'm looking for more directed help on getting T up to the 1000s range, if that's possible and DHT to whatever genetic potential I can take that to.

Some background as well: I took accutane when I was 16 - 17 for about a year to clear up some cystic acne. I've only since found out how damaging this drug is. I think related to this, I had my gallbladder taken out when I was 19.

Since this time, I've done the journey I think a significant number of us have: LeanGains, Primal, etc.

I've got two sets of incomplete results, which I know is a limiting factor in help and I apologise for that.

Symptomatically, I just don't feel virile. Not sure how else to describe it. It's a vague lacking feeling, like I'm not as potent as I should be or I'm underdeveloped or something. I don't get morning wood, haven't since I was like 16. My body fat has always been really soft, like baby fat. I look very young for my age.

Reference ranges in brackets, but I'm not sure how helpful those are.

11/08/16:
Testosterone: 14.8 n/mol (8.0 - 30)
FSH: 3 IU/L (1-8)
LH: 3 IU/L (2-8)
Prolactin: 181 mIU/L (45-375)
Progesterone: 2.8 nmol/L (<4.1)
DHEA: 7.0 umol/L (4.8-13.9)
TSH: 3.56 mIU/L (0.5 - 5.0)



08/10/13:
Testosterone: 14.9 n/mol (8.0 - 30)
SHBG: 34 n/mol (17-66)
FSH: 3 IU/L (1-8)
LH: 2 IU/L (2-8)
Prolactin: 10.9 ug/L (<20)
TSH: 3.07 mIU/L (0.5 - 5.0)
Free T4: 8.1 pmol/L (9.0 - 25)
Free T3: 5.5 pmol/L (3.5 - 6.5)

In terms of lifestyle, I work as a house painter five days a week. Typical 8 hours a day. The work is semi-intense physically, but obviously not brickie's labourer or anything.

I try and either train boxing, bjj or muay thai (one hour session) a couple times per week as well as bouldering semi-often. I probably only get to the gym three or four times per week. During the 2013 tests, I was weight training and walking only.

In terms of diet, I am looking to cut body fat. I am currently eating around 2000kcal per day in an effort to drop to around 8% body fat. I am currently sitting around 12%, I think. I've been doing this cut with occasional diet breaks and beers, etc, every so often, for around 8 weeks now.

I had a brief exchange with haidut via email and he was extremely helpful and generous with his time. He recommended that I look to elevated metabolism to achieve this goal, rather than reduce calories.

I am also looking to address the underlying issue that's causing the low T, not exclusively supplement it up with exogenous androgens.

A typical daily diet at the moment looks like this (I had implemented looser Ray Peat principles before test):

7:00am - wake and black coffee with one teaspoon of sugar
Work, maybe more coffees, no sugar

Lunch:

Cheddar cheese 65g (rennet)
Spinach 150g
Onion 100g
Jalapeños for flavour

Casein 30 - 60g
4 tablespoons gelatine
500ml grass fed 2% milk

Coke 285ml somewhere in here
Coffee with one teaspoon of sugar somewhere to stave off hunger

Dinner
Grass fed ground beef 250g
Gelatin 2 tablespoons
Potato 500g
Coconut oil 2 tablespoons

I usually only have about 2 - 3 teaspoons on sugar in coffee over the day.

I'm also doing 8 drops of estroban a day, half ingested/ half topical.

Looking at this now, I can see LeanGains habits die hard. But in terms of the 3 year gap between so much dietary style change, there doesn't seem to be that much effect one way or the other.

Aside from house painting, I'm also a performer so I really can't afford fat gain in a cut throat, image-oriented world.

I hope I've provided enough detail and thank you guys in advance for any help you can offer.

 

[Queequeg]

Here is a very inspiring story that I think would help.
Becoming A Man With Peat And Haidut

 

[raypeatclips]

I wouldn't feel good having a black coffee straight after waking up, need much more food before starting to drink coffee.

Dinner seems like a lot of protein at once.

Having a coffee to stave off hunger probably worse for you in the long run.

 

[Constatine]

I've been pursuing the same goal as you since I was 13 (i'm 21 now) so I've been around the block in this regard. The easiest and most impactful thing for androgen production is probably light exposure. If you live a life in the sun you will have high androgens. Also have you checked out this thread: Sexuality And Libido Through A Peat Prism . Haidut managed to get his testosterone levels up to beyond 1500. He would be the man to ask if you have androgens in mind.

 

[EIRE24]

Hi, I've been lurking on the forums and trying to implement various Ray Peat methodologies with a specific increase on increasing androgens. I'm looking for more directed help on getting T up to the 1000s range, if that's possible and DHT to whatever genetic potential I can take that to.

Some background as well: I took accutane when I was 16 - 17 for about a year to clear up some cystic acne. I've only since found out how damaging this drug is. I think related to this, I had my gallbladder taken out when I was 19.

Since this time, I've done the journey I think a significant number of us have: LeanGains, Primal, etc.

I've got two sets of incomplete results, which I know is a limiting factor in help and I apologise for that.

Symptomatically, I just don't feel virile. Not sure how else to describe it. It's a vague lacking feeling, like I'm not as potent as I should be or I'm underdeveloped or something. I don't get morning wood, haven't since I was like 16. My body fat has always been really soft, like baby fat. I look very young for my age.

Reference ranges in brackets, but I'm not sure how helpful those are.

11/08/16:
Testosterone: 14.8 n/mol (8.0 - 30)
FSH: 3 IU/L (1-8)
LH: 3 IU/L (2-8)
Prolactin: 181 mIU/L (45-375)
Progesterone: 2.8 nmol/L (<4.1)
DHEA: 7.0 umol/L (4.8-13.9)
TSH: 3.56 mIU/L (0.5 - 5.0)



08/10/13:
Testosterone: 14.9 n/mol (8.0 - 30)
SHBG: 34 n/mol (17-66)
FSH: 3 IU/L (1-8)
LH: 2 IU/L (2-8)
Prolactin: 10.9 ug/L (<20)
TSH: 3.07 mIU/L (0.5 - 5.0)
Free T4: 8.1 pmol/L (9.0 - 25)
Free T3: 5.5 pmol/L (3.5 - 6.5)

In terms of lifestyle, I work as a house painter five days a week. Typical 8 hours a day. The work is semi-intense physically, but obviously not brickie's labourer or anything.

I try and either train boxing, bjj or muay thai (one hour session) a couple times per week as well as bouldering semi-often. I probably only get to the gym three or four times per week. During the 2013 tests, I was weight training and walking only.

In terms of diet, I am looking to cut body fat. I am currently eating around 2000kcal per day in an effort to drop to around 8% body fat. I am currently sitting around 12%, I think. I've been doing this cut with occasional diet breaks and beers, etc, every so often, for around 8 weeks now.

I had a brief exchange with haidut via email and he was extremely helpful and generous with his time. He recommended that I look to elevated metabolism to achieve this goal, rather than reduce calories.

I am also looking to address the underlying issue that's causing the low T, not exclusively supplement it up with exogenous androgens.

A typical daily diet at the moment looks like this (I had implemented looser Ray Peat principles before test):

7:00am - wake and black coffee with one teaspoon of sugar
Work, maybe more coffees, no sugar

Lunch:

Cheddar cheese 65g (rennet)
Spinach 150g
Onion 100g
Jalapeños for flavour

Casein 30 - 60g
4 tablespoons gelatine
500ml grass fed 2% milk

Coke 285ml somewhere in here
Coffee with one teaspoon of sugar somewhere to stave off hunger

Dinner
Grass fed ground beef 250g
Gelatin 2 tablespoons
Potato 500g
Coconut oil 2 tablespoons

I usually only have about 2 - 3 teaspoons on sugar in coffee over the day.

I'm also doing 8 drops of estroban a day, half ingested/ half topical.

Looking at this now, I can see LeanGains habits die hard. But in terms of the 3 year gap between so much dietary style change, there doesn't seem to be that much effect one way or the other.

Aside from house painting, I'm also a performer so I really can't afford fat gain in a cut throat, image-oriented world.

I hope I've provided enough detail and thank you guys in advance for any help you can offer.

Did the accutane get rid of the acne and has it ever come back since?

 

[marmolx]

Here is a very inspiring story that I think would help.
Becoming A Man With Peat And Haidut

Thanks, Queequeg. It looks like the bulk of his diet is eggs, seafood, some cheese and sugary drinks?

I wouldn't feel good having a black coffee straight after waking up, need much more food before starting to drink coffee.

Dinner seems like a lot of protein at once.

Having a coffee to stave off hunger probably worse for you in the long run.

I haven't noticed it having a negative effect, but I've been drinking black coffee in the morning for ages. I should break the protein up over the day?

I've been pursuing the same goal as you since I was 13 (i'm 21 now) so I've been around the block in this regard. The easiest and most impactful thing for androgen production is probably light exposure. If you live a life in the sun you will have high androgens. Also have you checked out this thread: Sexuality And Libido Through A Peat Prism . Haidut managed to get his testosterone levels up to beyond 1500. He would be the man to ask if you have androgens in mind.

Thanks, man. It sounds like you're in the same boat as me. Have you had any success? I have been trying to get in the sun as much as possible. I tend to work outside as much as inside and we've just come out of winter. I saw that thread. I have been less aggressively supplementing with Vit E. Haidut mentions in that thread that his method was definitely not long term and I'm looking to get the levels up and keep them up without being on a regimen like a hospital patient, if you know what I mean?

Did the accutane get rid of the acne and has it ever come back since?

Yep, the accutane worked amazingly and my skin has been clear ever since. I had quite bad cystic acne - according to the forums, this is caused by high oestrogen rather than androgens? - I should confirm that I'm only correlating accutane with my gallbladder becoming diseased enough to be removed. It could be that I had some pre-existing condition that needed attention. If I remember correctly, I wasn't eating very well as a teen. I'm not sure badly enough to cause a catastrophic failure like oestrogen levels high enough to cause the cystic acne like I had.

 

[Constatine]

Thanks, Queequeg. It looks like the bulk of his diet is eggs, seafood, some cheese and sugary drinks?



I haven't noticed it having a negative effect, but I've been drinking black coffee in the morning for ages. I should break the protein up over the day?



Thanks, man. It sounds like you're in the same boat as me. Have you had any success? I have been trying to get in the sun as much as possible. I tend to work outside as much as inside and we've just come out of winter. I saw that thread. I have been less aggressively supplementing with Vit E. Haidut mentions in that thread that his method was definitely not long term and I'm looking to get the levels up and keep them up without being on a regimen like a hospital patient, if you know what I mean?



Yep, the accutane worked amazingly and my skin has been clear ever since. I had quite bad cystic acne - according to the forums, this is caused by high oestrogen rather than androgens? - I should confirm that I'm only correlating accutane with my gallbladder becoming diseased enough to be removed. It could be that I had some pre-existing condition that needed attention. If I remember correctly, I wasn't eating very well as a teen. I'm not sure badly enough to cause a catastrophic failure like oestrogen levels high enough to cause the cystic acne like I had.

I totally understand the hospital patient thing. I have had a lot of success but I also have quite the regimen. Have you tried Nofap? It seems to dramatically increase tissue androgens for whatever reason (partly just due to energy conservation). I always hate recommending this just because it seems like bro science but it does work. Abstinence is shown to increase brain androgen receptors, reduce prolactin, re-sensitize dopamine receptors (this alone will increase androgens), and there is a trend that abstinent men have higher testosterone. I suspect that is dramatically increases tissue androgens as well.

 

[Atman]

I think you need way more carbohydrates, especially in the morning and at lunch.
Aren't you hungry after waking up?

 

[marmolx]

I totally understand the hospital patient thing. I have had a lot of success but I also have quite the regimen. Have you tried Nofap? It seems to dramatically increase tissue androgens for whatever reason (partly just due to energy conservation). I always hate recommending this just because it seems like bro science but it does work. Abstinence is shown to increase brain androgen receptors, reduce prolactin, re-sensitize dopamine receptors (this alone will increase androgens), and there is a trend that abstinent men have higher testosterone. I suspect that is dramatically increases tissue androgens as well.

I'll give it a shot. Ignore the pun. Is this a general abstinence from orgasm or is sex fine? There seems to be a lot of conflicting statements about it raising testosterone and lowering it. Is there any research that shows increased tissue androgen? I'll preface by saying I'm not trying to be rude, but how measurable is increased tissue androgen? It sometimes seems to be a statement that requires faith. I have noticed it said in the Becoming a Man with Peat and Haidut and there are definitely pieces of evidence in that thread.

I think you need way more carbohydrates, especially in the morning and at lunch.
Aren't you hungry after waking up?

I'm shooting for something like 210-220g of carbohydrate a day. I don't get especially hungry, no. But I do notice I'm keen for lunch once it starts creeping up to time, but that has to be fairly normal, right?

 

[marmolx]

Just to update, holidays has seen the end of restricted eating. Been focusing a lot on @tyler method for increasing androgens. I've also received a shipment of pansterone and 11-keto DHT. Finding it to not be that strongly androgenic, maybe the opposite. My erections feel softer after starting supplementation. @haidut thoughts?

 

[tyler]

Just to update, holidays has seen the end of restricted eating. Been focusing a lot on @tyler method for increasing androgens. I've also received a shipment of pansterone and 11-keto DHT. Finding it to not be that strongly androgenic, maybe the opposite. My erections feel softer after starting supplementation. @haidut thoughts?

You could be stressing your body out, through under eating and supplementing. It could be that glycogen stores and endogenous cholesterol production is low- so using substances that ramp up thyroid and steroid production will create a stress response since there are no raw materials to fuel that process. I will always get shaky and feel unstable/stressed if I use supplements after a workout or heavy work day- so I make sure to take them after a big meal.
This could be the case for yourself, seeing you eat very low calorie and also work a laborious job. I think you would see a great decrease in symptoms if you were willing to eat more. Are you eating to satiation? For what it's worth, even on my days-off of work, I eat at least 2800 calories. Always over 400g of carbs. I understand weight loss is important to you, but you may be pulling the rope at both ends with those two goals.

 

[Art Vandelay]

I agree with tyler; trying to increase your T while on such low calories is very unlikely. Sure, you might be able to increase your T:E by dropping fat if you're morbidly obese...but if you're 12% already, dropping to 8% will give no extra benefit.

As fat gain is a concern for you, increase the calories via carbs but do it slowly and monitor the results.

 

[marmolx]

Thanks for the replies, both of you. I had no idea the body was able to produce its own cholesterol for steroid production. I've been trying to follow your type of diet, @tyler, focusing on getting calories and carbs up with sugary drinks. It seems to have already made me fatter. Was this your experience? Did you put on fat weight and then lean out as your androgens came up or was it a fairly linear bulk?

I'm sure that my lack of gallbladder and so lack of ability to digest fats properly has an impact on my hormone profile. On top of that, I often wonder if my body is now unable to provide itself with the required precursors for optimal hormones?

 

[tyler]

Thanks for the replies, both of you. I had no idea the body was able to produce its own cholesterol for steroid production. I've been trying to follow your type of diet, @tyler, focusing on getting calories and carbs up with sugary drinks. It seems to have already made me fatter. Was this your experience? Did you put on fat weight and then lean out as your androgens came up or was it a fairly linear bulk?

I'm sure that my lack of gallbladder and so lack of ability to digest fats properly has an impact on my hormone profile. On top of that, I often wonder if my body is now unable to provide itself with the required precursors for optimal hormones?

When I first came to Peat's ideas (late 2015) I did gain a bit of water/fat. I went from 136lbs to 160lbs within months. I also raised my calorie intake from 1800 per day to 3000+ in that time period, practically overnight. After about 5 months I dropped down to ~147 while eating the same amount. I was there for about almost a year, eating high starch, super low fat, moderate protein. Then I started to really focus on increasing androgens. I changed diet to a focus of sugar for carbs and high protein. During the same time, I dropped endurance exercise and began weight lifting. Since then my weight gain has been fairly linear. But during my original transition from low carb to high carb, I definitely put on a lot of weight. Whether this was water weight or fat, I'm not sure. I could see it most noticeably in my face. But it came off without me changing anything.

Yes- endogenous cholesterol is a result of the metabolism of fructose in the liver. Hence why sugars are important for steroid production. (and also a healthy liver- get your caffeine!!) This is from Peat's article Coconut Oil.

"I encourage people to eat sweet fruits, rather than starches, if they want to increase their production of cholesterol, since fructose has that effect."

Have you tried eating fruits? My reason for consuming the sugary drinks was because I craved them and I also had trouble finding fruits that digested well. Since that time, winter has arrived and I'm wanting less liquids. I've discovered a source of medjool dates that digest great- they have been my staple for the past month or so.

I think sugar is what's important- the source is less so. If you don't feel good on liquids, it might be good to try some other options. At this moment in time, I am really digging maple syrup (on skyr and ricotta cheese), medjool dates, and super ripe oranges.

Eating cholesterol rich foods will also be of great benefit, especially if your bodies production is low.