Looking for help with PFS

[cgh4444]

Was under the impression that pure l-dopa is pretty neurotoxic. Of course this was a long time ago when I was scraping around online looking for any sort of relief to my problems, and actually considered taking it. so things may have changed. Just throwing it out there.

 

[ChemHead]

Thanks for the detailed response, it all sounds pretty amazing, a few of those points I've managed to experience myself when trying things to help my recovery, oddly the best results I got was when I fasted for a few days and then spent the next few days only consuming water and coconut oil.

I'm in Australia so it would be very hard to find a source of l-dopa and get it in, I can get mucuna pruriens easy enough but like you said it it's not the same as taking l-dopa

Fasting is also part of my routine and I think it's been pivotal in both of my recoveries. I essentially only eat a diet of raw plants. Lots of leafy greens, vegetables, microgreens, root vegetables, lots of fresh ginger and turmeric, fats from avocado and very small amount of nuts, and very limited sugar from fruits. I also did I guess what would be considered intermittent fasting. I ate all my food within a 4 hour window and did not eat any type of snack. I only drank water for a 16-20 hour window and kept my very restricted diet constrained to a small window.

During my second recovery, I've done a few long term fasts, but I haven't gone beyond 12 days of fasting (water only). I believe all of these things have contributed to my recovery, but I have a feeling that l-dopa played a huge role and I won't really have any way of know unless other people try and end up experiencing success with it as well.

 

[ChemHead]

Was under the impression that pure l-dopa is pretty neurotoxic. Of course this was a long time ago when I was scraping around online looking for any sort of relief to my problems, and actually considered taking it. so things may have changed. Just throwing it out there.

I think there's research out there concluding that supplementation with thiamine can attenuate this neurotoxicity which apparently can result in dyskinesia of Parkinson sufferers. The toxicity is maybe due to the metabolism of excess dopamine metabolism causing an abundance of aldehydes which can be neurotoxic. Apparently, thiamine is involved in the metabolic process of dopamine and norepinephrine metabolism into aldehydes and then further metabolized for elimination and if you run out of thiamine, these aldehydes likely just end up lingering because they're unable to be efficiently metabolized to 2-(3,4-dihydroxyphenyl)-acetic acid or vanillylmandelic acid (depending on the metabolic pathway taken) and eliminated.

 

[cgh4444]

I think there's research out there concluding that supplementation with thiamine can attenuate this neurotoxicity. The toxicity is due to the metabolism of excess dopamine metabolism causing an abundance of aldehydes which can be neurotoxic. Apparently, thiamine is involved in the metabolic process of dopamine and norepinephrine metabolism into aldehydes and then further metabolized for elimination and if you run out of thiamine, these aldehydes just end up lingering because they're unable to be efficiently metabolized and eliminated.

ok interesting. Personally allithiamine works really well for me. Wonder if this is a clue.

 

[ChemHead]

Again, though, the people that are taking l-dopa are those that suffer from Parkinson disease.. not people that have deficient dopaminergic activity. Also, Parkinson sufferers are taking, at times, many grams of l-dopa and they're taking it for many months to years... basically indefinitely.

I only took it for a month when I recovered from PFS the first time. I would say that if anyone were to give this a try, it shouldn't take more than a couple months to correct the problem if l-dopa does in fact help in fixing it. If one were to go beyond a couple months taking l-dopa with no improvement, I would then probably begin to recommend they stop because, at that point, I would say that my recovery was likely due to my diet and lifestyle habits.

 

[Charger]

If others give this a shot and it works, then I'll be certain that l-dopa played a role in accelerating my recovery and it will also help a lot of people that are suffering from PFS.

I've recovered from finasteride twice, used L-Dopa the first time and it made me feel speedy, but definitely not what I would call normal.

Are you on any other supplements?

 

[ChemHead]

I've recovered from finasteride twice, used L-Dopa the first time and it made me feel speedy, but definitely not what I would call normal.

Are you on any other supplements?

I regularly take D3, iodine, selenium, ascorbic acid, biotin, riboflavin, and B12. I also use maca root regularly. Other than that, just my diet and fasting. I've occasionally dabbled with high doses of niacin because it was also something I was experimenting with during my first recovery.

 

[ChemHead]

I've recovered from finasteride twice, used L-Dopa the first time and it made me feel speedy

Regarding the "speedy" feel, I also experienced this, but I allowed for it to happen and continued taking it. If it goes too far and begins to affect my sleep, I dial it back.

What do you believe was pivotal in your recoveries from finasteride? I'm curious what process you went through.

 

[Tim Lundeen]

I'll just give you a link to a thread I started about a possible fix for PFS. It doesn't seem like anyone actually cares much about PFS on this particular forum, but here it is: PFS and the Dopamine-Prolactin connection

Thanks for the link to articles, very helpful!

 

[ChemHead]

Thanks for the link to articles, very helpful!

Ahh! You just reminded me... I didn't mention in this thread the connection between dopamine and hGH. Taking l-dopa has been clinically shown to raise hGHRH, thus elevating hGH. I can't help but think that may also be related to recovery from PFS, considering that there are a few people out there that claim hGH either helped them or "cured" them.

Anyway, I thought the connection between l-dopa and growth hormone was fascinating. What I would really love to see is some clinical studies done that can establish a relationship between dopaminergic activity and 5a-reductase expression. I'm willing to bet that dopamine or something further down its signaling cascade has some involvement in 5a-reductase expression, but I wasn't able to find any study that established any kind of connection between the two. It seems like there's no clinical publications on this probably because simply no research has been done in this area. I would imagine, however, that if a bunch of people started recovering from PFS due to l-dopa that we might start seeing clinical research to establish a relationship between dopamine and 5a-reductase expression.

It also may be that prolactin is a negative regulator of 5a-reductase activity and that dopamine's role in regulating 5a-reductase expression (if such a relationship truly exists) is actually in its antagonism of prolactinogenic activity.

 

[Charger]

Regarding the "speedy" feel, I also experienced this, but I allowed for it to happen and continued taking it. If it goes too far and begins to affect my sleep, I dial it back.

What do you believe was pivotal in your recoveries from finasteride? I'm curious what process you went through.

Took 1.25mg of Fin on 11/3/2019, blunt mood within 24 hours, spaced out feeling. Very numb **** for first 4 days, loss of sensation for atleast a couple months after. Anhedonia and insomnia. Very low stress resilience. Terrible memory.

My second run-in with PFS symptoms was from topical dutasteride a few months ago. Had high anxiety again which wasn't severe as my run in with oral finasteride, but very familiar. Hopped on SERMs to keep me propped up temporarily and then started T3 which I continue with now.

Notable supplements and treatments I tried:
5a-dhp - Fixed the terrible insomnia I was having from fin. Calming due to it's effects on cortisol and GABA-like effects.
Glycine - Helped with sleep, but made me very careless at work, probably it's effects on cortisol.
Proviron - About a week or two after trying Fin, made me temporarily horny, about it. Used months after trying fin, without a test base, makes me act like a psycho probably due to depleted estrogen, not a good idea without a test base, imo.
Boron - Felt more androgenic on this, scalp itch increases. Beneficial in the androgen sense, again, not a cure for PFS.
Exemestane, Androsterone, other AIs - These definitely won't help if your blunt mood is due too desensitized estrogen receptors but will help if your anxiety is being caused by elevated estrogen stimulating cortisol and prolactin.
Various Dopaminergic Herbs - Ginkgo, Forskolin, L-Dopa, Catuaba Bark, Cat's Claw, Adamantane, etc. These can all be beneficial, will help clear your mind, but this doesn't solve issues like blunted emotions. I still utilize herbs like Ginkgo, Forsklin, and Kutaj bark as I find them beneficial, not a cure though.
HCG - Definite improvements while on and increased my baseline notably, the boost in estrogen probably helps due to Fin's antagonistic effects on 17b-estradiol which I believe plays a role in the blunted mood people experience, need estrogen and cortisol for emotions. Progesterone antagonizes both of these. I still didn't feel optimal while off, though.
SERMs (Toremifene, Raloxifene, Nolvadex) - Feel pretty good while on (especially toremifene) until the anti-estrogen effects become too strong and effect things like memory, very dopaminergic otherwise.

The only thing that has improved my health back to baseline and beyond was daily T3 supplementation, which tackles all of the negative hormones we've discussed so far. Most people in their late 20s and onward are dealing with lowered hormones simply due to age, with or without previous finasteride use. Point being, most people are probably bordering hypo territory as they enter their 30s and finasteride use only exacerbates these hormonal issues. T3 is the one thing I take that makes me feel normal without any other necessary supplements and is a lot more convenient than pinning my **** with test or HCG for a lifetime. And I believe this would be the case either way, as I had hypo symptoms before Finasteride.

And that's why PFS is tricky, because everyone's baseline health is different and is further exacerbated or altered by Finasteride use. This is why I try to refrain from getting too excited about any particular supplement and touting it as a blanket fix for all.

IMO, the culprits and stuff to look at and consider for PFS in most cases are:
Estrogen, prolactin, cortisol, TSH, DHT, SHBG, Progesterone, Testosterone, and the receptors in play.

Many things can help and provide relief, but if one is still questioning whether or not they're at or beyond baseline, I wouldn't consider their case to be solved.

 

[cgh4444]

What T3 do you take? I mean what source if you don’t mind. Ty

 

[Charger]

What T3 do you take? I mean what source if you don’t mind. Ty

Tiromel is good. TIROMEL T3 - Official Tiromel Supplier

I also second Thiamine as already mentioned in this thread.

If I had to pick two supplements to use for life, it would be 50mcg T3 + 300mg Thiamine HCL.

Finasteride aside, I think most people would notice big benefits in mood and energy from this combo alone.

 

[Kram]

Thanks. That sounds promising. I might buy some tomorrow. Tried a lot of things. I recovered in December 2019 for 4-5 days when I took bpc 157 wich fixes dopamine issues. The same time I also took dhea and pregnenolone. So I cant tell wich one did what. But for 4-5 days I felt like how I felt before fin. It was magical. Horny all day. Huge load. Could have sex 3-4 times a day and still horny. Brain function back. Goals and motivation to wake up. Happy feelings.

I guess the bpc 157 effect weaned off after 4-5 days. And another injection did not bring the same effect.

I tried 4 months of mono hcg. Joekools protocol from this forum. It made me even worse. I am ever since aphatic. No feelings. Now I am 10 weeks on TRT without any effect so far. I would describe my situatuon as mental CFS. İt's like super slow brain function and feeling as if I need to sleep all day.

I tried about 0.5g thiamine daily for a week but had no effect. But somehow my weekly migraines stopped after taking thiamine, wich is a huge gain in life quality.

I had a similar experience with BPC-157 a couple months ago. Felt great for 2-3 days and I thought I was finally healed and then the effects went away. Can be so frustrating.

 

[cgh4444]

Tiromel is good. TIROMEL T3 - Official Tiromel Supplier

I also second Thiamine as already mentioned in this thread.

If I had to pick two supplements to use for life, it would be 50mcg T3 + 300mg Thiamine HCL.

Finasteride aside, I think most people would notice big benefits in mood and energy from this combo alone.

nice thanks. And agreed w thiamine. Although for me there’s a huge difference in thiamine firms. Allithiamine is like taking a totally different thing altogether for me than the others.

 

[Charger]

nice thanks. And agreed w thiamine. Although for me there’s a huge difference in thiamine firms. Allithiamine is like taking a totally different thing altogether for me than the others.

Yes, I've tried allthiamine and others, Thiamine HCL is definitely my preferred go-to.

 

[MattFord]

Took 1.25mg of Fin on 11/3/2019, blunt mood within 24 hours, spaced out feeling. Very numb **** for first 4 days, loss of sensation for atleast a couple months after. Anhedonia and insomnia. Very low stress resilience. Terrible memory.

My second run-in with PFS symptoms was from topical dutasteride a few months ago. Had high anxiety again which wasn't severe as my run in with oral finasteride, but very familiar. Hopped on SERMs to keep me propped up temporarily and then started T3 which I continue with now.

Notable supplements and treatments I tried:
5a-dhp - Fixed the terrible insomnia I was having from fin. Calming due to it's effects on cortisol and GABA-like effects.
Glycine - Helped with sleep, but made me very careless at work, probably it's effects on cortisol.
Proviron - About a week or two after trying Fin, made me temporarily horny, about it. Used months after trying fin, without a test base, makes me act like a psycho probably due to depleted estrogen, not a good idea without a test base, imo.
Boron - Felt more androgenic on this, scalp itch increases. Beneficial in the androgen sense, again, not a cure for PFS.
Exemestane, Androsterone, other AIs - These definitely won't help if your blunt mood is due too desensitized estrogen receptors but will help if your anxiety is being caused by elevated estrogen stimulating cortisol and prolactin.
Various Dopaminergic Herbs - Ginkgo, Forskolin, L-Dopa, Catuaba Bark, Cat's Claw, Adamantane, etc. These can all be beneficial, will help clear your mind, but this doesn't solve issues like blunted emotions. I still utilize herbs like Ginkgo, Forsklin, and Kutaj bark as I find them beneficial, not a cure though.
HCG - Definite improvements while on and increased my baseline notably, the boost in estrogen probably helps due to Fin's antagonistic effects on 17b-estradiol which I believe plays a role in the blunted mood people experience, need estrogen and cortisol for emotions. Progesterone antagonizes both of these. I still didn't feel optimal while off, though.
SERMs (Toremifene, Raloxifene, Nolvadex) - Feel pretty good while on (especially toremifene) until the anti-estrogen effects become too strong and effect things like memory, very dopaminergic otherwise.

The only thing that has improved my health back to baseline and beyond was daily T3 supplementation, which tackles all of the negative hormones we've discussed so far. Most people in their late 20s and onward are dealing with lowered hormones simply due to age, with or without previous finasteride use. Point being, most people are probably bordering hypo territory as they enter their 30s and finasteride use only exacerbates these hormonal issues. T3 is the one thing I take that makes me feel normal without any other necessary supplements and is a lot more convenient than pinning my **** with test or HCG for a lifetime. And I believe this would be the case either way, as I had hypo symptoms before Finasteride.

And that's why PFS is tricky, because everyone's baseline health is different and is further exacerbated or altered by Finasteride use. This is why I try to refrain from getting too excited about any particular supplement and touting it as a blanket fix for all.

IMO, the culprits and stuff to look at and consider for PFS in most cases are:
Estrogen, prolactin, cortisol, TSH, DHT, SHBG, Progesterone, Testosterone, and the receptors in play.

Many things can help and provide relief, but if one is still questioning whether or not they're at or beyond baseline, I wouldn't consider their case to be solved.

What dose of topical dutasteride did you take and in what vehicle? I genuinly dont understand people that take higher doses than 0.01-0.06 since this is being used in ALL of the litterature that pointa towards neglible systemic effects. Basing dosage on other anectodal experience is a recipe for disaster.

 

[MyUsernameHere]

Since there is much talk about dopamine and prolactin in this thread, what about B6 (P5P)? Would that not be in the same league as l-dopa?

 

[Charger]

Since there is much talk about dopamine and prolactin in this thread, what about B6 (P5P)? Would that not be in the same league as l-dopa?

It is good for prolactin, however, I used high doses (300mg/d) that were comparable in effectiveness to cabergoline and I ended up having an acne breakout on my right bicep.

I still use B6, it just comes in whatever amount is in the Monster energy drinks I have everyday.

 

[ChemHead]

It is good for prolactin, however, I used high doses (300mg/d) that were comparable in effectiveness to cabergoline and I ended up having an acne breakout on my right bicep.

I still use B6, it just comes in whatever amount is in the Monster energy drinks I have everyday.

Not necessarily relevant to your comment, but I thought I'd link this publication since you mentioned B6. It mentions pyridoxine as being sort of an antidote for neurotoxicity in the event of an l-dopa overdose.

https://watermark.silverchair.com/90-10-613.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAqcwggKjBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKUMIICkAIBADCCAokGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMkJwNcwqN9-qNH2rcAgEQgIICWosmhSXTCljhdCTZKELJnUQ0FymzA0cLh4s5XklNKw_88BAwkGmxXxyqlikl8ptLg9a0EHFFhXNOoWr92e-BpmckTUW5-VQVjWq-bBom-AnewzxeizL1XF6kLWzZ7V8d9pPyE_OhOsx5Ul_BjfklLGeezd6R9Yq4TPrHmHCUyUGEBdp5dxExCAmdKmEOVrOJ-H9rht-blMy0IK3OMe_CJVuJvbHlkDNBGNQwhbiRWlo1vLuIFZlc3JlC2k-7ww6nxCvTvFxUg_NujvsATGN1hFL9k_N5QXy8JVu8uBonSUntadLz7OZ85t9HHzbCvqT9ODxzoItDVtPgAPQK5HUduVbhs_0t1C20vJVgOVClCVeOpSWEcysWg9iPXxUsmMuU6KEcvZtl7766bdV9GuZlelMaNvkRx0n2aEBNh1QNF4N8ceQsgQLiduplmoKwD94_skrCPGcbBMIpjRLThZOEFNZhmxm35TAO5-qpXMG81Ax2oukxUi_oj1hwmSKuJrjB-x-G7BjfleefOsYk0SoacZyRDm1XcMPVKQ8ESthSzHgL7r2geBZ_mYmDZByb1L3Xps2biwY9I5LHngYb3TzlhGwd-IWO69ZJgmP_TA0ME-34F4UP1PGYrNGepk1v4UKdAM8FTR1BjJ8uRQLwGU5RxUs6BntZTivLDkq6Q3ePZJAjpl4Wcqo4X83yJK88tHXxQ4Es6L2A9EA8DZKnGyBGbXX1AhjANnSEJ-eUGEudNUvxRUOOPXNSFbmtEiw2-uzirZwayuE5DLKGfPtLo7ZgRdDtaYIYwAYWQwgM

edit: also makes me wonder if supplementing with B6 may interfere with l-dopa having the desired effect needed to help with PFS since it's encouraging its peripheral decarboxylation before it is able to even make it to the brain.