Looking for a "lesser evil" anti-anxiety drug

[InChristAlone]

Because I am cynical, my general thinking now is that everything the mainstream medical system tries to scare me away from, or keep me from getting is possibly good or ok. Here I am referencing the benzos - well one I guess. I used to have panic attacks, claustrophobia, couldn't ride elevators, etc. Clonazepem helped me enormously. Also during periods of severe anxiety/stress. I have used them off/on for those things, and have never gotten addicted. I would often have a bottle sit for months. Eventually the panic attacks and claustrophobia, and other severe anxiety states went away. I don't know why either. It actually did something for anxiety. I've never developed a tolerance or needed more than 0.5 to 1 mg to achieve results.

I'm obviously not suggesting this for anyone, or that it is a "good' thing. For me, it worked well. I still have a bottle of 60 my physician gives me, that usually lasts a year. I now use it once in a while for sleep, and when I have severe pain due to my GI disorder. Paradoxically, when I am in a lot of pain, it feels almost as though my bowels are relaxing and I will be able to have bowel movements more easily. There is nothing else to offer me - and it helps. My goal, of course, is always not to need it, but for me - I guess it has been a good all purpose drug. I do have it to use, but I could go without it if I had to and never had any withdrawal symptoms (that I was aware of). I also do not take it more than a couple of times a week.. and always only 1 or 1/2 tab.

Every drug has side effects, but these have been around forever, are dirt cheap, and I know how my body reacts. It is interesting, b/c if I take benedryl, which is over the counter - I am zombie-fied, and feel cognitively impaired, and even notice results into the next day. The clonazepam makes me feel relaxed but still functional and with my mind intact.

That is great you never became addicted. I believe it is when benzos are taken for a week or two that dependency can result.

 

[OliviaD]

That is great you never became addicted. I believe it is when benzos are taken for a week or two that dependency can result.

Yes, I guess I am lucky -although I always thought of it as for "emergency" use, or rather "very difficult time" use. :) was not using it for everyday anxiety or pain. I was hesitant as whether or not to say anything - for whatever reason, thought I'd chime sometimes a drug per se is not all good or bad.

I do hear of people taking it several times a day, for extended periods, then I imagine tolerance can develop, and withdrawing could be hard. I don't think it would be a good thing to use for general anxiety or on a daily basis for an extended period of time for most people. I just find it is interesting that it would be virtually impossible to get a prescription for this nowadays I think, but very easy for some kind of SSRI or serotonin increasing drug, or the new 'baby' - gabapentin, which I think can have a lot of negative side effects. I guess stay away from them all, is the bottom line!

 

[I'm.No.One]

The family member would be open to micro-dosing but the legality is an issue as it might create more anxiety. I'm thinking Golden Euphorics must be out of Oregon or DC? When you say "discreet", do you mean regarding "labeling"?

They are located in Oregon but they ship anywhere in the US, they also have suppliers in Canada/ EU.

By discreet I mean the outer packaging is just a mailer, the bottle is for sure properly labeled, but the payment is the most discreet over cash app.

We've been ordering from them for over 6 months & never have a problem.

 

[I'm.No.One]

I have used them off/on for those things, and have never gotten addicted. I would often have a bottle sit for months. Eventually the panic attacks and claustrophobia, and other severe anxiety states went away. I don't know why either. It actually did something for anxiety. I've never developed a tolerance or needed more than 0.5 to 1 mg to achieve results.

So just to chime in here, there's a lot of misconception about what benzodiazepine addiction looks like.

I can see it happening here where you mention you have a bottle sitting around and didn't use them, people associate addiction with things like heroin. Something that you are craving 24/7.

This is not how it really works with benzodiazepines, in fact, the two years that it took me to "safely" taper off of them having been prescribed the same amount you were taking, I did not want to take them.

It wasn't like I was fighting some urge like a heroin addict to get my benzo fix.

It's about the physical changes it makes to your GABA receptors/levels and the living hell that is experiencing normal gaba levels after swimming in it.

To give you a little bit of understanding, there were days that even as I used very slow liquid titration I wasn't able to use my hands, my skin would burn like fire all over my entire body, I would have invasive thoughts about hurting myself and anybody around me ( I am not psychotic. This is a literal symptom of benzodiazepine withdrawal), there was an entire week where I could not stand because my equilibrium was thrown off, I had extreme agoraphobia that I had never experienced before, lost my ability to form sentences in full for about 2 months, I even had to relearn fine motor skills.

Hop onto any benzodiazepine recovery group and you will see I got off easy. Most of them have in memory walls for the people who have committed suicide.

Anyhow, essentially what you did was use them in tiny amounts and sparingly. Which to be fair is how doctors should be subscribing them and utilizing them, but that is not how they are typically prescribed.

Benzos also helped me through anxiety in the beginning.

But it's important to note that benzos are an epidemic that are prescribed to massive amounts of people every single day. Statistically you know more people that are on benzos than aren't, and these are just numbers of people that are legally being prescribed them.

There is also a huge issue where people share their benzos with other people as casually as they would share a cigarette.

Statistically more people are dependent on benzodiazepines than they are on opioids, in fact, benzodiazepines and their capacity to amplify substances in our body are the reason that more people are dying from heroin beyond fentanyl issues.

I know four people myself personally, or I should say that I knew four people, who took a benzo for the first time and then went out drinking.

They never woke up.

So basically what I'm saying is that just because it worked for you does not make it benign or good.

It makes people emotionless zombies who walk around with very little empathy because the gaba levels in their brain get to the point that you don't actually feel anything.

In fact, beyond the physical symptoms, I had one of the hardest things that I had to face coming off of benzos was literally learning how to feel feelings again. It's terrifying.

Could it be used for very occasional panic attacks?

Sure.

Do doctors often prescribe it for long-term use in huge amounts and people develop tolerance withdrawal very often and end up committing suicide when no amount of dose gets them back to that numb feeling?

Yes.

Anyhow, just thought I would share as a person who actually lived though it.

 

[OliviaD]

So just to chime in here, there's a lot of misconception about what benzodiazepine addiction looks like.

I can see it happening here where you mention you have a bottle sitting around and didn't use them, people associate addiction with things like heroin. Something that you are craving 24/7.

This is not how it really works with benzodiazepines, in fact, the two years that it took me to "safely" taper off of them having been prescribed the same amount you were taking, I did not want to take them.

It wasn't like I was fighting some urge like a heroin addict to get my benzo fix.

It's about the physical changes it makes to your GABA receptors/levels and the living hell that is experiencing normal gaba levels after swimming in it.

To give you a little bit of understanding, there were days that even as I used very slow liquid titration I wasn't able to use my hands, my skin would burn like fire all over my entire body, I would have invasive thoughts about hurting myself and anybody around me ( I am not psychotic. This is a literal symptom of benzodiazepine withdrawal), there was an entire week where I could not stand because my equilibrium was thrown off, I had extreme agoraphobia that I had never experienced before, lost my ability to form sentences in full for about 2 months, I even had to relearn fine motor skills.

Hop onto any benzodiazepine recovery group and you will see I got off easy. Most of them have in memory walls for the people who have committed suicide.

Anyhow, essentially what you did was use them in tiny amounts and sparingly. Which to be fair is how doctors should be subscribing them and utilizing them, but that is not how they are typically prescribed.

Benzos also helped me through anxiety in the beginning.

But it's important to note that benzos are an epidemic that are prescribed to massive amounts of people every single day. Statistically you know more people that are on benzos than aren't, and these are just numbers of people that are legally being prescribed them.

There is also a huge issue where people share their benzos with other people as casually as they would share a cigarette.

Statistically more people are dependent on benzodiazepines than they are on opioids, in fact, benzodiazepines and their capacity to amplify substances in our body are the reason that more people are dying from heroin beyond fentanyl issues.

I know four people myself personally, or I should say that I knew four people, who took a benzo for the first time and then went out drinking.

They never woke up.

So basically what I'm saying is that just because it worked for you does not make it benign or good.

It makes people emotionless zombies who walk around with very little empathy because the gaba levels in their brain get to the point that you don't actually feel anything.

In fact, beyond the physical symptoms, I had one of the hardest things that I had to face coming off of benzos was literally learning how to feel feelings again. It's terrifying.

Could it be used for very occasional panic attacks?

Sure.

Do doctors often prescribe it for long-term use in huge amounts and people develop tolerance withdrawal very often and end up committing suicide when no amount of dose gets them back to that numb feeling?

Yes.

Anyhow, just thought I would share as a person who actually lived though it.

Well, I never said it was "good and benign" , quite the opposite, although it has been benign and good for me. That was all I said. I did not suggest it for anyone else. Although I would have to assume there are others like me. It people chose to take other people's prescription drugs, or give theirs away - that is not my problem, no that of other responsible users. I said, it is apparently a problem for many people - just like a whole lot of other substances.

I don't think I should feel guilty or be denied the use of something that works well for me, NOR should the millions who need pain meds suffer (and they do - I'm taking about the elderly mainly) have to jump through hoops and be denied what they need b/c of the people who become addicted and have problems. I have a lot of empathy - especially for people who are denied medications that can help them b/c of the fact that some people have problems or become addicted.

I hear stories of hell from people coming off of all kinds of drugs and substances.

*The reason I have a bottle sitting around to use prn, is b/c my doctor know me very well, and knows that I have been use it this way off and on for 30 years - and so it is very unlikely that at 61 years old, I will change. This is not how it is typically prescribed, and if this doc retires, I'll be lucky to get it.

What I said was no drug or substance is "all bad or good".
And people are individuals, and respond to things differently.

And all that you are describing to me are people who were using it inappropriately - i.e going out and drinking. I don't know how much they took and how much they drank, but I doubt they were small amounts. I know a lot of people who took Xanax and drank and died. That is much more dangerous than clonazepam and seems to be prescribed more frequently. Heck, I have a bottle of that the vet gave me for my dog's separation anxiety.. he took 1/2, it made him more anxious, so I never used it again.

Not sure what he point of your lecture was - am I supposed to feel wrong in properly using a medication that can be helpful and sharing that it is possible because of people who take other people's meds, give away their meds, drink with meds when it is clearly contraindicated???

It seems a little bizarre that you are trying to make me feel guilty or 'bad' because a drug has been helpful for me, without negative consequences, because of the bad experience that you had and the other horror stories you are aware of. There aren't any forums or support groups of people who use it without problems to refer you to.

Would you suggest that every person who drinks a glass of wine once in a while needs to be lectured about all the horrible alcoholics suffering through detox.. with sensations of bugs crawling all over them, vomiting, curled up in pain and suffering; and that they need to go read stories. Maybe you would.

Again - no substance is benign. One has to weigh the benefits and risks. And one should. I made an informed decision to use clonazepam and to do so responsibly.

 

[OliviaD]

So just to chime in here, there's a lot of misconception about what benzodiazepine addiction looks like.

I can see it happening here where you mention you have a bottle sitting around and didn't use them, people associate addiction with things like heroin. Something that you are craving 24/7.

This is not how it really works with benzodiazepines, in fact, the two years that it took me to "safely" taper off of them having been prescribed the same amount you were taking, I did not want to take them.

It wasn't like I was fighting some urge like a heroin addict to get my benzo fix.

It's about the physical changes it makes to your GABA receptors/levels and the living hell that is experiencing normal gaba levels after swimming in it.

To give you a little bit of understanding, there were days that even as I used very slow liquid titration I wasn't able to use my hands, my skin would burn like fire all over my entire body, I would have invasive thoughts about hurting myself and anybody around me ( I am not psychotic. This is a literal symptom of benzodiazepine withdrawal), there was an entire week where I could not stand because my equilibrium was thrown off, I had extreme agoraphobia that I had never experienced before, lost my ability to form sentences in full for about 2 months, I even had to relearn fine motor skills.

Hop onto any benzodiazepine recovery group and you will see I got off easy. Most of them have in memory walls for the people who have committed suicide.

Anyhow, essentially what you did was use them in tiny amounts and sparingly. Which to be fair is how doctors should be subscribing them and utilizing them, but that is not how they are typically prescribed.

Benzos also helped me through anxiety in the beginning.

But it's important to note that benzos are an epidemic that are prescribed to massive amounts of people every single day. Statistically you know more people that are on benzos than aren't, and these are just numbers of people that are legally being prescribed them.

There is also a huge issue where people share their benzos with other people as casually as they would share a cigarette.

Statistically more people are dependent on benzodiazepines than they are on opioids, in fact, benzodiazepines and their capacity to amplify substances in our body are the reason that more people are dying from heroin beyond fentanyl issues.

I know four people myself personally, or I should say that I knew four people, who took a benzo for the first time and then went out drinking.

They never woke up.

So basically what I'm saying is that just because it worked for you does not make it benign or good.

It makes people emotionless zombies who walk around with very little empathy because the gaba levels in their brain get to the point that you don't actually feel anything.

In fact, beyond the physical symptoms, I had one of the hardest things that I had to face coming off of benzos was literally learning how to feel feelings again. It's terrifying.

Could it be used for very occasional panic attacks?

Sure.

Do doctors often prescribe it for long-term use in huge amounts and people develop tolerance withdrawal very often and end up committing suicide when no amount of dose gets them back to that numb feeling?

Yes.

Anyhow, just thought I would share as a person who actually lived though it.

p.s. what benzo did you take? There are differences. Personally, I think clonazepam is much less problematic.
Again, I did not suggest that anybody use anything. I relayed a personal experience to negate the negative bias that was written about a standard low level anxiolytic that can be helpful in the right situation.

You, after fear mongering based on your personal bad experience about an un-named drug (benzo is a broad category), actually did recommend that a stranger on a forum use psilocybin - which can be very anxiety inducing, and is not regulated in any way.

Oh - and using clonazepam the way I did did not make me an emotionless zombie walking around with little empathy at all. In fact, I am sure all who know me would say I trend toward the high side on the emotion and empathy scale.

 

[InChristAlone]

p.s. what benzo did you take? There are differences. Personally, I think clonazepam is much less problematic.
Again, I did not suggest that anybody use anything. I relayed a personal experience to negate the negative bias that was written about a standard low level anxiolytic that can be helpful in the right situation.

You, after fear mongering based on your personal bad experience about an un-named drug (benzo is a broad category), actually did recommend that a stranger on a forum use psilocybin - which can be very anxiety inducing, and is not regulated in any way.

Oh - and using clonazepam the way I did did not make me an emotionless zombie walking around with little empathy at all. In fact, I am sure all who know me would say I trend toward the high side on the emotion and empathy scale.

She did not seem to be coming at you at all, I have an immense amount of empathy for those struggling to get off benzos so I can imagine she would want to share more about what dependency looks like so that no one else would have to go through it. I am also grateful for those that do send out strong warnings because it is likely the reason I didn't take my prescription for Xanax as I knew someone personally who shared that he almost died coming off Xanax (he had PTSD from war). I am someone who would have likely developed a dependency because of the level of anxiety I had. They don't tell you not to take it everyday. Had I taken it even three days in a row I could have went down a similar path. I would rather most people use niacin for anxiety or other orthomolecular approaches so I don't think these drugs should even be available for most people.

 

[OliviaD]

She did not seem to be coming at you at all, I have an immense amount of empathy for those struggling to get off benzos so I can imagine she would want to share more about what dependency looks like so that no one else would have to go through it. I am also grateful for those that do send out strong warnings because it is likely the reason I didn't take my prescription for Xanax as I knew someone personally who shared that he almost died coming off Xanax (he had PTSD from war). I am someone who would have likely developed a dependency because of the level of anxiety I had. They don't tell you not to take it everyday. Had I taken it even three days in a row I could have went down a similar path. I would rather most people use niacin for anxiety or other orthomolecular approaches so I don't think these drugs should even be available for most people

She did not seem to be coming at you at all, I have an immense amount of empathy for those struggling to get off benzos so I can imagine she would want to share more about what dependency looks like so that no one else would have to go through it. I am also grateful for those that do send out strong warnings because it is likely the reason I didn't take my prescription for Xanax as I knew someone personally who shared that he almost died coming off Xanax (he had PTSD from war). I am someone who would have likely developed a dependency because of the level of anxiety I had. They don't tell you not to take it everyday. Had I taken it even three days in a row I could have went down a similar path. I would rather most people use niacin for anxiety or other orthomolecular approaches so I don't think these drugs should even be available for most people.

oops - I don't know how i got you twice , there :)
I think so - and it was quite judgmental to assume that I needed a lecture about the suffering of addicts (is this a contest about who suffers more) or , now as you add. who has more empathy.

*My comment re: the clonazepam was made in reply to someone saying it was always addictive... blah blah. NOT suggesting it's use for the person the OP was talking about - as they are depressed. I don't think drugs should be the treatment (direct) for depression anxiety.

Benzos are not appropriate treatment for PTSD and other related disorders. Apparently people had incompetent medical care - which should not condemn the appropriate use.

I made very succinct statements. Obviously drugs are a last resort, have pros and cons to be weighed. Given that, a substance in and of itself is not good or bad.
People are different.
Apparently it was a bad topic to bring up in a sensitive group. Apparently talk about one drug (which isn't the one killing your friend) helping people is not allowed because of the negative experiences of some people.
I will keep that in mind.
I'll delete the posts if I can.

 

[OliviaD]

I would be very careful about straight up deciding to high dose thiamine. Dr Lonsdale has a lot of information on this, and a certain protocol has to be followed along with the cofactors.

Just simply high dosing thiamine on its own is dangerous and will do more harm than good ime.

Although I agree b vitamins are extremely important (and powerful) in treating anxiety and depression.

I’ve learnt the hard way it’s better to bite the bullet and invest in Idealabs energin (although it seems expensive, a very high quality balanced supplement, free of excipients).

Seems like there is always an opinion on each side of the fence. Dr. Constantine (sp?) of Italy who has worked with 1000s of patients, mainly parkinson's disease, and published re: using high dose thiamine recommends straight up high dose thiamine, and states it is quite safe.

It makes sense to me - to only do one "treatment' at a time, otherwise it is hard to know what is working.

*I will admit one caveat - I have started this, and am taking a B complex along with it, personal reasons :)

 

[Attakai]

Phenibut bar non
Can be addictive and you need to cycle it.
Do your research about it before using, but it is extremely good for anxiety

 

[thesmileyone]

lemon balm and magnolia bark were game changers for me, along with aniracetam which I can no longer get. All three have zero side effects for me other than the lemon balm causing hypothyroidism, so I had to stop using it.

 

[InChristAlone]

oops - I don't know how i got you twice , there :)
I think so - and it was quite judgmental to assume that I needed a lecture about the suffering of addicts (is this a contest about who suffers more) or , now as you add. who has more empathy.

*My comment re: the clonazepam was made in reply to someone saying it was always addictive... blah blah. NOT suggesting it's use for the person the OP was talking about - as they are depressed. I don't think drugs should be the treatment (direct) for depression anxiety.

Benzos are not appropriate treatment for PTSD and other related disorders. Apparently people had incompetent medical care - which should not condemn the appropriate use.

I made very succinct statements. Obviously drugs are a last resort, have pros and cons to be weighed. Given that, a substance in and of itself is not good or bad.
People are different.
Apparently it was a bad topic to bring up in a sensitive group. Apparently talk about one drug (which isn't the one killing your friend) helping people is not allowed because of the negative experiences of some people.
I will keep that in mind.
I'll delete the posts if I can.

You are free to share your experience, we are all here to share. She just wanted to clarify that a dependency can result not that someone wants to use it because it is addictive like chocolate or something stimulating like that.

 

[OliviaD]

You are free to share your experience, we are all here to share. She just wanted to clarify that a dependency can result not that someone wants to use it because it is addictive like chocolate or something stimulating like that.

Not sure I understood the second part of your comment, but I did the point. And my main point, with was probably not clear - was in response to someone before me who had written : 1 . about benzodiaz's as a group (there is a big difference between clonazepam and xanax) 2. saying they were always addictive and harmful.

Phenibut, as someone mentioned above, is in the same category. They are GABA agonists. They increase GABA (I believe someone in the thread wrote the opposite).

Also, for anyone's info: From Ray Peat's Newsletter May 2008
The GABA system, defenses, and tissue renewal

Just a few excerpts - one can refer to the entire newsletter for more detail, etc.

"When an excess of stimulation threatens to damage a tissue, processes of inhibition can restore stability. But when cells are damaged irreparably, stimulation can induce other cells to grow and multiply to replace the lost cells. The growth continues until inhibitory processes are restored."

"Protective inhibition is one of the most important principles in biology. Heart disease, cancer, anxiety, allergies, epilepsy, degenerative nerve diseases, endocrine disorders, The agents of protective inhibition increase survival, along with mental abilities and metabolic rate. Too often the excitants suppress energy production while increasing the need for energy, leading to impaired functions and failure of restorative processes. inappropriate inflammation and shock all involve defects of protective inhibition. For thousands of years people have understood the value of herbal sedatives, soporifics, and anti-convulsants, but modem neurology's ideological commitments have retarded the scientific development oftherapies to enhance protective inhibition. "

It's important not to confuse the process of inhibition with psychological depression, which often involves an inability to inhibit the stress responses. The GABA system restrains the production of cortisol, which is typically increased in depression. GABA-supporting drugs that had been used to treat epilepsy are turning out to have antidepressive, moodelevating effects. The diazepam type of antianxiety, antiseizure drug activates the GABA system, and this system is intimately involved with the synthesis of steroids. Several varieties of that type of sedative increase the synthesis of the neurosteroids, derived from progesterone. Progesterone and some of its metabolites protect the mitochondria, while acting with GABA to increase the state of inhibition "

A basic theme of the newsletter is the negative effects, short; but especially long term, of too much excitatory activity and stimulation, which leads to impaired energy production, dysfunction and disease.

RP supports the use of a drug like clonazepam as a therapeutic for conditions where there is excess excitation, and explains how a drug like that does not work how the medical establishment tends to think it does - and that (as RP often says - the medical industry often campaigns against certain meds or supplements or anything that could be beneficial, because either it is what they have been indoctrinated to believe, and for whatever their underlying agenda is. I'm talking about the drug I use - clonazepam - as you see, it has a lot of beneficial effects. All the medical system will tell you is that it is a devil drug and leads to the horror stories repeated above. I was trying to point out that is not an accurate picture. Clonazepam is only an agonist of one type of GABA receptor.

I am not saying that you, your friend, the other person writing and all the people he knows have not suffered. Of course I think that is awful . I just know that Gaba supporting substances can be useful and can be used and are used - you don't hear about all the people using them successfully.

People on here write all the time about using crypto.. which affects dopamine, serotonin, and acetylcholine. It is affecting one's neurochemistry quite a bit also! I know I would not tolerate it, because I can't even take it's relative benedrul! I am non functional - sedated yet anxious with the 1 tablet standard dose!

I don't feel bad at all with clonazepam, and would rather take something that directly works on the GABA system, increases the production of neurosteroids which my be why it has a pain relieving effect for me, and may possibly be protective to my mitochondria.

*Main point - everyone is different, and people need to research, choose what they think might be best.. and then of course .. try, because we don't know how we will react to things. And, if taking something with a potential for dependency, be very careful in how one uses. I do think that people should get as much information as they can - objective - information.

I know people are repeating things that they are hearing from the medical system and the media, and the public in general. I know that what - 20 soldiers a day commit suicide, I'm sure it is even more. I know the rate of suicide is now higher than ever.. I know unbearable anxiety and depression are often the causes. Nothing is simple, nothing is black and white. There are times when benzo type drugs save lives. Many (not all) of the people who have problems are not taking them for a serious problem, but recreationally or to 'feel good'. And that is how almost all people become addicted to opioids. They aren't taking them for pain. People who take them for pain associate them with pain, don't see them as a 'fun' thing, don't develop addiction. Again, talking in generality.. and gone on too much.

I wish every one luck and good health.. AND I would like to take no pharma or even over the counter substances ideally. I'm not there - yet. In the meantime.. working to best get through the day.. and year :) I think we learn so much from hearing others' experiences. I know I do.

 

[RealNeat]

Pulsed Kava Kava tincture in OJ. Does the trick for me every time. Root tincture only and still be somewhat aware of unlikely liver issues, usually a contamination issue.

 

[OliviaD]

Pulsed Kava Kava tincture in OJ. Does the trick for me every time. Root tincture only and still be somewhat aware of unlikely liver issues, usually a contamination issue.

What is pulsed kava kava tincture... vs just kava kava..

 

[RealNeat]

What is pulsed kava kava tincture... vs just kava kava..

Nothing, my wording was weird. I meant I use it on and off and not every day. I pulse the use of it. I didn't read the whole thread so excuse me if it was already mentioned. But OJ does make it much more palatable. I take a couple or few .7ml dropper fulls of the extract of Kava by HerbPharm

 

[Atman]

Check for low thyroid and low vitamin D.
In 99,9% of cases, you don't need any fancy drugs.