Looking for a "lesser evil" anti-anxiety drug

[AlisonG]

Family member with anxiety and depression is going to ask the doctor for a prescription. Are some better than others, from a long-term health point of view?

 

[Korven]

I believe Ray has spoken favourably about using some of the tricyclic antidepressants such as amitriptyline. That could be an option. I'm not sure how healthy it is long-term.

 

[SamYo123]

what are they fearful of in the future and what are they dwelling on in the past?

 

[AlisonG]

I believe Ray has spoken favourably about using some of the tricyclic antidepressants such as amitriptyline. That could be an option. I'm not sure how healthy it is long-term.

Thank you. I'll look into this!

what are they fearful of in the future and what are they dwelling on in the past?

I don't know specifically

 

[Regina]

I think pregnenolone would be the best and safest start.

 

[Peatness]

I believe Ray has spoken favourably about using some of the tricyclic antidepressants such as amitriptyline. That could be an option. I'm not sure how healthy it is long-term.

Anticholinergic drugs and risk of dementia: case-control study

Objectives To estimate the association between the duration and level of exposure to different classes of anticholinergic drugs and subsequent incident dementia. Design Case-control study. Setting General practices in the UK contributing to the Clinical Practice Research Datalink...

www.bmj.com

Safest Tricyclic Antidepressants?

Here is what Ray thinks of amitriptyline: Me: Hi Dr. Peat, I wanted to know if amitriptyline would be a safe option for treating depression/anxiety in your opinion. My doctor is recommending that I take it. Thanks. Ray: I think it's safe. Compare the structure with cyproheptadine. Have you...

raypeatforum.com

 

[pineywoodrooter]

In my experience, nothing the doctor gives is safe. As with me, the doctor will prescribe either an SSRI or a benzo. Probably the former.

Option 1 will probably cause apathy, anhedonia, loss of empathy and feeling in general, and sexual dysfunction. Sometimes the effects are permanent.

Option 2, if taken daily or frequently, will lead to rapid tolerance, addiction, and then hellacious withdrawal.

Propranolol can help some, but it’s mainly for a targeted situation like giving a presentation.

Adaptogenic supplements like ash, tongkat ali, l-theanine provide a little relief, but it’s short lived and usually results in rebound anxiety.

I have not found a supplement or prescription drug that works consistently or provides long term relief without relatively serious side effects.

Anxiety can sometimes be caused by physical health issues. Could check testosterone, thyroid, blood sugar, etc. If an issue is discovered, work on resolving it to see if the anxiety improves.

Otherwise, I don’t think targeted anxiety medication will be a good long term solution. The anxiety medications come with significant side effects. I guess if I were to choose one over the other, I’d go with the benzo, but only for a short amount of time.

PSSD is real and can happen after only a few doses, so I’d pass on the SSRI.

Hopefully you find a solution. I’ve been unsuccessful so far.

 

[InChristAlone]

Cypro is my anti-anxiety drug, high levels of brain histamine can cause anxiety. But you should figure out why the histamine is high. I'm still figuring that out. Might be trying copper. Other than that, learning how to cope with uncomfortable feelings and letting emotions pass through is the safest and best cure for anxiety and depression as our mind/body are intricately and tightly linked.

 

[A.R]

Family member with anxiety and depression is going to ask the doctor for a prescription. Are some better than others, from a long-term health point of view?

If the family member is in bad shape physically along with mentally (I.e suffers from obesity/over weight/high estrogen symptoms/bad digestion etc), then I would be very careful about recommending any hormones to them. Whilst pregnenolone /thyroid etc are safe hormones, in a compromised state they won’t give benefit IME.

Much safe alternative will be trying coffee/caffiene/Aspirin/k2 mk4/taurine/glycine as natural antidepressants. Believe it or not I’ve read somewhere bananas have antidepressant properties. Idealabs lapodin from personal experience, just a few drops on the wrist, and almost an instant wave of calmness comes over me, along with improved digestion.

It depends a lot on the person, and also trying to come down to the route cause of their depression and anxiety.

 

[A.R]

If the family member is in bad shape physically along with mentally (I.e suffers from obesity/over weight/high estrogen symptoms/bad digestion etc), then I would be very careful about recommending any hormones to them. Whilst pregnenolone /thyroid etc are safe hormones, in a compromised state they won’t give benefit IME.

Much safe alternative will be trying coffee/caffiene/Aspirin/k2 mk4/taurine/glycine as natural antidepressants. Believe it or not I’ve read somewhere bananas have antidepressant properties. Idealabs lapodin from personal experience, just a few drops on the wrist, and almost an instant wave of calmness comes over me, along with improved digestion.

It depends a lot on the person, and also trying to come down to the route cause of their depression and anxiety.

Also I would advice them to stay away from SSRI’s until they have atleast tried/given a chance to these natural alternatives.

Reason being, once a person gets on the prescription garbage, these are very powerful drugs, and a person can’t take any of these other natural supplements along with it because it interacts with the drugs. So you don’t really benefit from either, and just dig yourself deeper.

 

[mostlylurking]

Family member with anxiety and depression is going to ask the doctor for a prescription. Are some better than others, from a long-term health point of view?

For your consideration:

Depression, Anxiety, and the Chronically Hypoxic Brain - Hormones Matter

Abnormal thoughts, emotions and all forms of mental activity are produced by electrochemical reactions that are exaggerated by a mild degree of hypoxia or pseudo-hypoxia.

www.hormonesmatter.com

also: Neurological, Psychiatric, and Biochemical Aspects of Thiamine Deficiency in Children and Adults

My long term anxiety and depression symptoms have been resolved via high dose oral thiamine hcl. Thiamine hcl, taken orally, is considered to be a safe supplement. However, thiamine hcl taken by injection is thought to increase the chance of microclotting.

 

[A.R]

For your consideration:

Depression, Anxiety, and the Chronically Hypoxic Brain - Hormones Matter

Abnormal thoughts, emotions and all forms of mental activity are produced by electrochemical reactions that are exaggerated by a mild degree of hypoxia or pseudo-hypoxia.

www.hormonesmatter.com

also: Neurological, Psychiatric, and Biochemical Aspects of Thiamine Deficiency in Children and Adults

My long term anxiety and depression symptoms have been resolved via high dose oral thiamine hcl. Thiamine hcl, taken orally, is considered to be a safe supplement. However, thiamine hcl taken by injection is thought to increase the chance of microclotting.

I would be very careful about straight up deciding to high dose thiamine. Dr Lonsdale has a lot of information on this, and a certain protocol has to be followed along with the cofactors.

Just simply high dosing thiamine on its own is dangerous and will do more harm than good ime.

Although I agree b vitamins are extremely important (and powerful) in treating anxiety and depression.

I’ve learnt the hard way it’s better to bite the bullet and invest in Idealabs energin (although it seems expensive, a very high quality balanced supplement, free of excipients).

 

[InChristAlone]

B vitamins can increase histamine for people with undermethylation and high histamine levels.

 

[A.R]

B vitamins can increase histamine for people with undermethylation and high histamine levels.

What are the symptoms/problems a person feels with under methylation? Could you direct me to any resources where I can read more about this?

 

[InChristAlone]

What are the symptoms/problems a person feels with under methylation? Could you direct me to any resources where I can read more about this?

I'm still figuring it out, @redsun seems to have a good grasp on it, he said don't focus too much on the methylation.

 

[A.R]

I'm still figuring it out, @redsun seems to have a good grasp on it, he said don't focus too much on the methylation.

Thanks for that.

Found this thread

Studies On Histamine's Effects

I wanted to make a single thread for myself to post histamine related studies. As Peat himself is not a fan of histamine, lumping it together with things like cortisol and serotonin, I want to stick to one thread for all studies instead of posting them each as their own seperate thread in order...

raypeatforum.com

Which led me on to reading about NMDA, and then this thread

NMDA Excitotoxicity, Vitamin D, Magnesium And Copper

Got interested in neruonal cell death through NMDA activation. I think most people know magnesium is needed to block, calm down NMDA over activation. N-methyl D-aspartic acid itself is a neurotoxin. Reason why I became interested is because of people having so much problem with high dose vitamin...

raypeatforum.com

Thanks @Kingpinguin and @redsun

 

[A.R]

"A number of NMDA antagonists increase the synthesis and turnover of histamine, indicating the possibility of an (indirect) inhibitory action through NMDA receptors on TMN neurons which express the NR1, NR2A, and NR2B NMDA receptor subtypes"

 

[A.R]

“I want to emphasize that in someone that has very elevated histamine, raising histamine is obviously a not a good idea. So the kind of people that this applies to is those that are naturally very slender/underweight (meaning they stay thin without paying attention at all to food intake), have many histamine reactions and allergies and other histamine related disorders, etc...

Someone who is very thin to the point of being underweight should not do something that may further reduce bodyweight. Just to emphasize, terrible digestion and food intolerance is not due to high histamine but can be related to low histamine (though raising histamine alone may or may not fix the issue).

So we all need to be aware of ourselves and who we are and not go around lowering things that we already have too low and raising things that we already have too high. This applies to histamine, but also to everything else whatever it may be.

If you struggle with very poor cognition/very low motivation (dopamine is clearly involved in motivation as well) and/or are overweight and have trouble maintaining a normal weight because appetite is very high, consider low brain histamine. Increasing brain histamine will help reduce appetite and increase appetite control and improve cognition/motivation, libido and sexual function overall.”

 

[mostlylurking]

I would be very careful about straight up deciding to high dose thiamine. Dr Lonsdale has a lot of information on this, and a certain protocol has to be followed along with the cofactors.

Just simply high dosing thiamine on its own is dangerous and will do more harm than good ime.

Although I agree b vitamins are extremely important (and powerful) in treating anxiety and depression.

I’ve learnt the hard way it’s better to bite the bullet and invest in Idealabs energin (although it seems expensive, a very high quality balanced supplement, free of excipients).

Ray Peat quotes on thiamine: Ray Peat On Vitamin B1 - Thiamine

Peat is not a fan of ethanol. But suit yourself.

It is important to always do your own research before embarking on supplementation of anything. This goes double if you are considering giving the supplement to someone other than yourself.

 

[I'm.No.One]

How open minded is your family member?

Could check out Golden euphorics for safe access to pre-made micro doses of psilocybin.

They're very high quality/discreet.

Much safer than benzos & SSRIs.

I see a lot of folks here assuming the person is overweight, but usually anxious people under eat which mean they're not only likely severely mineral deficient but swimming in cortisol/serotonin/ramped up adrenals etc.

I was put onto benzos for my C-PTSD in my 20s, on them for a decade, it took me TWO YEARS to safely & horrendously taper off of them with liquid titration.

Fun fact, benzos cause anxiety/agoraphobia. No, seriously, it's in the pamphlet. They're not meant to be used for more than 72 hours.

Anyhow I went from being in disability because of serious anxiety to I literally never feel anxious.

1.) I began eating real food.

2.) Focused on remineralization.

3.) Faced my issues/trauma ruthlessly.

4.) Used really tiny amounts of psilocybin/amanita muscaria to help my brain shift out of the direct mode network that makes us travel down the same pathways i.e. behaviors.

If they need something to ramp them down during an attack as they face issues buy them some phenbit BUT only take 3-5mg & ONLY during an attack. People can become dependent if they start using a crap ton 24/7.