Loneliness Is The Real Cause Of Selfishness

[NathanK]

True, and maybe I needed to make that comment to process something in order to let it go and realize no one else can fulfill me.

Maybe this book can help... even in the "trapped environment" of raising children at home. There is nothing wrong with having a strong nurturing paternal instinct and Im sure it fills you with pride knowing it. But there's only so much one can give without taking back. Finding how to know your own limitations and how to regenerate your batteries healthily is about taking on the challenge of your own self development. All too often people put that responsibility of growth into the hands of others... Like govt... A spouse... Family... Religion (God helps those who help themselves)... Etc. It's not easy, and more a lifelong balance to achieve, but you can get there.

The Disease To Please: Curing the People-Pleasing Syndrome The Disease To Please: Curing the People-Pleasing Syndrome: Harriet B. Braiker: 9780071385640: Amazon.com: Books

 

[lollipop]

Here is an interesting research related to this thread:

Generosity breeds happiness and acting solely out of self interest causes people to be less happy:

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/07/170711112441.htm

@Such_Saturation - cooperative effort also brings intrinsic value not only extrinsic. That intrinsic value seems to have a large multipliers effect.

 

[GAF]

Any ideas for a supplement/labchem routine to turn a lonely self-absorbed wealthy lady and her rat into a loving generous self-less Great Lady and her rat? (She is 61. The rat is the same relative rat age).

(not joking)

 

[passivity]

I was standing on a platform waiting for the subway. There was only a couple of people scattered around, each looking at their phone, each emptily staring in front of them or far away into the tunnel, all wisely chosen strategies to protect their field of vision from other people. I was also maintaining my own little box of privacy as I stared at my own shoes, but when I looked up, my eyes met the most wonderful, warm, inviting, soul-pouring gaze ever. It was from a woman slightly older than me, but I instantly felt that I knew her. Her eyes were that of a mother I never had, a sister I never had, and of a true friend that I might never have. It felt like a mental hug. I quickly looked away, but it was too late. I felt a jarring pain in my chest, a smoky heat in my throat, and my vision was getting blurry from tears which I managed to hold in just until I boarded an empty corner of the train and pathetically cried like a lonely foreigner does.

I'll never forget that look.
I made a true friend for four seconds.

My point here is this: if one person's look had such a strong impact on a random stranger, imagine just what it would be like if we looked at each other with eyes charged with such feelings. Just my 2c and a sappy story, I guess.

 

[GAF]

One of the most basic requirements of partner dancing is being able to hold hands. After 12.5 years of paying attention to this and holding hands with hundreds of different ladies, I can say that maybe 20% know how to hold hands. Apparently, their mommy, daddy, sister or nobody ever cared enough about them to even hold their hand while walking. Draw your own conclusions...

 

[passivity]

One of the most basic requirements of partner dancing is being able to hold hands. After 12.5 years of paying attention to this and holding hands with hundreds of different ladies, I can say that maybe 20% know how to hold hands. Apparently, their mommy, daddy, sister or nobody ever cared enough about them to even hold their hand while walking. Draw your own conclusions...

 

[nikolabeacon]

This. I think this cuts to the core of the problem. If I see the world this way, and you see the world that way, and we're supposed to build something together, how do we go about it? That's the million dollar question. If my truth and your truth about how things are or should be are significantly different, or even worse, mutually exclusive, then I believe there's a One Contextual Truth that we can reach together if we start a dialectic process. This is where most people fail because they want to be right and look for validation instead of searching for answers.

Rather than looking for agreement, I think the way to go is to first look for understanding.

I am very curious, as I lack that gene in me, but why do you not only celebrate but insist on tradition so much @nikolabeacon ? You could say I'm your polar opposite as I think "**** all tradition" as long as it's in the way of progress. But then again, what's this "progress" I'm so obsessed with??? :)



I really like how you shifted into her perspective to try to understand her position, whether it all "makes sense or not." Reading Ayn Rand made me aware of the emotional components that brought her to her "selfish objectivism," which I think is quite a wonderful worldview once unpacked. But of course, it has its problems in practical application, hehe...



Could it be that you're not really looking for company or friends, but looking for something through them? It might seem like a radical statement, but I see anything beyond sharing time and space with other people solely for the pleasure of their company as a form of "using" others, and when I say using, I don't mean it as a bad thing--you could for example join groups (like this forum) where you look for intellectual stimulation from others, or interest groups where you're all centered on the same goal/pursuit/object, etc.--I'm just saying that you may want to "use" other people in ways that they don't want to be used, and they feel it.

They might feel something along the lines of "You don't really like me for being me, you just want to... fill in the blank." Most people can't even verbalize this, they simply get a feeling of not being 'seen' by you and back away. This scenario is especially likely because of your tendency to "cling" to others, and your craving for being 'seen' (recognized and validated), as you yourself described it. Do you try to see others? Who are they? Can you deeply focus on the other person in a conversation? Help them the way they want to be helped? Whatever you decide to do, that feeling that something is wrong, that something is off--please cherish it. It saved me mentally.

You should watch that video I posted because that guy explains also this part about various propaganda and and your "celebration" to some extent besides Tesla BS.

You have a living tree and a piece of wood.

As someone said "a tree without roots is just a piece of wood" . Roots are tradition and they are always developing and growing(accumulation of Real experimental holistic knowledge not some Isolated/Autistic nonsense) and are enabling more fruits( progress and improvements). People usually have wrong understanding about tradition . Its always in the process of growing , it never stops. People usually think about paleo and caveman when someone talk about tradition. When you cut the roots a tree /plant will just ROT.In majority of things traditional and ancient knowledge is much closer to truth than today Progress and Science. Tolstoy explained it very good.

If you say that about tradition than You are detached from your roots as many people are today and you are like that ..."piece of wood"... that only can be used for trashing and flying on clouds of illusory progress presented by all sorts of horrible BS propaganda machinery. People in such state aRe detached from real knowledge and are hypnotized(disabled to see the truth) and are just seeking fake BS pleasure and happiness in everything. (Hi hi ha ha culture) and are obssesed with all sort of fake progress that brings more suffering than actual real pleasure and knowledge. You are lost in that world of illusions.

 

[meatbag]

You should watch that video I posted because that guy explains also this part about various propaganda and and your "celebration" to some extent besides Tesla BS.

You have a living tree and a piece of wood.

As someone said "a tree without roots is just a piece of wood" . Roots are tradition and they are always developing and growing(accumulation of Real experimental holistic knowledge not some Isolated/Autistic nonsense) and are enabling more fruits( progress and improvements). People usually have wrong understanding about tradition . Its always in the process of growing , it never stops. People usually think about paleo and caveman when someone talk about tradition. When you cut the roots a tree /plant will just ROT.In majority of things traditional and ancient knowledge is much closer to truth than today Progress and Science. Tolstoy explained it very good.

If you say that about tradition than You are detached from your roots as many people are today and you are like that ..."piece of wood"... that only can be used for trashing and flying on clouds of illusory progress presented by all sorts of horrible BS propaganda machinery. People in such state aRe detached from real knowledge and are hypnotized(disabled to see the truth) and are just seeking fake BS pleasure and happiness in everything. (Hi hi ha ha culture) and are obssesed with all sort of fake progress that brings more suffering than actual real pleasure and knowledge. You are lost in that world of illusions.

"Those who know the rules of true wisdom are baser than those who love them. Those who love them are baser than those who follow them" Chinese Proverb excerpted from Leo Tolstoy's " A Calendar of Wisdom"

" Man must not check reason by tradition, but contrawise, must check tradition by reason"- Tolstoy

"Any departure from accepted traditions and customs requires a large and serious effort, but true understanding of new things always requires such an effort" -Tolstoy

"In order to understand the truth, you should not suppress your intellect. On the contrary, you should purify your intellect, excercise it, and intellectually try and test everything which we can possibly test." - Tolstoy

"Those who do not think independently are under the influence of somebody else who thinks for them. If you give your thoughts to someone else, it is more shameful than if you give your body to someone to possess." -Tolstoy

"Science is vitally important when it is harnessed to reveal the law of human life. In order to accept the importance of science, we must prove that this activity is useful. " "'Science' is not quite the concept which people use this word to identify; it is the highest, most important, most necessary object of our understanding." - Tolstoy

Traditions are good when they are good, but we must always be aware. It is only through experiences, intellect, and a desire for the truth over profit and control that we can keep dogmatism from over taking what is good in tradition, and inhibiting the process that allows us to mkay things better. Just because something is traditional, does not make it truthful or good; but truth and good things can be found in tradition. From your statements it is clear you accept that tradition can be improved, and I do not disagree that we must understand our past, but there is still the matter of living in the present . A present which which subject to change--sometimes to rapidly and to our detriment.

If you find truth in Gilbert Ling's work, I would urge you to also study also the works that are foundational to his discoveries. It's good to know that often times when someone goes against the status quo their name and reputation are tarnished. We must always put emphasis on the claims, rather than the person (thx tyw); and even more so when they are no longer alive or we cannot meet them. I do not disagree with your sentiments about what is being done to people; but I think you are misattributing the cause and seeing enemies where you should see companions.

 

[nikolabeacon]

@Meatbag "Just because something is traditional, does not make it truthful or good"

Did I say that?

My first comment was specifically about family not about everything.

 

[Jack Roe]

The problem with stuff like this is that it is at most 4 parts science 1 part mysticism/supernaturalism/spiritualism.

Any material understanding of perception of "good" and "bad" is going to be rooted in unceasing and unfailing acceptance of the materiality of such perceptions. So, if I perceive a long life as "good," it's not because there is some perceptible quality of "long life" that I am apprehending; it is because my nervous system has superimposed this perception over long life. Even if you say "nine times out of ten, 99% of people value long life," this at most points to a material similarity between the subjects; it does not point to any external reality that they all accurately perceive.

So even if you find that unselfish people, or people with trait X live longer/are happier, this is not objectively desirable; it's a subjective desire rooted in the particular material constitution of their bodies, which is going to in the end be describable in terms of material relations---neurotransmitter Y, cortex Z. But the perception that such a situation is "desirable," that is not a fact of the same order; it's a secondary perception, it is almost more like a perception of oneself, rather than a perception of the exterior reality.

Plenty of creatures enjoy a solitary existence; it could simply be that our nervous systems are over-developed, visavis those creatures, and this leads to perception of pain. I suspect cockroaches, which likely have _no emotional life_ that we can see at any rate, will outsurvive us all...so if "survival" is the ultimate goal, then we're already hopelessly inbred for the wrong traits.

 

[meatbag]

@Meatbag "Just because something is traditional, does not make it truthful or good"

Did I say that?

My first comment was specifically about family not about everything.

No, I was just making a point. I only have issue with your claims to specific people and theories. I sympathize with your views on family and marketing.

 

[yerrag]

One of the most basic requirements of partner dancing is being able to hold hands. After 12.5 years of paying attention to this and holding hands with hundreds of different ladies, I can say that maybe 20% know how to hold hands. Apparently, their mommy, daddy, sister or nobody ever cared enough about them to even hold their hand while walking. Draw your own conclusions...

I didn't know there's such a thing. Never been able to observe being able and being not able to hold hands while dancing. Didn't get the drill even at Arthur Murray's. Must be the key to the connection that makes you a good partner at dancing.

 

[yerrag]

I couldn't help interject this thought while on the subject of loneliness. Being that we of this forum may end up living longer lives, which I think to rightly perceive given our more open disposition to matters of health, I often would think how lonely it would be if we outlive all our childhood friends. That is what I observed with my parents, who recently passed away- my dad at 96, my mom at 93. It would seem that their friends are the lucky ones, as they did not have to be the ones to miss the good old times. Yes, there are children and grandchildren, and it is a blessing to have them around. But one finds loneliness in not being to bond in a common experience rooted in the past.

I thought, after my mom's recent passing, that it would be a good idea to start helping my friends live better in way of health. I've started reaching out to those with cancer first. It isn't easy because people look for safety in labels, and end up going the traditional medical route of chemotherapy and radiation. Those who are still healthy find it odd that I would promote something that "feeds cancer," - sugar. It is a hard place to climb. And it is a source of frustration, and yes, loneliness. The only people that are slightly convinced, and I mean slightly, are my siblings, who have seen how 10 days of my "Ray Peat" formula saved my mom, about 7 months ago, from being consigned to the hospice, on death row, so to speak.

Did it ever occur to you this forum may be the only place for long-lived Peaters to find companions in those twilight years to come? I don't know how to make of it, whether it something to be happy about, or to be lonely about?

 

[Jack Roe]

Did it ever occur to you this forum may be the only place for long-lived Peaters to find companions in those twilight years to come? I don't know how to make of it, whether it something to be happy about, or to be lonely about?

If you want to make friends and you are the sociable type, you always can---it's not as popular as it once was, but there are institutions like Churches, which in modern times, plenty, like the Episcopal Church, are basically social clubs where the priest gives an inoffensive lecture about how we should love everyone and include minorities. I am alone a lot of the time and always have been---and it has never bothered me, unless I have to be around people who are a pain to be around. When I was healthy, which unfortunately I am not now, I would go hiking by myself, travel by myself, go to concerts, movies, all sorts of things---a partner is nice for, you know, sexual reasons, I guess, but even that, it's not worth being around someone who won't let you be yourself, and the bulk of social relationships consist of people trading master/slave roles; this myth that people just "get along" is false. Two people are never going to never both want to talk at the same time, and in that case, one is going to have to submit to the other. The most you can hope for is that it's a sort of 50-50 thing when one of you says "no, go ahead."

A lot of the cause of desire is advertising, which includes what we see that isn't intended as advertising---people in groups looks happy, and group-behavior is sold as "normal" and "appropriate." In the context of churches and public education, for most of history, some form of group behavior has been mandated by law. Certainly kids are forced into school, even the ones like myself who were happy enough reading books on their own. Socialist states like the USSR and Nazi Germany are the two places where the notion of "high functioning autism" was developed, as a sort of social control on children who did not fit the typical socialist type. The idea that socialism required these children to behave in ways that were ritualistic and stereotyped, albeit taken up by most children, never even entered their field of view.

Then there is the fact that all emotion and feeling is fundamentally mediated by biochemistry. If we had legal drugs, and had a big billion dollar legit industry, millions of R&D dollars would be poured into finding drugs that made people feel good, when they wanted to feel good, without side-effects. Or take the ones we already have, like cocaine and amphetamine. Cocaine is a bit more dangerous than amphetamine, but not by much, and neither one is particularly unsafe. The behavioral changes that can occur in a minority of users are a problem, as is the cost, but, really, stimulant drugs are not dangerous; the reason they are prohibited is that a degree of misery is necessary to cause people to submit to society. Happiness is divinity is freedom; miserable people will submit to socialism because maybe if they do they will be less miserable. Happy people have no reason to submit to anything.

So, if you want to be happy in your old age, work toward drug legalization---the only hope is dope

 

[yerrag]

If you want to make friends and you are the sociable type, you always can---it's not as popular as it once was, but there are institutions like Churches, which in modern times, plenty, like the Episcopal Church, are basically social clubs where the priest gives an inoffensive lecture about how we should love everyone and include minorities. I am alone a lot of the time and always have been---and it has never bothered me, unless I have to be around people who are a pain to be around. When I was healthy, which unfortunately I am not now, I would go hiking by myself, travel by myself, go to concerts, movies, all sorts of things---a partner is nice for, you know, sexual reasons, I guess, but even that, it's not worth being around someone who won't let you be yourself, and the bulk of social relationships consist of people trading master/slave roles; this myth that people just "get along" is false. Two people are never going to never both want to talk at the same time, and in that case, one is going to have to submit to the other. The most you can hope for is that it's a sort of 50-50 thing when one of you says "no, go ahead."

A lot of the cause of desire is advertising, which includes what we see that isn't intended as advertising---people in groups looks happy, and group-behavior is sold as "normal" and "appropriate." In the context of churches and public education, for most of history, some form of group behavior has been mandated by law. Certainly kids are forced into school, even the ones like myself who were happy enough reading books on their own. Socialist states like the USSR and Nazi Germany are the two places where the notion of "high functioning autism" was developed, as a sort of social control on children who did not fit the typical socialist type. The idea that socialism required these children to behave in ways that were ritualistic and stereotyped, albeit taken up by most children, never even entered their field of view.

Then there is the fact that all emotion and feeling is fundamentally mediated by biochemistry. If we had legal drugs, and had a big billion dollar legit industry, millions of R&D dollars would be poured into finding drugs that made people feel good, when they wanted to feel good, without side-effects. Or take the ones we already have, like cocaine and amphetamine. Cocaine is a bit more dangerous than amphetamine, but not by much, and neither one is particularly unsafe. The behavioral changes that can occur in a minority of users are a problem, as is the cost, but, really, stimulant drugs are not dangerous; the reason they are prohibited is that a degree of misery is necessary to cause people to submit to society. Happiness is divinity is freedom; miserable people will submit to socialism because maybe if they do they will be less miserable. Happy people have no reason to submit to anything.

So, if you want to be happy in your old age, work toward drug legalization---the only hope is dope

Wow, you almost got me there, except for the last sentence. There are different ways to skin a cat, I guess. I'm more traditional. Otherwise, I'll buy a one-way trip to space and have an ample supply of crack.

 

[GAF]

Did it ever occur to you this forum may be the only place for long-lived Peaters to find companions in those twilight years to come? I don't know how to make of it, whether it something to be happy about, or to be lonely about?

I never thought about RPF that way but I am only 61. Nothing wrong with feeling lonely as long as we use it, eventually, as motivation to love someone or enjoy even the smallest thing.

It is a hard place to climb. And it is a source of frustration, and yes, loneliness.

People don't get it. They aren't going to get it. Their brainwashing is too complete. You cannot unscramble an egg. All I have been able to do is throw thoughts at people and on very very very rare occasions something might stick, but probably not for long. No reason to feel frustrated by other people's thoughts or actions. They probably don't even know how to hold hands with someone, so what possible hope is there for them.

 

[nikolabeacon]

@Jack Roe
"Then there is the fact that all emotion and feeling is fundamentally mediated by biochemistry. "

Maybe in Peat Paleo/cell theory.

"So, if you want to be happy in your old age, work toward drug legalization---the only hope is dope "

As you sow, so shall you reap.

 

[Jack Roe]

@Jack Roe
"Then there is the fact that all emotion and feeling is fundamentally mediated by biochemistry. "

Maybe in Peat Paleo/cell theory.

"So, if you want to be happy in your old age, work toward drug legalization---the only hope is dope "

As you sow, so shall you reap.

I think mediated is the wrong word, "identical with" is better.
If you feel happy, it's because some configuration of materials is producing that feeling; there's nothing outside of material relations.
There's no reason to think that people should focus on maintaining all sorts of "relationships" to get what can be more conveniently produced by drugs. The reason that the pleasure-causing drugs are illegal, is at least in part to keep people addicted to the idea that they must maintain certain social relations in order to feel good. It's a half-truth at best.

 

[Integra]

You should watch that video I posted because that guy explains also this part about various propaganda and and your "celebration" to some extent besides Tesla BS.

What "celebration" of mine are you talking about?

You have a living tree and a piece of wood.

As someone said "a tree without roots is just a piece of wood" . Roots are tradition and they are always developing and growing(accumulation of Real experimental holistic knowledge not some Isolated/Autistic nonsense) and are enabling more fruits( progress and improvements). People usually have wrong understanding about tradition . Its always in the process of growing , it never stops. People usually think about paleo and caveman when someone talk about tradition. When you cut the roots a tree /plant will just ROT.In majority of things traditional and ancient knowledge is much closer to truth than today Progress and Science. Tolstoy explained it very good.

Thanks for the beautiful analogy, I understand what you're using it for, except that, well, people ain't trees. ...And some plants can multiply vegetatively--you can stick a branch into the ground and it will grow its own tree--so your analogy is less than 100% on point, though beautiful.

If you say that about tradition than You are detached from your roots as many people are today and you are like that ..."piece of wood"... that only can be used for trashing and flying on clouds of illusory progress presented by all sorts of horrible BS propaganda machinery.

Yes, detached. Not used for anything, really. That's why I'm here. I'm not even trying to make a point, just learn.

People in such state aRe detached from real knowledge and are hypnotized(disabled to see the truth) and are just seeking fake BS pleasure and happiness in everything. (Hi hi ha ha culture) and are obssesed with all sort of fake progress that brings more suffering than actual real pleasure and knowledge. You are lost in that world of illusions.

Got it. I'm also curious then, opposed to what--what is, in your opinion, the opposite of "hi hi ha ha culture" and BS progress?

I'm echoing @Meatbag here, I feel the same: "From your statements it is clear you accept that tradition can be improved, and I do not disagree that we must understand our past, but there is still the matter of living in the present . A present which which subject to change--sometimes to rapidly and to our detriment."

 

[nikolabeacon]

I think mediated is the wrong word, "identical with" is better.
If you feel happy, it's because some configuration of materials is producing that feeling; there's nothing outside of material relations.
There's no reason to think that people should focus on maintaining all sorts of "relationships" to get what can be more conveniently produced by drugs. The reason that the pleasure-causing drugs are illegal, is at least in part to keep people addicted to the idea that they must maintain certain social relations in order to feel good. It's a half-truth at best.

Whenever I see someone talk about materialism in such a manner first thing that comes to my mind is that a person is lacking a few IQ's or is ignorant or both. Of course that everything is matter or energy but I think your "dope" disabled you to be open and honest when it comes to understanding of things. We are not living under the glass bell. That's first.You learned that part from Peat because he can mentally contemplate that as a "material" evidence that it's like that. Oh Yes it's identical process but it just the the thing that we have no clue(and will never have) how to measure various SYNERGYSTIC influences/impacts from our environment and whole cosmos(synergy between nutrition, lifestyle, all environment,sun, stars, planets etc). So in "theory" yes everything is material but it's just the thing that synergystic circumstances and personal limitations from circumstances will never allow us to fragmentize all synergystic processes/impacts and interactions into single reactions and molecules. And when you can't do that you must call it "spiritual" or Devine (imposible to understand and comperhend) and that also is just one proof that ancients(traditions ) were much closer to Truth about Cosmos(Devine law or God) than today's Science(and Peat theory).Ray Peat A Thomas Kuhn Reader?

Most Scientists 'can't Replicate Studies By Their Peers'