Log Of Curious Events

[Bluebell]

I think that menopause and post-menopause is a time when a woman can come into a state of great power, of the kind that sets her free but also is of great use to society and her extended family/friends.

 

[Swandattur]

Could be, as long as a woman stays healthy!

 

[Swandattur]

Bluebell, My sister is interested in dream interpretation. She told me she had a dream in which my mom and all of us sisters were some sort of powerful cosmological beings. In the dream my mom was off wreaking havoc across the galaxy or universe and we were preparing to go stop her rampage. Not sure about the interpretation there, but in this dream, we were powerful. She is my youngest sister at 50. I guess we are all of us trying to find ourselves in different ways.

 

[messtafarian]

That's right. As long as she stays healthy. I am not upset about menopause; and I am not all that concerned about whether I am underappreciated -- at least not anymore. However -- high blood pressure, a thyroid nodule and pernicious anemia have got me kind of bummed out. You need good health and steady energy to turn 50.

 

[Swandattur]

Yeah, it's not a good time for poor diet or added stress. Hard to get around the stress, though, unfortunately.

 

[ilovethesea]

I think the real issue comes up when people demand and expect support but it's repeatedly not reciprocated. This is a standard situation for women in the midst of raising families when the survival of progeny hangs in the balance. But then the dynamics get stuck and whoever else is hanging around looks to this woman and she is a little tired of it. I am really only talking about the lives of women in a particular context -- life is certainly more complex that that. But the sense of being depleted emotionally has an accompanying physical component if it goes on too long. That sense of depletion in my opinion has to be addressed before anything else; before she gets over it or bounces back or marches on or whatever. Because -- her reason for continuing has to be re-established. A deep investigation of purpose is the real meaning of depression.

As far as I'm concerned I think the people in my life have made their statements. People don't really change that much and longstanding dynamics don't either. It's just up to me to respond. I'll get around to it. I'm just a little tired right now. The way depression lifts is when you get curious about something new. :)

I hear you on this, but I also feel that many women (and men, too) fail to negotiate properly in the early stages of a relationship before marriage and children come along. Then as time goes on they realize they sold themselves short and often blame the other party which is unfair. Of course, relationships and circumstances change as time goes on as well.

By negotiate I mean making sure you are on the same page about time, space, money and "play" instead of jumping in blind and getting bonded. The good news is it's never too late to start self-care and by doing that a lot of your relationships can change for the better, even if it means some need to fall by the wayside.

 

[ilovethesea]

Ilovethesea, one thing I see wrong with this notion is that it seems like he's talking about making women subservient in the old fashioned way, so that as long as a guy is making money, the wife must be happy. Anyway, maybe this whole protective thing is a trait shared equally by men and women as in the personality types.

Not at all. It's the opposite of subservient actually and doesn't have a lot to do with money. It comes down to the cherishing of her feelings, that he puts them above his own. In return the feminine person gives back in the form of respect for his thoughts, ideas, wants, etc. She shows him her appreciation and brings happiness and fun.

I feel the word respect has negative connotations but it's more about letting him lead. The key is to be with a man whose lead you can respect, though. If you want to lead and think you're smarter/better than him then it would never work.

 

[ilovethesea]

On the Roseanne Barr post, maybe she was portraying a woman who had enough progesterone to balance other hormones at that time of the month.

On the other subject, men do seem to be generally very sensitive to any implied criticism or affront to their dignity. Maybe that's just some men, though. I guess my sons don't seem that way. My dad isn't either. I guess it's just my husband, and I hear stories about men being excessively sensitive that way.

Excessively implies that it's a bad thing. Part of the problem why the dynamics between the sexes are so messed up these days is because women don't understand or respect men's nature.

Pat's work is based a lot on Carl Jung and she describes it as yin (feminine) and yang (masculine). Women are yin on the outside but yang on the inside. They are the spiritual leaders. That is also what gives us the strength to recover from heartbreak, pain and loss.

Men on the other hand are yang on the outside but have yin souls. That is part of our attraction to men in general and why they are more sensitive than we are to criticism, lack of respect, etc. They actually hurt much deeper than we do.

 

[Swandattur]

Yes, my husband always liked being the captain of the ship, but he often totally dismissed my feelings about things. I really needed to stage a one woman mutiny and stick him in a lifeboat.
He was very sensitive of any hint of criticism even when no criticism was meant. Yet, he ran roughshod over my feelings. He could be very oblivious. The only thing that ever got his attention was if I happened to cry, but not much changed. Still, maybe I should have deliberately employed crying to get his attention.
I'll have to ask my Dad about Carl Jung's take on this, since he has read a lot of Carl Jung's work.

 

[Swandattur]

Not feeling so hot. It is sometimes very disheartening not being able to find much to eat at the grocery store. I tried drinking tea instead of coffee this morning, because I thought coffee might be hard on my digestive tract. My mood started a down turn a few days ago, and it's worse today. I had gone off my Wellbutrin four weeks ago and my mood had been better than on it. Not now, though. Maybe coffee has been acting as an antidepressant. It feels like My mood started to change when the light started looking like fall. I did take a Wellbutrin XL today with no seeming affect. Strange, because taking Bupropion, a generic of Wellbutrin, a few days ago really revved me up.
I have met some nice people on this forum and the other RP forum, but maybe I'm not very good at forums. I feel upset or wistful that People can get off, and I probably would never know what happened to them. Probably, they just get busy doing other things or just follow along silently or go their own route with health even if following RP. I know it's silly, but I am very moody. Wellbutrin may make me more that way. Chances are, I'll feel better tomorrow, or after a while. The wistful sad feeling about people used to happen when I used to take walks or ride a bike around our small town. It really bothered me that I knew nothing about the people who lived in most of those houses. Maybe that's what "The Beatles" were talking about by "All the Lonely People." Maybe feeling that way is just a symptom of depression. Or a symptom of the modern world.
I guess I tend to say too much or the wrong thing. TMI of a sort. Well, my two sons just arrived for a short visit. So, I will get off and talk to them. Maybe that will perk me up.

 

[messtafarian]

Swandattur:

I want to tell you that I am not a big fan of wellbutrin or buproprion. I'm noting that you were off it for four weeks and then took some today.

What I really feel like saying is GET OFF THAT STUFF. Please understand I'm just some woman on the internet, right now typing on a laptop on a cheap mattress at my parents' house as a matter of fact, but even so I personally believe that Well/Bup actually creates schizophrenics. At least until the patient gets over both the blood plasma level of the drug and the ensuing addiction.

If you were able to go for four weeks without it, please try another four weeks and then another eight weeks and then the rest of your life. Messing with serotonin is bad: messing with dopamine is way, way worse.

 

[Swandattur]

I've actually been on it and quite a few other antidepressants plus Zyprexa, plus Adderall all together and some separate. I've had three serious major depressions. I've been on the Wellbutrin for about fifteen years now. I did get off the other stuff a while back. I had ECT on the last major depression. It worked great for about two weeks. I had quite a bit of memory loss then, I think. I can't remember being in the hospital at all, except for this odd dream sequence about being in the hospital. It took a year to get over the worst of that depression. So, I get scared when that threatens to come back. Of course, it kinda comes back here and there all the time. I guess most people on this forum are dealing with some very difficult health issues. I have flirted with getting off this time and one other time a few months ago for about a month each time. At this point I wonder if it might be causing some of the problems I have. On the other hand it can always get worse.
Do you have personal experience with Wellbutrin or know somebody who had a bad reaction?
How are things going for you? Hope the cheap mattress isn't too uncomfortable. I remember one at my parents house which was exactly as my dad described it, "Like wet bread dough." :)

 

[messtafarian]

:) yeah I was on wellbutrin 15 years ago for about three weeks. I went bananas and started hallucinating, couldn't breathe right and believed all sorts of odd things, for example that Michael Landon was following me around to my classes and following me on the train ( he was in fact dead by then), and that the sparkles on the lakewater were in fact God giving me important information about my future.

It took me twice as long to get off it as I was on it.

Whoever put that stuff into the drug pool for common "depression" was clearly insane. There are strategies to titrate off that will potentially not have you either still battling depression or returning to the drug to get relief.

I don't mind the cheap mattress. Feels like home to me :)

 

[Swandattur]

The depression I had was torture..It was a totally different thing from ordinary bad moods. In a way, it must be like a psychosis. I was willing to do anything to get rid of it.
I know any of the anti-depressants can cause crazy stuff like you experienced. People in my family have had some bad trips on anti-depressants. It seems like they surely could have found some better treatments by now. Maybe putting someone in a kind, caring, supportive environment would be better, but our world doesn't work that way. At any rate, they shouldn't be handing it out to people for milder forms of depression or mood disturbances. Really, it seems like they should monitor people going on them instead of sending them home with a bottle of pills that are going to make things worse long before they ever get better.

I may try now to keep off the Wellbutrin, or I may get back on for a while, and try again later. If I decide to stay off, I believe I won't try the coffee withdrawal at the same time. It just gave be a little acid reflux the other morning, and I thought, well, what if it is too hard on my digestive tract? It must have something very different from tea, because tea just doesn't substitute at all. I used to drink iced tea a lot and it gave me a lift, but it doesn't work in place of my two cups of coffee in the morning.

I'm glad your parents' home feels comforting. That's a very nice thing! Thanks for talking to me about this.

 

[messtafarian]

I really believe that the kind of depression you're talking about - and really any depression -- starts with physiology, not "brain chemicals." I never really believed in"brain chemicals" but like most women at some point when the hormones start behaving differently and the stress of life becomes difficult, I got handed the pills. I've tried these things a couple times, feeling either no effect or frank psychosis.

I wonder if you've read this article by Ray Peat?

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/se ... sion.shtml

If you feel better on Wellbutrin, you might try adding a LOT of sugar to your diet. Sugar raises dopamine, possibly much more effectively and safely.

 

[Swandattur]

Depression for me was like the bottom dropped out. Frightening. I became suicidal, because I was feeling desperate to get away from the torture going on inside my head. Thinking about it was the only small amount of relief I had. I do think, though, that it has to do with metabolism being messed up. I think these days any SSRI would make me depressed, because the few I tried in more recent years did do that. I kind of wonder if the SSRI I was on when my last major depression hit was the cause of the depression. I think it's a good idea to talk about depression, and share experiences of it, in order to try to understand it better. The people who have had it could probably sort out some things about it better than researchers who don't really know what it's like.

 

[HDD]

I really believe that the kind of depression you're talking about - and really any depression -- starts with physiology, not "brain chemicals." I never really believed in"brain chemicals" but like most women at some point when the hormones start behaving differently and the stress of life becomes difficult, I got handed the pills. I've tried these things a couple times, feeling either no effect or frank psychosis.

I wonder if you've read this article by Ray Peat?

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/se ... sion.shtml

If you feel better on Wellbutrin, you might try adding a LOT of sugar to your diet. Sugar raises dopamine, possibly much more effectively and safely.

I agree with you, messtafarian. It is way too coincidental that my son is dealing with panic/anxiety/depression on the heels of cystic acne treatment/puberty along with my health history and the health history of other family members. Not to mention the number of family (my side and husband's) that are on antidepressants.


"Although Freud expressed the thought that biological causes and cures would eventually be found, the profession he founded was not sympathetic to the idea of physiological therapies.

Looking for general physiological problems behind the various symptoms is very different from the practice of classifying the insanities according to their symptoms and the hypothetical “brain chemicals” that are believed to “cause the symptoms.”
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/th ... ties.shtml

I am sorry you aren't feeling well, Swan. Do you track your temperature and pulse? I woke up early morning with negative thoughts yesterday and wondered if I had not had enough to eat before bed. I also had a lot of stomach upset the day/night before. This has come to my attention a few times since I have been eating to increase metabolism. I mean that I notice a difference in my thinking. Salt may be something else that might help.

 

[HDD]

Depression for me was like the bottom dropped out. Frightening. I became suicidal, because I was feeling desperate to get away from the torture going on inside my head. Thinking about it was the only small amount of relief I had. I do think, though, that it has to do with metabolism being messed up. I think these days any SSRI would make me depressed, because the few I tried in more recent years did do that. I kind of wonder if the SSRI I was on when my last major depression hit was the cause of the depression. I think it's a good idea to talk about depression, and share experiences of it, in order to try to understand it better. The people who have had it could probably sort out some things about it better than researchers who don't really know what it's like.

Yes, I think the SSRI's my son has been on has contributed to suicidal thoughts. Very scary for you and anyone dealing with that.

 

[4peatssake]

I was fortunate to only take an ssri (zoloft) for 3 weeks, many years ago. I knew immediately the cure was much, much worse than the problem it was intended to solve.

This information is staggering.

ssristories

 

[Swandattur]

HD, I'm sorry your son has depression. My older son has had depression since he was about ten years old, although I didn't know it until he was older than that. He is on anti-depressants. Lately he's doing pretty well; he is out canoeing in the Ocala Forest today. He really likes outdoor activities like that.
Yes, the negative thoughts often start soon after awakening. What seems odd is that just getting up and walking into another room improves my mood, but if I lay back down, they're back. I do try eating something, but I can't have dairy without having allergy symtoms develop. So, food choices are limited.
I was on the SSRI for five years before becoming depressed. Maybe it was the combination of the med. and getting that much older that caused it, plus not getting good sleep, possibly.

4petes, thanks for the input. I will look at the link.

Sorry if I end up telling more than anyone would like to hear. Maybe it's a combination of hormonal ups and downs and being too isolated.

My younger son has mostly been interested in becoming a doctor since he was a kid. He told me today that most of the other students in the premed program at his university don't even seem to like science and don't seem interested in helping people. They seem to be after prestige. So, he says that makes him want to be in the medical field all the more, because he is interested in science and helping people. He does tend to think outside the box and see through to the truth of things.