Log Of Curious Events

J

j.

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Swandattur said:
J, Well, I understand being upset about that idea, because it really upset me when my husband said I should be happy as long as he was happy. That was a long time ago, but it stuck in my head.

I wasn't upset, I was just saying that taking care of others isn't really my source of happiness.
 
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Swandattur

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Ilovethesea, I was thinking about what you said about a woman not being happy in the protector role if the guy she was with gave it to her by default. My sister had a situation sort of like that in a way. From a child she tried to be like our mom who was a take charge kind of person. I mean in our family my mom is like the captain of the ship with my Dad being say the science officer/ backup security guy. My sister has now realized she isn't really that tough. Of course, neither is my mom as tough as the front she puts up. She's tough, but she feels things deeply. My sister married a guy who is pretty sensitive and extremely intelligent. They get along great most of the time, but sometimes my sister is forced to deal with something she really wishes her husband was up to handling. She realizes he is sensitive and appreciates all he does, so she only hopes he will pitch in and help her do the unnerving job neither really has the nerve for.

I was thinking about the time I was staying in my Grandma's old house out in the country. My little boy and I were there alone while my husband was working in Alaska. In the middle of the night someone came to the door and started knocking in this weird monotonous way. I went down stairs with the revolver in my hand, and peeked around to see who the heck was knocking like that in the middle of the night. It was this zoned out looking woman. She looked drugged. This was before cell phones, so I slipped across to the phone table and called... Not the police, but my mom! I didn't know about calling the police. I wasn't really worried about the girl at the door. I was worried about who might be with her. I thought my mom might call the police, but instead she came over with her little dachshund and her gun. She found these guys in a car outside the house. One was the son of a man who had been a friend of the family. He was after money for drugs. They all left after my mom talked to him and I had no more trouble with them. My dad may have been home or he may have been away, but we try not to involve my dad in these sorts of things, because he's like a berserker. You don't want to get him going unless things are really bad.
 
J

j.

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You call the police, you might get shot by accident. They're fairly incompetent.
 
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Swandattur

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Yeah, I wasn't too sure about it. If you know who they are and trust them, it's okay, but I wasn't sure.
 

messtafarian

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Well. What I was trying to say in my response, really, is that emotional issues are inextricably linked to health, and there is a moment in life -- an intersection in a woman's life -- where she has to create a new relationship with her own gender identity because the hormonal pump that animated those behaviors is gone. It's really time for a rethink on pretty much all fronts. So...for example...you look outside at this person who is driving the lawnmower around in the middle of the night, maybe, and you go...what am I doing here? Why is this man driving around out there when I am completely isolated and on meds and depressed? And the reason you are asking this question is because the hormonal picture has changed and the environment just isn't as tolerable as it used to be. A disconnect like that *could* be the foundation for a serious illness; because feeling disoriented in your own life; and being unable to correct *that* imbalance can be a nearly unbearable source of stress.

What I'm saying is that these are real things, and they truly impact health. Especially your closest and most primary relationships can impact your health with tremendous force.
 
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Swandattur

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Oh, I agree with you completely! When I went through menopause my feelings about things changed. I wondered why I put up with some of the stuff I did put up with. It haunted me. Also, as you say, I no longer had the hormones that supported tolerating these kinds of things. Maybe women's hormones are set up that way in order for them to stick raising children in circumstances that may not be the best. It's like you hit menopause, and suddenly you ask yourself why am I doing this. I mean lots more than than you were before.
It is pretty crazy making living with someone who acts, well, crazy, a good part of the time. At first my family didn't seem to see it. Then later they did, and seemed to think I could somehow do something about it, which I couldn't. I felt pretty abandoned. I agree it is a source of extreme stress. I'm sure it's been the major factor in my health problems.

I guess your problem is those around you seem blind to how you feel. That can make you feel very lonely. The big thing is that it is disorienting to have those who should care not acting as if they care. Is there some way you could get this across to at least one of these guys in your life?
 
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Swandattur

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messtafarian, actually, you are the first person who has ever seemed to understand what this situation is like. My parents and sisters just didn't even get it for the longest time that my husband wasn't doing very well. They didn't seem to understand how stressful it all was. Finally, they did get that he was having serious issues, but then they kind of expected me to take care of it. I guess they had their own problems, but it would have been nice to get more support. Maybe they were unable to, though.
 

messtafarian

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I think the real issue comes up when people demand and expect support but it's repeatedly not reciprocated. This is a standard situation for women in the midst of raising families when the survival of progeny hangs in the balance. But then the dynamics get stuck and whoever else is hanging around looks to this woman and she is a little tired of it. I am really only talking about the lives of women in a particular context -- life is certainly more complex that that. But the sense of being depleted emotionally has an accompanying physical component if it goes on too long. That sense of depletion in my opinion has to be addressed before anything else; before she gets over it or bounces back or marches on or whatever. Because -- her reason for continuing has to be re-established. A deep investigation of purpose is the real meaning of depression.

As far as I'm concerned I think the people in my life have made their statements. People don't really change that much and longstanding dynamics don't either. It's just up to me to respond. I'll get around to it. I'm just a little tired right now. The way depression lifts is when you get curious about something new. :)
 
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Swandattur

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Yes, if certain people have repeatedly ignored pleas for support, then they probably aren't going to suddenly turn around and give it. An exception would be If they had been going through some problem of their own that prevented them from responding. Then maybe there would be a change once they were in better shape themselves. Of course, it sounds like this exception is not the case in your situation. As far as my family is concerned, I guess almost all of them have been having some difficulties, some pretty serious, and I've tried to be there for them. I try to not to feel too let down that they seemed not so supportive of me.

It sounds like you have come to a conclusion about your situation and once you are feeling up to it, will act to on it. I hope things work out well for you and you find new interests in life. It does sound to me like it is time for you to start taking good care of yourself and let those grown up guys take care of themselves. They have probably been way too dependent on you.
 

ilovethesea

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j. said:
ilovethesea said:
By taking care of I mean the instinct in general to protect, provide and cherish women, children and animals. Not specifically someone who is miserable.

I guess it's hard for me to see that as important, since it seems to me that in modern society there aren't that many dangers, so that a lot of people, male and female, might not need any protection.

Again, it's not about someone who is specifically miserable or in danger. It is a general instinct to take care of business, to fix things, to lead.

Of course, there are masculine woman who would not want that and feminine men who would rather be taken care of themselves. The important thing is that each party is clear and comfortable in their roles. Otherwise, you de-ball the man or the woman harbours resentment. I'm sure we all know couples where that is happening.
 

ilovethesea

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j. said:
Funny, I see today's society as seeing boys and males as trash.

You're not wrong. Men need respect and they don't get much from women these days. That is key to this whole protecting, providing, cherishing thing - a man isn't going to do that for a woman who is fighting with him for control and busting his balls. Pat talks about this a lot in the book. In fact, men are more sensitive than women.
 

Bluebell

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messtafarian said:
Well. What I was trying to say in my response, really, is that emotional issues are inextricably linked to health, and there is a moment in life -- an intersection in a woman's life -- where she has to create a new relationship with her own gender identity because the hormonal pump that animated those behaviors is gone. It's really time for a rethink on pretty much all fronts. So...for example...you look outside at this person who is driving the lawnmower around in the middle of the night, maybe, and you go...what am I doing here? Why is this man driving around out there when I am completely isolated and on meds and depressed? And the reason you are asking this question is because the hormonal picture has changed and the environment just isn't as tolerable as it used to be. A disconnect like that *could* be the foundation for a serious illness; because feeling disoriented in your own life; and being unable to correct *that* imbalance can be a nearly unbearable source of stress.

What I'm saying is that these are real things, and they truly impact health. Especially your closest and most primary relationships can impact your health with tremendous force.

That's so very interesting.

So what would happen, I wonder, if the woman in those circumstances took progest-e for example? Would that change her emotional state, wind it back to an earlier stage again?

Would that be good for her, or not?
 
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Swandattur

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Messtafarian put it very well. That is exactly what I felt, too. As if suddenly I woke up and I didn't feel quite the same. I love my children very much, of course. No change there. I just felt different and less able or willing to tolerate things my husband did. If he did something that I used to just feel hurt about or try to talk to him about, I would get really angry and tell him off pulling no punches. Of course, there was that one time in the past where I threatened to chop him into little pieces with a machete... I must have been premenstrual on that occasion.
 
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Swandattur

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Roseanne Barr did a skit in which she portrayed herself as being more decisive and assertive during the premenstrual interval. Everyone was acting like she was being unreasonable and out of control, but actually she was just being effective.
 
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Swandattur

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Ilovethesea, one thing I see wrong with this notion is that it seems like he's talking about making women subservient in the old fashioned way, so that as long as a guy is making money, the wife must be happy. Anyway, maybe this whole protective thing is a trait shared equally by men and women as in the personality types.
 
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Swandattur

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J., Maybe it is the lousy state of affairs these days where many people can't find a good job to support even themselves, let alone a family, that demoralizes both young men and women.
 
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Swandattur

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Curious event log entry: I think the 150 bupropion I took yesterday had considerably more active ingredient than the other two I took on previous days. Yesterday I felt more and more wired, and then I was too hyper to sleep, until dawn. There was some physical sign, too that seemed like I had taken too much. So, not taking any bupropion or Wellbutrin today. I might try taking Wellbutrin XL sort of on again, off again, and see how that works out. My psychiatrist wouldn't let me go on a smaller dose before. So, I have to figure something out myself.
 
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Swandattur

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Maybe once children are grown, it is an advantage for women to become more independent. At that point in a primitive world, a grandma could help her family more by being more proactive, perhaps. Just a thought.
 
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Swandattur

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CELEntry: The other day I noticed the light had changed. Even if it is not fall yet, the light looks that way. I seemed to have a change of mood with that. I still have that fall feeling.
 
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Swandattur

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On the Roseanne Barr post, maybe she was portraying a woman who had enough progesterone to balance other hormones at that time of the month.

On the other subject, men do seem to be generally very sensitive to any implied criticism or affront to their dignity. Maybe that's just some men, though. I guess my sons don't seem that way. My dad isn't either. I guess it's just my husband, and I hear stories about men being excessively sensitive that way.
 
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