LLight redpill me on water please

[LLight]

What symptoms are you experiencing?

Regarding copper:
- Quite a few white hairs when I'm only in my 30s.
- "Chronic fatigue" (never been a sever CFS case but lacking energy and endurance).
- I would also say lack of motivation.

I've begun taking copper since last week and saw a rather drastic increase in energy/stamina (one other thing is my concentration ability/thinking/word recall seems really better) and it wasn't even near what I believe is a high dose (like 0.6mg a day). I think it's the most noticable effect I had from all supplements I tried.
Let's see what happens on the long term.

 

[TheSir]

Regarding copper:
- Quite a few white hairs when I'm only in my 30s.
- "Chronic fatigue" (never been a sever CFS case but lacking energy and endurance).
- I would also say lack of motivation.

I've begun taking copper since last week and saw a rather drastic increase in energy/stamina (one other thing is my concentration ability/thinking/word recall seems really better) and it wasn't even near what I believe is a high dose (like 0.6mg a day). I think it's the most noticable effect I had from all supplements I tried.
Let's see what happens on the long term.

Were you supplementing with lots of zinc in the past or what do you think could've caused this? Are the white lunulas in your fingers small/nonexistent?
I've been suspecting this on myself too... the local grocery store didn't have any copper supplements on the shelf so haven't got the chance to test the hypothesis out yet.

 

[andrew81]

I did/do both water restriction and dry fasting. Still trying to find the optimal way. I think it's possible I've been copper deficient since a long time and it did impact the results of my fasts and other experiences I did related to water. Some people got health improvements without fasting and it's possible that it's the optimal thing to do, I'm not dogmatic with respect to fasting or anything (I try to at least). This is a good question for which I don't necessarily have an answer as it might be specific to the person.

As you ask me to give my opinion, here it is: I tend to see short dry fasts (I would classify 14h as short even if I know it is pretty extended for almost anyone, I'm not judging) as good for metabolic health (e.g. increasing stomach acid pH or activating transcription factor that helps digestion, lipid metabolism or detoxification) and circadian rhythms and I thus believe it's optimal if it's done everyday.

I tend to see prolonged dry fasts (let's say more than 2 days) as being helpful for acute infections or able to reset some things in the body (e.g allowing antidiuretic hormones levels to increase to normal levels, which is a strong hypothesis, or powerful detoxification/purification of the liver, which for example happened to the former user TheBeard).

Thank you !

Also is there any way to increase osmolytes within cells , since that seems to be the whole goal .

 

[LLight]

Were you supplementing with lots of zinc in the past or what do you think could've caused this? Are the white lunulas in your fingers small/nonexistent?

Not really in the past, but I did rather recently in preparation of my prolonged dry fast, like 30mg a day. Ironicaly, I caught a cold (with a positive Covid test) during this supplementation period right before my fast.

Since a long time, I tended to eat more meat than average people but I'm not sure it could explain a copper deficiency.

Otherwise, I don't know what could be the cause, I may have a genetic peculiarity.

Regarding my lunulas, I can directly see the ones on my thumbs but not really on other fingers. Does it mean something special?

 

[LLight]

Thank you !

Also is there any way to increase osmolytes within cells , since that seems to be the whole goal .

Besides water restriction, I'm not sure.
I saw that a derivative of aspirin do have this property in plants but in the human body I have no idea.

 

[TheSir]

Regarding my lunulas, I can directly see the ones on my thumbs but not really on other fingers. Does it mean something special?

Mine are like that too, in addition they become fainter when I'm stressed and more solid when I'm feeling good. Someone on Reddit argued that absent lunulas could be used as a biomarker for potential copper deficiency.

 

[LLight]

Someone on Reddit argued that absent lunulas could be used as a biomarker for potential copper deficiency.

Interesting!

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

How chronical was your fasting?

I started with 16/8 feeding windows. I moved to OMAD when 16/8 wasn’t helping with energy or weightloss.

I got to where I did a full day fast once a week.

I started doing extended fasts as well, with various dry fasts and water fasts (dry fast is easier for sure).

Did you not expect that fasting would be unable to pre-emptively prevent future problems stemming from continued bodily abuse?

If you’re saying fasting is continued bodily abuse, I agree. and, if you read carefully, I was not describing future new problems, but that future elevated estrogen/cortisol problems arose, that were most definitely caused by fasting (as the sources I posted above showed)

There is only so much any treatment modality can do in the long term unless the ongoing bodily abuse, the root cause of the ailment in question, is addressed. I'm sure you are aware of this, hence I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.

I’m not saying the treatment failed because i failed to address the fundamental problem, I’m saying using estrogen and cortisol to lower inflammation, cannot be done in tandem with the effort of also lowering them (which I’m now doing today) - and, if you're following much of the Peat perspective and research, the stress hormones that are elevated, are exacerbating most health issues! Most people who think they heal a joint pain with fasting, are simply elevating estrogen and cortisol, and this lowers inflammation at the injury site... cutting off down-line health to experience some present benefits to keep going - which is precisely required in a daily life or death scenario in the wilderness filled with predators from which we came...

Any idea why this happened? Cortisol, PUFA?

low blood sugar causes floaters.

Pardon my nitpicking, but anything that all ancients across time and place did would most definitely and most necessarily be guaranteed to be optimal. These are things that we regard as optimal even today: socializing, eating, sleeping, working, worshiping. How fasting fits into this picture, I presently can't say.

is running from an apex predator without stopping to eat for 48 hours optimal? it's necessary, and the benefits of elevated estrogen and cortisol in such a scenario is understood, but it's far from optimal. it would be best to cultivate a strong community of safety and safe food sources - which was done wherever possible, and most people other than the religious elites would engage in such extreme activities... 3 square meals a day came from a time and place in Europe, Latin America, or SE Asia, where we've seen some examples of longest lifespans - and that's consistent with most agrarian societies... but, of course, after 400 generations of bread and water metropolis's in Rome or India, where avg lifespans could seriously look like 60 years or less, certain medical practices arose from observed phenomena (like short term benefits of elevated cortisol/estrogen as described), and they would prescribe it.

Pardon my nitpicking, but anything that all ancients across time and place did would most definitely and most necessarily be guaranteed to be optimal. These are things that we regard as optimal even today: socializing, eating, sleeping, working, worshiping. How fasting fits into this picture, I presently can't say.

Well, except human sacrifice and fasting

 

[LLight]

I’m saying using estrogen and cortisol to lower inflammation, cannot be done in tandem with the effort of also lowering them (which I’m now doing today) - and, if you're following much of the Peat perspective and research, the stress hormones that are elevated, are exacerbating most health issues!

How do you explain skin and digestion improvements, better sleep, hormonal improvements (multiple testimonies of women fixing their period issues), lowered anxiety and depression? Is this all due to the stress hormones?

Another example, ramadan fasting (there are lots of changes during Ramadan but fasting might be the most drastic one) seems to increase the gastric acid and the digestive enzymes quantity. Can you explain the role of cortisol and estrogen in this?

 

[ursidae]

Regarding copper:
- Quite a few white hairs when I'm only in my 30s.
- "Chronic fatigue" (never been a sever CFS case but lacking energy and endurance).
- I would also say lack of motivation.

I've begun taking copper since last week and saw a rather drastic increase in energy/stamina (one other thing is my concentration ability/thinking/word recall seems really better) and it wasn't even near what I believe is a high dose (like 0.6mg a day). I think it's the most noticable effect I had from all supplements I tried.
Let's see what happens on the long term.

what form and brand?

 

[LLight]

what form and brand?

It's a french brand named "Granions" and I think it's elemental copper. I didn't really tried to get the better supplement I could get, I just wanted to be able to "experiment" quickly ?

 

[TheSir]

I started with 16/8 feeding windows. I moved to OMAD when 16/8 wasn’t helping with energy or weightloss.

I got to where I did a full day fast once a week.

I started doing extended fasts as well, with various dry fasts and water fasts (dry fast is easier for sure).

That sounds extreme. I'm not surprised that you got the outcome you did.

if you read carefully, I was not describing future new problems

Indeed. You said that fasting alleviated some problems which then came back years later. That is to say that fasting temporarily compensated for whatever was causing these problems, no? Since this original cause was not eliminated, the problems eventually came back. The root causality of the problem in question would thus have no relation to fasting in itself, even if the consequences of fasting eventually exacerbated these problems.

is running from an apex predator without stopping to eat for 48 hours optimal?

Forget optimal, is it realistic? In the wild, chases tend to take only a brief while. How often do our fellow primates end up having to run away from predators for even an hour at one go?

low blood sugar causes floaters.

I could see that. I have always reacted strongly to low blood sugar and have lamented my numerous floaters.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

How do you explain skin

Anti-inflammatory effects of estrogen, or reducing digestive irritant foods.

and digestion improvements,

Reducing consumption of digestive irritant food that one cannot digest well eliminates the reaction to said food.

better sleep,

Removing foods one digests poorly improves IBS symptoms, which improves sleep. This is temporary at best, because over a period of weeks or months of IF or worse fasting techniques, elevated cortisol and aldosterone literally cause insomnia.

hormonal improvements (multiple testimonies of women fixing their period issues),

An internet testimony without a yearly follow up… for many, many women, as well as men like myself, get long term hormonal issues from chronically elevated estrogen and cortisol.

lowered anxiety and depression?

This is a temporary benefit of elevated adrenaline. It wears off after a few months. Been there.

Is this all due to the stress hormones?

Yes.

Another example, ramadan fasting (there are lots of changes during Ramadan but fasting might be the most drastic one) seems to increase the gastric acid and the digestive enzymes quantity. Can you explain the role of cortisol and estrogen in this?

These benefits can be described, again, by lowering toxic food consumption. Middle easterners are high bread consumers. They also live shorter lives than Other cultures.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

That sounds extreme. I'm not surprised that you got the outcome you did.

what kind of fasting are you advocating? I started very slowly, and learned of OMAD later on. 16/8 is a very benign way of fasting, which practically every fasting advocate advocates as a minimum. It’s about as bad as Ramadan. These are simply a sum total of types of fasting I attempted over a 1.5 year period. You don’t know the frequency or the when, of my fasting.

Indeed. You said that fasting alleviated some problems which then came back years later. That is to say that fasting temporarily compensated for whatever was causing these problems, no? Since this original cause was not eliminated, the problems eventually came back. The root causality of the problem in question would thus have no relation to fasting in itself, even if the consequences of fasting eventually exacerbated these problems.

Well… you accidentally ceded my point:
no claim of fasting curing anything, is true, and it’s a bandaid of anti-inflammatory hormones that will do nothing but alleviate symptoms temporarily…

Forget optimal, is it realistic? In the wild, chases tend to take only a brief while. How often do our fellow primates end up having to run away from predators for even an hour at one go?

I was trying to make a point, not trying to flesh out scenarios. In reality, if one out-ran / survived a predator attack, he could still be 4 hours from camp, where surplus calories are available. More realistically, look up existing tribes today like the Hadza. They are gone on a hunt for a whole day, and then engaging the hunt they have to run, and they can go without eating for up to a day. Something like intermittent fasting by necessity is very normal in a tribal scenario.

I forget all the scenarios, but they were what was used by fasting advocates.

Native Americans could be on a slow-pace jog for a day before they caught up to a wounded big game.

The hadza are also much smaller than westerners, even tho they eat a basically Peaty diet.
They also don’t live as long as westerners, and those who reach old age, reach 70s.

I could see that. I have always reacted strongly to low blood sugar and have lamented my numerous floaters.

after about 3 years of eating whenever hungry, as well as reducing inflammatory foods of course, they’ve finally all but disappeared… of course on days where I push myself, and get pretty hungry, I’m more prone to see one.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

@LLight @TheSir

I’d suggest looking up mainstream medical’s 30 years of acclaimed health benefits of corticosteroids and estrogen — it’s functionally what we’re arguing about on behalf of fasting (sans digestive-symptoms improvement via not eating).

 

[LLight]

Reducing consumption of digestive irritant food that one cannot digest well eliminates the reaction to said food.

What does this have to do with dry fasting?
Do you think people stop to eat completely?

 

[RealNeat]

what kind of fasting are you advocating? I started very slowly, and learned of OMAD later on. 16/8 is a very benign way of fasting, which practically every fasting advocate advocates as a minimum. It’s about as bad as Ramadan. These are simply a sum total of types of fasting I attempted over a 1.5 year period. You don’t know the frequency or the when, of my fasting.

Well… you accidentally ceded my point:
no claim of fasting curing anything, is true, and it’s a bandaid of anti-inflammatory hormones that will do nothing but alleviate symptoms temporarily…

I was trying to make a point, not trying to flesh out scenarios. In reality, if one out-ran / survived a predator attack, he could still be 4 hours from camp, where surplus calories are available. More realistically, look up existing tribes today like the Hadza. They are gone on a hunt for a whole day, and then engaging the hunt they have to run, and they can go without eating for up to a day. Something like intermittent fasting by necessity is very normal in a tribal scenario.

I forget all the scenarios, but they were what was used by fasting advocates.

Native Americans could be on a slow-pace jog for a day before they caught up to a wounded big game.

The hadza are also much smaller than westerners, even tho they eat a basically Peaty diet.
They also don’t live as long as westerners, and those who reach old age, reach 70s.


after about 3 years of eating whenever hungry, as well as reducing inflammatory foods of course, they’ve finally all but disappeared… of course on days where I push myself, and get pretty hungry, I’m more prone to see one.

Ramadan fasting is only one month not your 1.5 year experiment. The glycogen stores are barely depleted by the time one breaks their Ramadan fast, the hormonal cascade that results in "starvation" mode doesn't even get activated. I think your emphasis on eliminating gut irritating foods and lessening the bacteria is sound however it's also why Dr. Peat suggest low level antibiotics which can be accomplished by dry fasting in a less risky and cheap way, considering problematic foods are also eliminated. Fluid restriction independent of stress hormones is an anti inflammatory since inflammation needs water to happen.

The DDW produced by cells as a result of beta oxidation is likely also therapeutic, however I seldom, if ever feel myself going even close to full ketosis.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

Ramadan fasting is only one month not your 1.5 year experiment.

I 100% agree with you, that intermittent fasting for 1 month, is far less stressful than intermittent fasting for a year.
But, practically everyone who’s advocating fasting for health, isn’t putting an 11 month restriction on it.

The glycogen stores are barely depleted by the time one breaks their Ramadan fast, the hormonal cascade that results in "starvation" mode doesn't even get activated.

Ray Peat says that only an extremely healthy person has enough glycogen stores to last 8 hours.

I think your emphasis on eliminating gut irritating foods and lessening the bacteria is sound however it's also why Dr. Peat suggest low level antibiotics which can be accomplished by dry fasting in a less risky and cheap way, considering problematic foods are also eliminated. Fluid restriction independent of stress hormones is an anti inflammatory since inflammation needs water to happen.

the problem with that, is assuming that bacterial overgrowth is the only thing you want to control in your gut. Fungus will overgrow when starved of sugar, but unlike bacteria, grows thru the intestinal walls, and becomes systemic, which is much harder to cure, as I’m experiencing right now. It can become deadly.

Ray also said how fasting will cause mineralocorticoids like aldosterone to elevate (which can be harder to lower than just cortisol), because of restricted salt consumption.


View: https://youtu.be/YYd1-4bsH2c

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

What does this have to do with dry fasting?
Do you think people stop to eat completely?

Dry fasting includes not eating foods. This essentially allows rest for the gut, especially if the foods irritate the gut.

 

[LLight]

@TheSir

I've stopped my copper supplementation currently as it seems to have increased my tendencies to have rosacea a lot recently.

This is interesting as rosacea is hypothesized to be associated with low stomach acid and copper has supposedly been shown to inhibit gastric acid production (in a drosophila model at least), copper might bind with metallothionein while this protein is needed for acid production.

My hypothesis is I should have been marginaly deficient in copper but that I also have an issue of copper metabolism and that supplementation both helped my energy levels but may have been too much (even if the doses were rather low, never over 0.6mg/day).

I probably have to work on my copper metabolism, maybe due to high iron (I have "one half" of hereditary hemochromatosis if I remember correctly) or deranged water homeostasis.