LIVE: The Yellow Vests Movement

sunraiser

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I fully agree with you @sunraiser .... only this bit

It's definitely in part a divide and conquer / scapegoat -technique to deflect anger and hate from the ruling classes to another group. Identity politics is another strategy, but aimed on left-leaning people - again, to deflect their attention from the real cause of society-problems, especially the frappant misallocation of wealth.
Now comes the but. But:

Germany at least is a very special case. Since 2013 and especilly 2015 around 2,5 million immigrants from mostly african and aabian contries were actively allowed into the country by the governments and authorities. The media covered it as a great humanitarian, virtous achievement. Now, I don't think I harbour any racial prejudices against african/black people or muslims or people from "arabaina" countries. These are human with the same basic needs and motives as any other. But, and this is an undenaible fact, most of those who immigrated into Germany are only qualified to do the lowest tier of labour. Manual or monotonous jobs. Even though, only 10% from those who came are now in the workforce - it takes on average 10 years before people "integrate" enough to do a job that contributes to tax and social security-funds.
At the same time, these people get generous welfare-services and money from the get-go.
The purpose of the mass-immigration since 2013/15 into Germany is clear. The industry and other firms get cheap labour and a massive pool of applicants for it (like in darkest days of the industrial revolution) - you can hire and fire anytime. In Germany, these low-wages workers are even subsidized. Meaning, the tax-payer pays the employer a part of the wage of the worker while he creams added value / profit.
Win for the rich.

The other purpose is to overstretch the german welfare-system so to finally abolish it comletely. It's clear that there is a limit to what a solidarily organized welfare state, financed by tax-payers and contributions into social-funds by every working individual. In Germany there are 32 millon of those who pay into it, and and increasig number of those who take out of the social-security witout ever contributing to it.
An immigrant-family from iraq might come into the country with 3 children and bear another couple once they are here. All 5-7 of them will receive money, free housing and healt-insurance as well as child-assistance, courses and schooling for free forever. If they refuse to integrate by teaching their children the german society-norms, language and necessary habits, they will never pay into the funds. The examples are numerous.
Not becuase they are inferior people, a lazy race or some such bull****, but because that's their cultural "moulding" - and they find here enough "parallel societies" (german term i dont know how to translate, but the meaning should be clear) where they can live to their beliefs and habits withut the need to integrate ever.

This will eventually eradicate any soilidarity-structures of the state. And that's probably the plan. In this case, Immigration is integral part of this operation and thus, to blame and attack in this current form and way.
If they succeeed in destroying the scandinavian and German models of welfare states, arguably the best there are, then it will never come into existence anywhere else agian.

That's an incredibly insightful post, thanks!

It has shed a lot of light onto the system in Germany at current. There are definitely some parallels here in the UK (it's a scarily similar approach) but also some fundamental differences.

In the UK we have a 2 year waiting period to receive benefits for immigrants from outside the European Economic Area, so there's significantly less pressure on the welfare system in that regard.

We have a similar system in which the tax payer subsidises low wage workers via something called "tax credits". So just like in Germany the public are directly subsidising massive corporate entities instead of legislating for them to pay higher wages that they can well afford.

Over here, while we have some immigration, the attack on the welfare system and social infrastructure networks are coming simply through cuts. The ideology is being pushed under the guise of "balancing the books" (despite having ever increasing debt...). Over the last decade the systematic attack has been on our public health system (the NHS). Effectively, ever increasing cuts and stealth privatising schemes (that drastically increase real terms costs) have put the system under immense strain.

This NHS crisis has been plastered across the media constantly and relentlessly stating it's at breaking point and that it's unsustainable etc. There has been a concerted effort to put the idea in the public eye that it's impossible not to privatise. This is despite having corruption and expenses scandals from MPs only getting a day or so coverage. Luckily the UK public are extremely defensive about the NHS and opinion still favours it. So, more stealth privatising instead.

Over here the approach is to distract the right leaning people with the idea that immigrants are taking their jobs and their opportunities, that immigrants are taking their hospital beds, that if the "foreigners" were stopped then we'd have money for infrastructure and healthcare etc. The utter madness is that it's our conservative party saying these things. People that ideologically don't believe in public services are telling the population that public service issues are only broken because of immigrants, and the people that MOST need those public services are voting for the very people that seek to sell everything off to the private sector. It's utter madness and a completely clear example that the media are completely and utterly partisan to the government (and vice versa).

The left leaning people (that aren't acutely aware of what's happening outside their daily lives) are manipulated and distracted via "gender imbalances". For young women, MEN are now the enemy. Men want to keep them down and oppress them etc. I see women with some of the most fortunate and privileged upbringings talking about how they're oppressed. Many women in the world ARE oppressed, of course, but in the West it's largely a distraction tactic.

The social infrastructure systems in the UK are in no way comparable to Germany or the rest of Northern Europe, but it's almost uncanny how media corruption and misinformation are being used to gain support for corporate interest based policy. People no longer understand what they're voting for and it's a crying shame.

It has been really interesting to read how similar the approaches are in both countries and it's such a sinister premise.
 

LeeLemonoil

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Yes, I read British news online news outlets almost daily and do so since 6 years or so - Guardian mostly but also others and you get a good insight of differing opinions via reading the comment sections.

I‘m very pleased that my impressions about what’s going on in the UK with regards to what we discuss here is completely in line with what you just wrote. I’m aware of all of that, especially the NHS related bits. It’s funny how one clearly gets a feel about how Britians feel about it through reading comments for years.
There is also a stealth-privatization underway in the German healthcare system and it too has many parallels to the schemes you observed in Britain.
 

yerrag

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It has nothing to do with Europe - France have been in the EU for a long time without issue.
I beg to disagree. As the EU is a monolithic aggregation of states and as it makes policies for the people of France, these policies tend to become far removed from the needs of the French people. It is clear that the EU does not really represent these people, and the Yellow Vest protest is not far removed from this disconnect between the EU and the people of France. Macron represents the EU, not France.
 
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yerrag

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They've gone from a string of governments that are funded and supported by "the people" to a government under Macron that represents corporate special interests. The highest bidder dictates the policy.

This is a huge upheaval for the French.
The EU represents corporate special interests. Macron represents the EU, and by extension the corporate special interests.

It has nothing to do with immigration. Immigrants are the SCAPEGOAT of blame for the rising inequality. It's a media tool to keep people angry at a vulnerable group. The media directly fund the government and are direct benefactors to their actions.

If you're afraid of immigrants or people of different faiths and ethnicities that won't change until you properly integrate and understand they're human just the same as you. Don't blame them for a calculated and self interest based governance approach in which corporate interests almost entirely dictate policy.
Has everything to do with immigration. It is the way to shake the foundations of solvent states into bankrupt ones, and make mendicants of a once proud people. Yes, immigrants deserve assistance, and yes, they are people too. But they are the politicians' trojan horse to inflict pain on the masses, to make them subservient and dependent, so that the politicians and their benefactors can wield greater power.

This is Stefan Molyneux' analysis of the Mueller saga, and it touches briefly on immigration past the middle of the video:

 

Rafe

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@LeeLemonoil @sunraiser
Thanks for those analyses. I’m reading a history of US labor organizing since there was recently a strike in my town that I got mildly involved in. When you mention that the competing false media about who/what is to blame for the worsening conditions of working people being just like the early years of the industrial revolution, I see it clearly that way too.
Jay Gould: “I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.”

@sunraiser I have to come out & say that I agree with your views on the extremes in the gender narrative today. I’m not saying there aren’t any inequities. But i’m among the few who still think that general inequality imposed by plutocracy is the more fundamental problem. The rest is distraction. You put that in a sensible, non-inflammatory way. I like that.
 

sunraiser

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The EU represents corporate special interests. Macron represents the EU, and by extension the corporate special interests.


Has everything to do with immigration. It is the way to shake the foundations of solvent states into bankrupt ones, and make mendicants of a once proud people. Yes, immigrants deserve assistance, and yes, they are people too. But they are the politicians' trojan horse to inflict pain on the masses, to make them subservient and dependent, so that the politicians and their benefactors can wield greater power.

This is Stefan Molyneux' analysis of the Mueller saga, and it touches briefly on immigration past the middle of the video:



My comment was perhaps a bit direct, and there's of course a degree of corporate influence on the EU, but from my perspective in England EU legislation is the only barrier to keep corporate entities having some kind of social positive via legislation. Else they'd become nothing but leeches to society and humanity. The EU prevents corporate interests from getting what they want in the UK (to a degree). It legislates in favour of people, not corporate entities.

The guy whose video you linked (Molyneux) is some kind of pseudo-intellectual and self declared philosopher. He seems to support anarchy and thinks people that aren't white are innately less intelligent. It's my LITERAL lived experience that this isn't the case - it isn't going to be possible for me to succumb to redneck fear-based theorising.

You cannot reap the benefits of society (being surrounded by infrastructure and educated people, having access to information and being served by millions that make your life more convenient, by those PRODUCTS of a social system that make your time far more valuable) while not having a willingness to contribute to it in any way - it's insanity.

He claims in the absence of government that charity will simply appear out of nowhere and support those in need. I'm living in the real world and this is simply not happening - welfare cuts have created a crisis in poverty and homelessness that isn't even close to being addressed by charity.

The idea that anarchism will mean there's no central power base is just crazy. It just puts the power ENTIRELY in the hands of the wealthy instead of only partially. A market can never be free because humans have BASIC NEEDS - food, water, clothes, shelter, companionship. A monopoly can always be created on these things and humans cannot simply redirect the market by forsaking them.

I watched the bit of the video because I'm interested in your perspective, but I can't finish it, I'm sorry. I'm keen to hear your thoughts but not the thoughts of a sociopathic lunatic such as that chap.
 
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sunraiser

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Yes, I read British news online news outlets almost daily and do so since 6 years or so - Guardian mostly but also others and you get a good insight of differing opinions via reading the comment sections.

I‘m very pleased that my impressions about what’s going on in the UK with regards to what we discuss here is completely in line with what you just wrote. I’m aware of all of that, especially the NHS related bits. It’s funny how one clearly gets a feel about how Britians feel about it through reading comments for years.
There is also a stealth-privatization underway in the German healthcare system and it too has many parallels to the schemes you observed in Britain.

Yes, the Guardian comments section is probably a better reflection of what's happening in Britain than the Guardian itself :)

It's the best news outlet we have though. I've noticed the comments section goes a bit weird and gets full of conservative rhetoric based and jingoistic phrases during pre-election months. I've seen people suggesting conservatives employ people to flood the comments section but I have no idea if that actually happens.
 

LeeLemonoil

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@LeeLemonoil @sunraiser
Thanks for those analyses. I’m reading a history of US labor organizing since there was recently a strike in my town that I got mildly involved in. When you mention that the competing false media about who/what is to blame for the worsening conditions of working people being just like the early years of the industrial revolution, I see it clearly that way too.
Jay Gould: “I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half.”

@sunraiser I have to come out & say that I agree with your views on the extremes in the gender narrative today. I’m not saying there aren’t any inequities. But i’m among the few who still think that general inequality imposed by plutocracy is the more fundamental problem. The rest is distraction. You put that in a sensible, non-inflammatory way. I like that.


This will be the defining question of a fledgling grassroots movement on the left in the US.
Will they overcome infighting and identity-politics in favour of tackling the gross inequalities and exploitive mechanisms of the economy or will they stay splintered and distracted to identity issues.
Of course gender and racial issues are part of a genuine leftwing policy and need to be addressed and considered. But distribution of wealth and means of production are still the „upstream“-problems and need tackling first and foremost.

Pls also consider that when we discuss politics and economics in an international forum that the US-understanding of „leftwing“, „socialism“ and similar terms are quite different to European and I assume the rest of the worlds understanding.
 

Rafe

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I do understand (better than I can say) the unique way that the US ideological vocabulary about ideology has been hopelessly destroyed. Or, maybe that will be a contribution if, how RP uses “culture” and “ideology,” it inadvertently makes way for some people to think better out of the muddle.

Meantime, it’s Babel over here. I’ll stop thread-jacking now. Thanks for the good convo. I’ve been keeping some eye on the Yellow Vests stories but the information has been vague. Thanks for a closer view.
 

LeeLemonoil

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@Rafe
I thought that you do, and I can feel what you mean by „better than I can say“ - it was meant as a remark to other readers here who might not be aware of theses deferences.

An interesting thread indeed.

The yellow vests have weeks ago formulated a very detailed catalogue of demands and goals and have given it over to the National Assembly - as far as I understand the main chamber in France.

But you would hardly read about that in mainstream media. France‘ policy is of eminent importance also in Germany- the yellow vests get vilified and defamed over here in the msm.
I‘m sure one can read in English about said „catalogue“ if one searches the net
 

LeeLemonoil

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That’s it.

A mixture of socialist, socialdemocratic, protectionistic, anti-elite, fair taxation, some anti-globalist demands.
Very much what are the demands today of big portions of many western societies.
The natural backlash to globalized hypercapitalism.
 

Rafe

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It does look like a mix of features that protect & put livable life at the center.

I recently happened on RP’s comments on Occupy that they should have allowed dissenters within the movement to “work on their issues” while (I forget exactly how he put it) the general consensus could have gone forward, perhaps gaining party status. I see a couple of places where that could be a good approach with this catalogue.

The risk of fracturing & being absorbed seems irresistible to activist movements. It’s probably not really due to not thinking through the usual lifetime of a movement but certainly France & Germany have their own Pinkertons/CoIntelPros to contend with. Where else would we have learned it?
 

cats

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Of course gender and racial issues are part of a genuine leftwing policy and need to be addressed and considered. But distribution of wealth and means of production are still the „upstream“-problems and need tackling first and foremost.
I think they need to be tackled simultaneously. You can't expect identity minorities to be too enthusiastic about supporting a new economic order if there's no place in it for them.
 

LeeLemonoil

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In the sense that any left program or movements needs to make clear that there cannot be any discrimination of race, gender avd so forth and no privilege for some above others because of these things, yes.

But there is a thin line between accepting that and join forces and getting lost in fruitless infighting because it’s easier than the real conflict with the ruling class which ultimately would be very hard, dangerous and not guaranteed to succeed - whereas the identity politics fueled infighting is never really dangerous because it threatens no one with power and at the same time it makes the protagonists feel self-righteous, as if they can do something about their situation, virtue signaling and so forth ... people easily deluded themselves
 

yerrag

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The EU prevents corporate interests from getting what they want in the UK (to a degree). It legislates in favour of people, not corporate entities.
You have your feet wet on the ground and you have a better feel of what's going on in UK and in the EU, and you make valid points. But I don't think I'm far removed in seeing the same things happening in the US also happening in other parts of the world, especially in equally developed and Western countries. I've grown to disdain parties that make policies that appear to be benevolent on the surface, and so claim to have a moral high ground, and then proceed to make things worse in practice. And then after decades, as it takes that long to see the effects, they profess that what actually happened are unintended consequences. Yet I believe there is malice from the start, and it's just their high pretensions and feigned naivete that keeps such noble yet evil schemes regurgitated time and again.

So, when the EU legislates in favor of people, do they actually benefit the people? Or are they using corporate interests as their bogey man? Yet it is the corporate interests, on the whole, that benefit. There are exceptions, such as the EU being more strict on foods that are GMO, which contrasts with the US policy on GMO.

Going back to immigration in the EU, what does the current immigration policy really do Europe? Take away the benevolent part of it, where you receive with open arms refugees, and what have you got? Doesn't it drain the public coffers? Does it have the effect of making resources less available to the native-born and poorer sections of that country? Does it less to more taxation that is an additional burden to a heavily taxed population? And then you have to ask why there are refugees. Why is there this immigrant refugee class that needed to be helped? Didn't they use to have a decent life in their own countries? Did they prefer life in a foreign land over their own, were their land were liveable and enjoyable amongs their friends and family, in familiar surroundings? Why would they venture through hostile terrain and dangerous seas to land on unwelcome shores?

Where was the EU in all the events that precipitated the need to become refugees? I'm not blaming the EU really as being an innocent and helpless bystander really absolves it from any complicity. The real cause is that US policy, driven by the deep state elements of it that favor war and dependency on it as a hegemon. But the EU, were it really a force for good, should have used its power to counter US actions that led to the current crisis of immigration. Yet it is Russia and China, the putative bad guys, that are countering the US penchant for war. And the EU acts just as expected, being a de facto vassal aggregation of states, at best a passive and at worst an active collaborator of the war criminal US deep state. For that, we have the refugees and immigrants, and for that, we have the Yellow Vest constituents of France being foisted on to carry the burden of suffering the consequences of someone else's policies and actions.

The EU isn't going to redress the grievances of a large section of France that has suffered greatly. Not at all. Not ever.

The guy whose video you linked (Molyneux) is some kind of pseudo-intellectual and self declared philosopher. He seems to support anarchy and thinks people that aren't white are innately less intelligent. It's my LITERAL lived experience that this isn't the case - it isn't going to be possible for me to succumb to redneck fear-based theorising.

I haven't watched all of his videos and need to go back to see what he said exactly. I can't rely on 2nd hand accounts (not referring to you) so I have to see his comments in context. Very often, media can put words out of context and vilify and dox people. I'll have to get back to you on this.

I don't know why you still use terms like redneck. Have you really known people who are rednecks? Perhaps you've met Muslims and you've realized they are just as decent as both you and I are. Perhaps it's time you go visit some rednecks and perhaps you'll find them to be people too.

You cannot reap the benefits of society (being surrounded by infrastructure and educated people, having access to information and being served by millions that make your life more convenient, by those PRODUCTS of a social system that make your time far more valuable) while not having a willingness to contribute to it in any way - it's insanity.

What are you referring to you here? The ones I can think of are the people who sit cushy while they dictate policies and actions in which the consequences of is hardly felt by them. They probably never used their hands, and are the same soft hands upon which the Bolsheviks used as basis for their execution.

He claims in the absence of government that charity will simply appear out of nowhere and support those in need. I'm living in the real world and this is simply not happening - welfare cuts have created a crisis in poverty and homelessness that isn't even close to being addressed by charity.
And yet more dependency on the government isn't going to make things any better. I would bet that if the surplus is in private hands, instead of being taken away from them by taxation to be redistributed in the form of welfare, people would have the means to help and not only help, but to find better solutions. And by solutions, I don't mean having more firemen to fight fires, but having better ways to keep fires from happening.

The idea that anarchism will mean there's no central power base is just crazy. It just puts the power ENTIRELY in the hands of the wealthy instead of only partially. A market can never be free because humans have BASIC NEEDS - food, water, clothes, shelter, companionship. A monopoly can always be created on these things and humans cannot simply redirect the market by forsaking them.
A strong and well-educated (in contrast to well-indoctrinated) middle class is the bulwark against such things happening. But if you make this educated middle class poorer and poorer, which is the trend in the US and I suspect in the EU, then there really is nothing left to check these wealthy people. Don't think the government will do that for you.
 

sladerunner69

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I think what's happening in France is in many ways what's happening in the US heartland. Lost job and lower incomes from the competitive pressures of globalization, hollowing out the manufacturing base. With immigration, theirs is a worse case as Macron is as welcoming of immigrants as he is dismissive of the effects huge numbers of immigrants will have on the employment prospects of its middle class. The hard part for the Yellow Vest protesters is that they suffer the consequences of poor decisions made by the EU decisionmakers, who are far removed from these consequences and perhaps even profit from it. This is a people marginalized by their own government protesting at their leadership's tone-deaf policies.

At least Macron has the fiscal sense to lower taxes and liberalize the economy where it counts. I mean, gas tax aside, he has mostly tried to lower taxes and balance the budget. What these people are really protesting is the increase of their pension age from 50 to 60. That is still lower than the standard age of 65 in most countries, but the French have always had a culture of socialism and protest.
 

sladerunner69

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I disagree. Germany has executed social- , economic and labourmarket- reforms in a vein similar to what Macron tries to achieve. It’s called „Agenda 2010“ and was set in motion in 2003.

Results: a highly „liberated“ volatile employment-situation.
The richest 10% of Germans got richer, 60% don’t possess a thing.
The economy relies on heavy trade surpluses/exports that are sustained by massively reduced wages - and Germany crossfinancea its exports by Target-saldi via the EU centralbank while domestic spending is low.
Theses reforms destroyed the very good German welfare state and empoverished vast portions of the population while the rich got exceedingly rich since these reform. Believe, Germany is a more miserable place since agenda 2010, and I say this as a profiteer is the changes

That's an interesting perspective, do you think you could explain further? You are missing a lot of components to the whole. Is there some suggested reading, maybe?

The same german welfare state that was in place before 2010 is still largely in place, as far as I can find. The real hurt in Germany is the unfettered immigration of unskilled workers, something that Macron has unfortunately not fully recognized but will hopefully come to. A quick search finds that the median wage in both countries has increased in the past decade, as well.
 
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