Lithium Experiences

Birdie

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@dilantinoid
I followed your amazon link to the book. Thanks.

I have a question. First the background. My father was in a motorcycle accident when he was in his mid 70s.
His doctors at Kaiser thought he might have suffered a seizure, so they put him on dilantin.
I looked it up in Merk's Manual and, as I recall, a side effect was bleeding. I think it said this happened as a usual side effect, not just occasionally.

Since you have studied it a lot, what is your take on that? Obviously, you wouldn't take it if you were convinced it caused internal bleeding.
He developed macular degeneration, which I (stupidly?) thought might be related.

Btw, it was later found that my dad was in a hit and run.
 

CoconutEffect

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@dilantinoid
I followed your amazon link to the book. Thanks.

I have a question. First the background. My father was in a motorcycle accident when he was in his mid 70s.
His doctors at Kaiser thought he might have suffered a seizure, so they put him on dilantin.
I looked it up in Merk's Manual and, as I recall, a side effect was bleeding. I think it said this happened as a usual side effect, not just occasionally.

Since you have studied it a lot, what is your take on that? Obviously, you wouldn't take it if you were convinced it caused internal bleeding.
He developed macular degeneration, which I (stupidly?) thought might be related.

Btw, it was later found that my dad was in a hit and run.
My guess - It's an old and well studied drug. I would find it difficult to believe that if it were likely to cause internal bleeding, it wouldn't have been such a widely and successfully prescribed medication for epilepsy. It's been a while since I've studied Dilantin as it's no longer helpful for me. But whenever I'd mention my success with it to doctors/psychiatrists, their first reaction was almost invariably, "watch out for gingival hyperplasia, have you tried Depakote?". In Dreyfus' book he recommends a relatively low dose, 100mg 3x a day. My response was exactly like Dreyfus' response - complete remission from all depressive/bipolar/circadian abnormalities in one hour (this occurred before I read the book, so unlikely placebo, and it lasted for 4 months). When writing to Ray about the benefits I experienced, his response was

"I think Dilantin is protective against an excess of endogenous opiates"​

I would assume an ordinary MD would have a better answer for bleeding risk. But according to the Dreyfus foundation and the research they compiled, you'll know in an hour if it will be a useful drug for you. Hence the "one hour test".

It was a quasi religious experience when it kicked in on a NYC subway. It changed my personality in very interesting ways, if anyone's interested, happy to share.
 

Birdie

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My guess - It's an old and well studied drug. I would find it difficult to believe that if it were likely to cause internal bleeding, it wouldn't have been such a widely and successfully prescribed medication for epilepsy. It's been a while since I've studied Dilantin as it's no longer helpful for me. But whenever I'd mention my success with it to doctors/psychiatrists, their first reaction was almost invariably, "watch out for gingival hyperplasia, have you tried Depakote?". In Dreyfus' book he recommends a relatively low dose, 100mg 3x a day. My response was exactly like Dreyfus' response - complete remission from all depressive/bipolar/circadian abnormalities in one hour (this occurred before I read the book, so unlikely placebo, and it lasted for 4 months). When writing to Ray about the benefits I experienced, his response was

"I think Dilantin is protective against an excess of endogenous opiates"​

I would assume an ordinary MD would have a better answer for bleeding risk. But according to the Dreyfus foundation and the research they compiled, you'll know in an hour if it will be a useful drug for you. Hence the "one hour test".

It was a quasi religious experience when it kicked in on a NYC subway. It changed my personality in very interesting ways, if anyone's interested, happy to share.

Thank you. Maybe the key to avoiding the internal bleeding is the low dose!

My father had no personality changes on it. He never mentioned any benefit. But he was not using it with the protocol you mention. So, that would be a different scenario.

The Physician's Desk Reference is what doctors use to check for drug side effects. It did list internal bleeding as an expected side effect, but that would be for the normal dose used for stroke. Not the low dose that seems to have so many benefits.

Thanks and I'd like to read that book sometime too. Right now I'm researching a bowel problem of my husband so will put Dilantin on back burner...
 

Regina

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I take lithium with cyproheptadine only and I don't feel lethargic... It makes me feel spiritually good and mind brain feel like growing... With this combo I am finalizing my projects and my learned helplessness vanish... I enjoy life much better and feel going out more... And feel much more positive about everything.... For me this combo was game changer... I take 150mcg lithium with 4mg cyproheptadine.... You may try 150mcg lithium with 2mg cyproheptadine... There are studies showing that lithium is one of best mind remedies but on right doses... It is all about us to find right dose or combo
REOSIRENS, what lithium product do you use? I want to try this same combo that has worked positively for you. Thx!
 

bionicheart

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First effect I noticed is an impulse to breathe deeply and slowly. I feel kind of air hungry too. This is like thiamine and acetazolamide which I've both tried. Also, I found a study how lithium blocked carbonic anhydrase in vivo but not in vitro so there is a complex mechanism.
I felt very happy all day today. People commented on how happy I was. Strong, noticeable decrease in shyness, social anxiety, and stuttering. I feel very energetic.
Hey @Pointless
I took 1/4 of a lithium orotate 150mcg pill. I felt really great, and relaxed, I would even use the word euphoric! But I got that "air hungry feeling" too which made me feeling panicky without the physical symptoms of panic, it was strange.
Also, my heart rate went up to at least 100BPM. The HR increase has prevented me from trying lithium orotate again.
I just felt absolutely free from my anxiety when I took it and I would like to try it again, I just want to get some feedback if the increased HR is a normal reaction or shouldn't be taken. Thanks
 

Pointless

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Hey @Pointless
I took 1/4 of a lithium orotate 150mcg pill. I felt really great, and relaxed, I would even use the word euphoric! But I got that "air hungry feeling" too which made me feeling panicky without the physical symptoms of panic, it was strange.
Also, my heart rate went up to at least 100BPM. The HR increase has prevented me from trying lithium orotate again.
I just felt absolutely free from my anxiety when I took it and I would like to try it again, I just want to get some feedback if the increased HR is a normal reaction or shouldn't be taken. Thanks

Lithium can increase thyroid antibodies. I think someone posted that study in this thread. Anyway, this can release lots of thyroid hormone into your bloodstream and long-term use could lead to hypothyroidism. Also, lithium can cause straight hypothyroidism right away, which was the case with me as it made me pretty cold. Did your temps change?

If the 100 BPM is caused by adrenaline, you might want to increase your calories to see if that works. I think what this thread establishes is that lithium is an incredibly potent remedy with a lot of amazing benefits, but its long-term side effects are prohibitive for most people.
 

bionicheart

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Lithium can increase thyroid antibodies. I think someone posted that study in this thread. Anyway, this can release lots of thyroid hormone into your bloodstream and long-term use could lead to hypothyroidism. Also, lithium can cause straight hypothyroidism right away, which was the case with me as it made me pretty cold. Did your temps change?

If the 100 BPM is caused by adrenaline, you might want to increase your calories to see if that works. I think what this thread establishes is that lithium is an incredibly potent remedy with a lot of amazing benefits, but its long-term side effects are prohibitive for most people.

Yes, I didn't take my temperature but I definitely noticed I felt warmer, almost suddenly hot like a hot flash (I'm in my twenties though). So maybe if I try it again, just make sure it's after a decent meal...? Thanks
 

Pointless

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Yes, I didn't take my temperature but I definitely noticed I felt warmer, almost suddenly hot like a hot flash (I'm in my twenties though). So maybe if I try it again, just make sure it's after a decent meal...? Thanks

Yes, try it out to see if that minimizes the effect, but since you had a hot flash, it's most likely screwing up your thyroid. You shouldn't take something like that long term. Try increasing salt intake to see if that stabilizes your mood, maybe 1/4 tsp/day.
 

Birdie

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Yes, try it out to see if that minimizes the effect, but since you had a hot flash, it's most likely screwing up your thyroid. You shouldn't take something like that long term. Try increasing salt intake to see if that stabilizes your mood, maybe 1/4 tsp/day.
Sounds like a good idea. Think Peat would agree. I take Li orotate low dose.. 130 mg/day.
 
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REOSIRENS

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Lithium can increase thyroid antibodies. I think someone posted that study in this thread. Anyway, this can release lots of thyroid hormone into your bloodstream and long-term use could lead to hypothyroidism. Also, lithium can cause straight hypothyroidism right away, which was the case with me as it made me pretty cold. Did your temps change?
Lithium may cause hyperthyroidism it has some actions related to Triiodothyronine and others related to Progesterone...lithium stimulate metabolism quite strongly... Some people have problems with lithium because it Uptakes magnesium thiamine retinol and dhea to be antidepressant and mood stabilizer...and to improve metabolic process ... Be aware of very high doses... If lithium doesn't work or stopped working then make sure you have on your diet or supplementation these nutrients I mentioned above
 

Birdie

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Lithium may cause hyperthyroidism it has some actions related to Triiodothyronine and others related to Progesterone...lithium stimulate metabolism quite strongly... Some people have problems with lithium because it Uptakes magnesium thiamine retinol and dhea to be antidepressant and mood stabilizer...and to improve metabolic process ... Be aware of very high doses... If lithium doesn't work or stopped working then make sure you have on your diet or supplementation these nutrients I mentioned above
Okay, so I guess you are talking about pharmaceutical doses of lithium here.
 

Mountain

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Is it really micrograms because I'm taking 130 milligrams.... ?

I think people have mentioned 1-5mg of elemental lithium per day. So if you're taking a tablet that has 130mg of lithium orotate in it, you're getting ~5.56mg of elemental lithium.
 

Birdie

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I think people have mentioned 1-5mg of elemental lithium per day. So if you're taking a tablet that has 130mg of lithium orotate in it, you're getting ~5.56mg of elemental lithium.
Good point. People who haven't taken chemistry might not know that. But it's mcg that I take, not mg just to set the record straight.
 

Owen B

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Thanks for all the posts. This got my eye. It sounds like the orotate version is probably the best.

i have such energy issues I'll try this (deprenyl is also on my list - at very low doses).

Here's my thoughts on "therapeutic doses". I don't think the medical profession has the first idea what therapeutic doses are. Note that dosages are always round numbers: 50 mg, 100 mg., 250 mg., 500 mg etc, etc.

Prozac was originally meant to be marketed at a 2.5 mg dose. But Lilly thought that the public wouldn't buy it at that dose, because the amount was so low. They assumed the public wouldn't take the drug seriously at that level. So it was introduced at (I believe, a 20 mg. starting dose).

Believe me, that drug would work at 2.5 mg. In fact, I remember Lilly even wanted to market it at a once a week dose. (I'm not pushing Prozac; this is just an example).

Here's my strategy on most medications: take them at the lowest dose possible to achieve a good effect (vague, I know) for the shortest amount of time.

The medical profession is making it up as they go along.

(It's true there are some medications that work paradoxically, i.e, they work differently at a low or high dose. But i don't think there are many like that. If you have any concerns, ask your doctor).
 

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