Lithium Experiences

[High_Prob]

Where did you get the microgram source of lithium?

The lowest dose that I have seen is Life Extenstion's Memory Protect. The capsules come in blister pack sleeves. 24 caps are filled with 300 mcg of lithium orotate only and the other 12 caps are mixed with both 300 mcg of lithium orotate and 100 mcg of colostrinin (proline rich polypeptides).

Note: I know your question was directed to Charlie but just wanted to help out...

 

[charlie]

Where did you get the microgram source of lithium?

I purchased the one @REOSIRENS said he was having good results with in this post.

Amazon.com: Li-Zyme Forte 100 T - Biotics [Health and Beauty]: Health & Personal Care

 

[encerent]

I purchased the one @REOSIRENS said he was having good results with in this post.

Amazon.com: Li-Zyme Forte 100 T - Biotics [Health and Beauty]: Health & Personal Care

The lowest dose that I have seen is Life Extenstion's Memory Protect. The capsules come in blister pack sleeves. 24 caps are filled with 300 mcg of lithium orotate only and the other 12 caps are mixed with both 300 mcg of lithium orotate and 100 mcg of colostrinin (proline rich polypeptides).

Note: I know your question was directed to Charlie but just wanted to help out...

Thanks. Now why do the smaller doses always cost many times more??

 

[Birdie]

I've taken both the orotate and aspartate forms of low dose lithium. Reading all the comments here made me curious about the two forms.
Here is something I found on a site called Leaf. Makes it look like the orotate is safer.

Lithium Aspartate Vs. Lithium Orotate
Most proponents of low-dose lithium therapy such as Dr. Jonathan Wright recommend them equally. However, aspartate is considered to be an excitotoxic amino acid. Excitotoxins are substances that bind to a nerve cell receptor and cause damage via over-stimulation. According to Dr. Russell Blaycock, author of, “Excitotoxins: The Taste That Kills”, excess aspartate may result in excitotoxic reactions in sensitive individuals.

In contrast to the above, a study conducted at the Baker Medical Research Institute in Australia found that orotic acid on its own may have cardio protective benefits. Orotic acid has also been used for conditions such as multiple sclerosis, hepatitis and premature aging. Body builders sometimes use orotic acid because it is believed to enhance the production of ATP, a key component of cellular metabolism.

 

[REOSIRENS]

Why low dose of lithium is better than high dose...Because lithium Uptakes tons of glucose to be restorative and very effective antidepressant... Never forget that lithium needs glucose or cholesterol... Everytime you take lithium you will be reducing your glycogen supplies and specially magnesium and potassium...
In one scientific journal it showed that lithium significantly depleted magnesium(lithium works closely with magnesium)

 

[Birdie]

Why low dose of lithium is better than high dose...Because lithium Uptakes tons of glucose to be restorative and very effective antidepressant... Never forget that lithium needs glucose or cholesterol... Everytime you take lithium you will be reducing your glycogen supplies and specially magnesium and potassium...
In one scientific journal it showed that lithium significantly depleted magnesium(lithium works closely with magnesium)

Okay. Thanks. Just got my Li orotate (Relentless Improvement) in the mail. Had been using aspartate.
Took my evening dose with coffee, milk, sugar, magnesium. I was gonna take 2 of these a day. I think each tab is about 5 mg lithium.

Maybe I should do just one a day to test that out.

 

[Birdie]

I read all the comments, well almost all, again. So, will take the advice to go very low dose for now.
Glad Paul Jaminet advises weekly dose, and that others use tiny bits during the day. Some options.
I'll use 1/4 tablet for a while...

Correction on my dose. Since we've been using 5mg Li for years and will be just switching to another form, the orotate, will keep at 5mg. Why would I cut back? Brain fog again.

 

[CoconutEffect]

I read all the comments, well almost all, again. So, will take the advice to go very low dose for now.
Glad Paul Jaminet advises weekly dose, and that others use tiny bits during the day. Some options.
I'll use 1/4 tablet for a while...

Can anyone make a sourced case for low dose lithium orotate/aspartate vs lithium carbonate doses that achieve "therapeutic blood levels"?

 

[LUH 3417]

I take lithium with cyproheptadine only and I don't feel lethargic... It makes me feel spiritually good and mind brain feel like growing... With this combo I am finalizing my projects and my learned helplessness vanish... I enjoy life much better and feel going out more... And feel much more positive about everything.... For me this combo was game changer... I take 150mcg lithium with 4mg cyproheptadine.... You may try 150mcg lithium with 2mg cyproheptadine... There are studies showing that lithium is one of best mind remedies but on right doses... It is all about us to find right dose or combo

Where do you get your cypro from?

 

[LUH 3417]

Have you actually ever had a severe
depressive episode? You don't just get up out of bed, hop on a plane, travel and meet new people!!
You get out of bed....maybe
... and then you take your bloody medication.
A lot of seriously bad advice on this thread - uninformed, positive illusion, self helppy, pop psychology BS. Really not helpful.

Thank you for speaking up. Being depressed usually means not even having the energy to eat or bathe never mind speak.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Isn't it necessary to reach therapeutic blood levels of Lithium in order to experience benefit? This is standard practice in medicine and I'm sure there's good reason for doing it. It's the most studied substance in psychiatry even if it is currently in competition with the newer more expensive drugs.

This was discussed in the other thread. Basically, even trace amounts in drinking water have been shown to be beneficial (microgram dose, chronic administration). Studies have been conducted on amounts as small as 300 mcg daily that have shown an effect. The higher doses of Lithium (in the 50-300mg range) can have quicker effects on more serious neurological conditions, but they are also kidney toxic at those doses, and require monitoring. There can be benefits to lithium at doses that wouldn't necessarily treat or cure a more serious condition (like clinical depression, say). Although low level lithium (in, say, drinking water) may prevent that clinical depression from ever developing. For general mood improvement, microgram doses are probably fine. Jeffery Dach discussed some of the lower doses studied here- Lithium Orotate the Great Protector - Jeffrey Dach MD

 

[tankasnowgod]

Another thing with lithium.... it may increase NAD+, and therefore, the NAD+/NADH ratio. It apparently inhibits mir-34a. Mir-34a inhibits NAMPT, which is the enzyme that makes NAD+. So lithium should (at least in theory) increase NAD+. Might be wise to use additional niacinamide when dosing lithium.

 

[SQu]

We were discussing it in this thread- A Realisation - Why Doesn't Every Teenage Boy Have Prostate Cancer ? (Haidut mentions Lithium for the first time in the forth response, and as an exciting bonus, both John Goodman and Claire Danes are involved in the discussion)

Basically, much higher doses of Lithium (in the areas of 50-300g of the element) are used therapeutically in mental conditions, but those get into toxicity ranges. 5-10mg can be very effective, even for serious mental problems, and that's considered a "low dose." That would translate to 1-2 pills of 120mg Lithium Orotate a day. Even microgram doses seem to have a positive effect (I think 200-300mcg is discussed), so even nibbling on the pill over the week, or a weekly dose of a pill or two of orotate could have positive effects (I think Paul Jaminet used to recommend a weekly dose).

Just to clarify, because I'm looking into 120mg caps, that only means 5mg actual lithium per cap? so probably no need to divide further unless one decides on even less? or one could just take one a week?

 

[tankasnowgod]

Just to clarify, because I'm looking into 120mg caps, that only means 5mg actual lithium per cap? so probably no need to divide further unless one decides on even less? or one could just take one a week?

Right. The caps are 120mg of Lithium Orotate, but only 5 mg of elemental Lithium. Some brands (like Relentless Improvement) explicitly state this on the Supplement Facts box, others are unclear.

 

[High_Prob]

Another thing with lithium.... it may increase NAD+, and therefore, the NAD+/NADH ratio. It apparently inhibits mir-34a. Mir-34a inhibits NAMPT, which is the enzyme that makes NAD+. So lithium should (at least in theory) increase NAD+. Might be wise to use additional niacinamide when dosing lithium.

So it may decrease NAD+ and the NAD+/NADH ratio, right?

 

[High_Prob]

So it may decrease NAD+ and the NAD+/NADH ratio, right?

Nevermind, I see what you are saying now (that inhibiting Mir-34a (NAMPT inhibitor) ultimately increases NAD+) but why were you suggesting to take Niacinamide in addition to Lithium?

 

[REOSIRENS]

Where do you get your cypro from?

I get from the pharmacy...France

 

[tankasnowgod]

Nevermind, I see what you are saying now (that inhibiting Mir-34a (NAMPT inhibitor) ultimately increases NAD+) but why were you suggesting to take Niacinamide in addition to Lithium?

My thought was to provide more of the NAD+ precursor (in niacinamide) if you were going to be accelerating production of NAD+ (by lithium inhibiting the inhibitor).

 

[High_Prob]

My thought was to provide more of the NAD+ precursor (in niacinamide) if you were going to be accelerating production of NAD+ (by lithium inhibiting the inhibitor).

Cool, thanks!

 

[Barliman]

I am in the position of having true Bipolar I. I was started on Lithium carbonate in 1987 with prompt resolution of the hypomanic episode, and some years later came off it when some alterations to my medication were being made. That was a bad mistake, and caused a severe relapse of hypomania after a couple of years of more minor warning episodes.
However the resumption of Lithium aborted the manic episode in about 10 days. I also work in the health area and have a pretty thorough knowledge of the clinical effects.

So I am on Lithium carbonate 500mg twice daily. That gives me a serum level of about 0.7 mmol/l- which needs checking 2 monthly. Apart from a slight coarse tremor I really would not know I was on it. Equally, over the years I have not had any sign of any thyroid or chronic kidney problem. ( I did have a short term reaction when my dose was increased too fast--- a temporary inability to concentrate my urine.

So having given that background it is worth highlighting a few points:
Lithium is very good at controlling and preventing mania in at least 1/3 of bipolar patients.
It has a very poor track record for treating depression, though interestingly the small studies done so far are pointing to a probable very large antidepressant effect for N Acetyl Cysteine at about 2g/day-- a much larger effect than we usually get from antidepressants.

The evidence from population studies suggesting a lower suicide, homicide and dementia rate in populations with high levels of lithium in the drinking water are very encouraging from my point of view- as is the evidence pointing to a neuroprotective effect from NAC.

However there are plenty of posts here from people who have not noticed an effect from the 5mg lithium orotate or aspartate. Given my observations above I think it most ulikely that anyone would notice an observable effect-- but in all probability taking that much puts one in the same low suicide, homicide, dementia group as has been described here: Low risk of male suicide and lithium in drinking water. - PubMed - NCBI
Of course taking these levels is still experimental.