• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

Lithium (and Sodium) May Treat (osteo)arthritis

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,409
Location
USA / Europe
Ray has written on the benefits of lithium for mitochondrial health, ammonia reduction, etc. He also said that sodium has the same benefits and it is much safer than lithium. So, for those with bone/joint issues may be increasing salt intake will be beneficial.

http://www.qmul.ac.uk/media/news/items/se/159456.html
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 3/abstract
"...Moreover, lithium chloride did not induce the expression of catabolic enzymes in human articular chondrocytes. In an inflammatory model of cartilage destruction, lithium chloride blocked interleukin-1β signalling in the form of nitric oxide and prostaglandin E2 release and prevented matrix catabolism such that the loss of mechanical integrity observed with interleukin-1β alone was inhibited. This study provides further support for lithium chloride as a novel compound for the treatment of osteoarthritis."

The study found that lithium has anti-inflammatory effect through specific biomarkers such as IL-1b and PGE2. Another substance that also blocks these inflammatory mediators is aspirin, and at relatively low doses too. One human study found complete suppression of PGE2 and IL-1b at doses of 500mg taken for 2 months.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,367
And arthritis comes with fluid retention, it all makes sense :mrgreen:
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,409
Location
USA / Europe
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,367
:cool: :shock:

Lithium decreases VEGF mRNA expression in leukocytes of healthy subjects and patients with bipolar disorder

Leukocyte and platelet counts are correlated with serum VEGF-A and TGF-β1 levels [Clinical Implications of VEGF, TGF-β1, and IL-1β in Patients with Advanced Non-small Cell Lung Cancer.]

Expression of VEGF correlated with infarct volume, clinical disability (Scandinavian Stroke Scale), and peripheral leukocytosis [Serial measurement of vascular endothelial growth factor and transforming growth factor-beta1 in serum of patients with acute ischemic stroke.]

A statistically significant correlation was found between plasma VEGF concentrations and
certain biological characteristics of OHSS, such as capillary leakage and leukocytosis [The role of vascular endothelial growth factor and interleukins in the pathogenesis of severe ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome]

http://www.acpinternist.org/archives/2005/07/osteoarthritis.htm said:
For patients whose synovial fluid is compatible with osteoarthritis alone, their white blood cell count will be in the range of 200 to 2,000 per cubic millimeter. The white cell count of normal synovial fluid is less than 200; the range of 200 to 2,000 is abnormal, but noninflammatory.

What about them veins?


Thirty patients with knee osteoarthritis and thirty control cases with no knee
symptoms were evaluated clinically for chronic venous insufficiency.
Result: Knee osteoarthritis was significantly associated with leg edema (P value 0.002),
varicose veins (P value 0.011) and abnormal leg veins (whether varicose veins alone or
spider veins or both), (P values 0.02).
[http://www.bahrainmedicalbulletin.com/march_2012/The_association.pdf]


Venous Varicosity
There was a striking association between
lower limb varicosities and osteoarthritis of the
knee (Fig. 1).
In this series 48 patients had marked superficial
varicosities and 35 had had symptoms
from these. All but two of these 48 patients
had had the "venous" element of pain associated
with their osteoarthritic knees. That is,
no less than 67% of patients with osteoarthritis

and the venous variety of pain also had varicose
veins. Also of considerable interest was
the fact that in 21 patients with unilateral osteoarthritis,
the varicose veins were either confined
to or were worse on the osteoarthritic side
(F,ig. 1).
The history of vein disease always predated
the osteoarthritic symptoms by 3 to 18 years.
To draw a comparison with the incidence of
lower limb varicose veins in a similar age
group 100 outpatients attending for complaints
not referable to the lower limbs, were examined.
22 had varicose veins. Cockett and Dodd (1956)
quote a 26% incidence of varicose vein disease
in their survey of the general population.

[http://pmj.bmj.com/content/41/474/172.full.pdf]
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,409
Location
USA / Europe
Such_Saturation said:
:cool: :shock:

Lithium decreases VEGF mRNA expression in leukocytes of healthy subjects and patients with bipolar disorder

Leukocyte and platelet counts are correlated with serum VEGF-A and TGF-β1 levels [Clinical Implications of VEGF, TGF-β1, and IL-1β in Patients with Advanced Non-small Cell Lung Cancer.]

Expression of VEGF correlated with infarct volume, clinical disability (Scandinavian Stroke Scale), and peripheral leukocytosis [Serial measurement of vascular endothelial growth factor and transforming growth factor-beta1 in serum of patients with acute ischemic stroke.]

A statistically significant correlation was found between plasma VEGF concentrations and
certain biological characteristics of OHSS, such as capillary leakage and leukocytosis [The role of vascular endothelial growth factor and interleukins in the pathogenesis of severe ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome]

http://www.acpinternist.org/archives/2005/07/osteoarthritis.htm said:
For patients whose synovial fluid is compatible with osteoarthritis alone, their white blood cell count will be in the range of 200 to 2,000 per cubic millimeter. The white cell count of normal synovial fluid is less than 200; the range of 200 to 2,000 is abnormal, but noninflammatory.

What about them veins?


Thirty patients with knee osteoarthritis and thirty control cases with no knee
symptoms were evaluated clinically for chronic venous insufficiency.
Result: Knee osteoarthritis was significantly associated with leg edema (P value 0.002),
varicose veins (P value 0.011) and abnormal leg veins (whether varicose veins alone or
spider veins or both), (P values 0.02).
[http://www.bahrainmedicalbulletin.com/march_2012/The_association.pdf]


Venous Varicosity
There was a striking association between
lower limb varicosities and osteoarthritis of the
knee (Fig. 1).
In this series 48 patients had marked superficial
varicosities and 35 had had symptoms
from these. All but two of these 48 patients
had had the "venous" element of pain associated
with their osteoarthritic knees. That is,
no less than 67% of patients with osteoarthritis

and the venous variety of pain also had varicose
veins. Also of considerable interest was
the fact that in 21 patients with unilateral osteoarthritis,
the varicose veins were either confined
to or were worse on the osteoarthritic side
(F,ig. 1).
The history of vein disease always predated
the osteoarthritic symptoms by 3 to 18 years.
To draw a comparison with the incidence of
lower limb varicose veins in a similar age
group 100 outpatients attending for complaints
not referable to the lower limbs, were examined.
22 had varicose veins. Cockett and Dodd (1956)
quote a 26% incidence of varicose vein disease
in their survey of the general population.

[http://pmj.bmj.com/content/41/474/172.full.pdf]

And given the causal role of estrogen in varicose veins and VEGF, I think we can make the connection estrogen => osteoarthritis.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,367
:ss

Skin damage in the presence of chronic venous disease is partially mediated through leukocytes. [Increased plasma vascular endothelial growth factor among patients with chronic venous disease.]

Well, I know someone who has been a fan of aspirin for decades and has "arthrosis", varicose veins, fluid retention, and the spine is a big mess... I guess it will take more aspirin than that.
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,409
Location
USA / Europe
Such_Saturation said:
:ss

Skin damage in the presence of chronic venous disease is partially mediated through leukocytes. [Increased plasma vascular endothelial growth factor among patients with chronic venous disease.]

Well, I know someone who has been a fan of aspirin for decades and has "arthrosis", varicose veins, fluid retention, and the spine is a big mess... I guess it will take more aspirin than that.

Then it's time to try lithium or heaps of salt.
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2013
Messages
7,367
haidut said:
Such_Saturation said:
:ss

Skin damage in the presence of chronic venous disease is partially mediated through leukocytes. [Increased plasma vascular endothelial growth factor among patients with chronic venous disease.]

Well, I know someone who has been a fan of aspirin for decades and has "arthrosis", varicose veins, fluid retention, and the spine is a big mess... I guess it will take more aspirin than that.

Then it's time to try lithium or heaps of salt.

Yeah, but that's where the dogma (mental chains) comes in :lol:
 

Philomath

Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
636
Age
51
Location
Chicagoland
Ray has written on the benefits of lithium for mitochondrial health, ammonia reduction, etc. He also said that sodium has the same benefits and it is much safer than lithium. So, for those with bone/joint issues may be increasing salt intake will be beneficial.

Common mental health drug could be used to treat arthritis
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 3/abstract
"...Moreover, lithium chloride did not induce the expression of catabolic enzymes in human articular chondrocytes. In an inflammatory model of cartilage destruction, lithium chloride blocked interleukin-1β signalling in the form of nitric oxide and prostaglandin E2 release and prevented matrix catabolism such that the loss of mechanical integrity observed with interleukin-1β alone was inhibited. This study provides further support for lithium chloride as a novel compound for the treatment of osteoarthritis."

The study found that lithium has anti-inflammatory effect through specific biomarkers such as IL-1b and PGE2. Another substance that also blocks these inflammatory mediators is aspirin, and at relatively low doses too. One human study found complete suppression of PGE2 and IL-1b at doses of 500mg taken for 2 months.

@haidut, I just ran across this while searching for Magnesium salicylate... lithium salicylate - sold, rather inexpensively, by several chemical companies. Does this impart the benefits of Lithium and Aspirin? If nothing else, is it a safer form of Lithium?
USF Health researchers closer to improving safety, effectiveness of lithium therapy
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,409
Location
USA / Europe
@haidut, I just ran across this while searching for Magnesium salicylate... lithium salicylate - sold, rather inexpensively, by several chemical companies. Does this impart the benefits of Lithium and Aspirin? If nothing else, is it a safer form of Lithium?
USF Health researchers closer to improving safety, effectiveness of lithium therapy

I think it does give the benefit of both, but lithium should be taken in small doses only. It has a very narrow therapeutic dose range and beyond that becomes very toxic to kidneys and some other organs. So, the amount of this salt you'll be able to take would probably be very small and as such very little aspirin would get into your system. It may still have an effect but it would be probably similar to a baby aspirin dose.
The popular press article does say this salt is without the risks of other salts like lithium carbonate. I will look at the study when I get a chance and post here why they think it is safer and in what equivalent doses for humans.
 

Philomath

Member
Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
636
Age
51
Location
Chicagoland

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,409
Location
USA / Europe
Hey @haidut
Do you think higher sodium intake may increase calcium's urinary excretion?

Have not seen much on that. Higher sodium may decrease magnesium and potassium excretion, but calcium is more regulated by vitamin D and PTH.
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,409
Location
USA / Europe
Which form of lithium would you recommend

Any salt would be fine as long as the elemental lithium amount does not exceed say 5mg daily. But, as I said in the post, sodium would be safer.
 

aguilaroja

Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2013
Messages
836
...But, as I said in the post, sodium would be safer.
This finding is related to rheumatoid arthritis, regarded in the medical world as a different entity from osteoarthritis. It still suggests a beneficial role for sodium function.

Sodium excretion is higher in patients with rheumatoid arthritis than in matched controls. - PubMed - NCBI
“Sodium excretion was greater for patients with early RA…than controls…. Patients with radiographic erosion at the time of diagnosis had a higher sodium excretion than those without….”
“CONCLUSION: Patients with early RA showed increased sodium excretion which may have contributed to autoimmunity.”
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,409
Location
USA / Europe
This finding is related to rheumatoid arthritis, regarded in the medical world as a different entity from osteoarthritis. It still suggests a beneficial role for sodium function.

Sodium excretion is higher in patients with rheumatoid arthritis than in matched controls. - PubMed - NCBI
“Sodium excretion was greater for patients with early RA…than controls…. Patients with radiographic erosion at the time of diagnosis had a higher sodium excretion than those without….”
“CONCLUSION: Patients with early RA showed increased sodium excretion which may have contributed to autoimmunity.”

Very interesting, thanks! That would also suggest hypothyroidism in RA patients, right? The only other thing that causes sodium loss is vasopressin, which I don't think is elevated in RA.
 

Similar threads

Top