List of safe cheeses made with animal rennet

[Jennifer]

@Rinse & rePeat, thank you for sharing. I see Ray is talking about vegetarian rennet/enzymes. Did you happen to ask him about cultures?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

@Rinse & rePeat, thank you for sharing. I see Ray is talking about vegetarian rennet/enzymes. Did you happen to ask him about cultures?

I tried to lock him in on the cultures, but now I pasted your response here and asked specifically about the cultures only. Here is what I wrote now. I'm trying :) .....

"Sorry to bother you on the same subject Mr. Peat, but the question still persists about the "cultures" on cheese labels, and this is the response I got giving the debate your lengthy answer....

"thank you for sharing. I see Ray is talking about vegetarian rennet/enzymes. Did you happen to ask him about cultures?"

I said that the ingredient "cultures" on cheese labels are vague and can be "questionable" or "problematic" not knowing what those cultures are. Do you agree?

Thank you again for your time and patience on this matter."

 

[Matestube]

I had to call Boars Head, but their white Canadian Cheddar is made with animal rennet.

Lots of Parmesan are made with animal rennet.

 

[Jennifer]

I'm trying :) .....

You sure are! Thank you so much for all your effort. I continued searching through Ray’s articles and interviews but all I was finding were his thoughts on cultures as in societal beliefs, customs, institutions and cell cultures, however, I came across these two email exchanges this morning:

“Yoghurt​

In quantities of an ounce or so, for flavoring, it's o.k., but the lactic acid content isn't good if you are using yogurt as a major source of your protein and calcium. It triggers the inflammatory reactions, leading to fibrosis eventually, and the immediate effect is to draw down the liver's glycogen stores for energy to convert it into glucose.” Ray Peat

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

Unfortunately, it doesn’t talk about strained yogurt where the lactic acid is removed so it doesn’t help us much, however, I think this one gets us closer to an answer:

“Cheese​

[In cheese,] When the label says 'enzymes,' it is likely that they are using one of the new products; lots of people are having serious intestinal reactions to commercial cheeses. Real animal rennet is still safe, as far as I know. Industrial grade citric acid is a serious allergen for some people, because it contains contaminants that aren't in natural fruit citric acid, but it's probably safer than the industrial 'enzymes.' The producers of the enzyme products claim they are highly purified, but some people react as though they still contain some antigens from the microorganisms. The traditional cheeses were made with milk that soured with the bacteria that lived in the cows, but now it's common to sterilize the milk, and then add cultures, or enzymes, or citric acid, for standardization---but they often put their faith in a commercial product that seems to work well, but that could have serious allergenic contaminants. The same thing has been happening with aged cheeses, many places are no longer letting the native molds infect the cheese curds. Homogenizing doesn't cause any problems---unless they use solvents/detergents for adding the vitamins A and D that are required in milk with reduced fat. The vitamins aren't normally added to whole milk or cream.

One of the farmers I buy my raw milk from is from Germany and he told me that cottage cheese used to be made by letting the milk sit on the counter and curdle naturally so I tried it. Two weeks in and the milk had yet to curdle. I knew his farming practices were excellent—calf at foot, 100% grass-fed and biodynamic—but this milk seems to contain some serious antibodies to suppress bacteria like that. That or some magical fairy dust. lol Anyhow, if I’m interpreting what Ray said correctly, he thinks added commercial cultures could have serious allergenic contaminates. I suppose it’s similar to his view on supplements and their potential allergenic contaminates from the manufacturing process? So if someone with seriously sensitive intestines like myself doesn’t experience any reactions, it’s probably safe to assume the cheese is free of contaminants? I’ve been consuming specific cheeses for years now that contain added cultures and they’ve yet to cause any of my usual food allergy symptoms—stuffy sinuses, shortness of breath, hives, headaches/migraines and vomiting.

And just in case this is helpful, here is what Ray said to me in an email exchange back in 2015 when discussing digestive related symptoms I was experiencing at the time with dairy:

“Have you checked your temperature, pulse rate, and TSH when using the thyroid? Digestion is always poor when thyroid function is low. Too much cream makes milk hard for some people to digest, so I usually recommend 1% fat milk, and low-fat cheeses, such as cottage cheese or mozzarella. A daily raw carrot helps to reduce all kinds of microorganisms.” Ray Peat

 

[Jennifer]

Whoops. I forgot to add the link to the email exchange regarding cheese and I can’t edit my post above:

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

You sure are! Thank you so much for all your effort. I continued searching through Ray’s articles and interviews but all I was finding were his thoughts on cultures as in societal beliefs, customs, institutions and cell cultures, however, I came across these two email exchanges this morning:

“Yoghurt​

In quantities of an ounce or so, for flavoring, it's o.k., but the lactic acid content isn't good if you are using yogurt as a major source of your protein and calcium. It triggers the inflammatory reactions, leading to fibrosis eventually, and the immediate effect is to draw down the liver's glycogen stores for energy to convert it into glucose.” Ray Peat

Ray Peat Email Exchanges - Ray Peat Forum Wiki

raypeatforum.com

Unfortunately, it doesn’t talk about strained yogurt where the lactic acid is removed so it doesn’t help us much, however, I think this one gets us closer to an answer:

“Cheese​

[In cheese,] When the label says 'enzymes,' it is likely that they are using one of the new products; lots of people are having serious intestinal reactions to commercial cheeses. Real animal rennet is still safe, as far as I know. Industrial grade citric acid is a serious allergen for some people, because it contains contaminants that aren't in natural fruit citric acid, but it's probably safer than the industrial 'enzymes.' The producers of the enzyme products claim they are highly purified, but some people react as though they still contain some antigens from the microorganisms. The traditional cheeses were made with milk that soured with the bacteria that lived in the cows, but now it's common to sterilize the milk, and then add cultures, or enzymes, or citric acid, for standardization---but they often put their faith in a commercial product that seems to work well, but that could have serious allergenic contaminants. The same thing has been happening with aged cheeses, many places are no longer letting the native molds infect the cheese curds. Homogenizing doesn't cause any problems---unless they use solvents/detergents for adding the vitamins A and D that are required in milk with reduced fat. The vitamins aren't normally added to whole milk or cream.

One of the farmers I buy my raw milk from is from Germany and he told me that cottage cheese used to be made by letting the milk sit on the counter and curdle naturally so I tried it. Two weeks in and the milk had yet to curdle. I knew his farming practices were excellent—calf at foot, 100% grass-fed and biodynamic—but this milk seems to contain some serious antibodies to suppress bacteria like that. That or some magical fairy dust. lol Anyhow, if I’m interpreting what Ray said correctly, he thinks added commercial cultures could have serious allergenic contaminates. I suppose it’s similar to his view on supplements and their potential allergenic contaminates from the manufacturing process? So if someone with seriously sensitive intestines like myself doesn’t experience any reactions, it’s probably safe to assume the cheese is free of contaminants? I’ve been consuming specific cheeses for years now that contain added cultures and they’ve yet to cause any of my usual food allergy symptoms—stuffy sinuses, shortness of breath, hives, headaches/migraines and vomiting.

And just in case this is helpful, here is what Ray said to me in an email exchange back in 2015 when discussing digestive related symptoms I was experiencing at the time with dairy:

“Have you checked your temperature, pulse rate, and TSH when using the thyroid? Digestion is always poor when thyroid function is low. Too much cream makes milk hard for some people to digest, so I usually recommend 1% fat milk, and low-fat cheeses, such as cottage cheese or mozzarella. A daily raw carrot helps to reduce all kinds of microorganisms.” Ray Peat

Your additions are exactly what i have read. Considering bacteria is cultures, RP doesn't differentiate "good" or "bad" bacterias in the gut. He likes a sterile gut. Some people with quick digestion can "afford" eating unknown bacteria species from cheeses, but for people with slow digestion or constipation those unknown species of bacteria have too long to overpopulated. It isn't to say that the culture/bacteria is for sure bad, but they don't specify so who knows? Mozzarella and cottage cheese aren't aged like other cheeses so bacteria hasn't had time to grow like those two.

I read about the cheese cultures being "questionable" throughout the forum 5+ years ago, so I went through a few of those old cheese threads where members were remembering Ray Peat talking about the cultures being bad. You know if cultures were bad 5+ years ago they certainly haven't gotten any safer now. I am posting a few of the comments and a video clip below.

I gave up eating the variety of cheeses I was eating because of the warning. I use only cheese curds and mozzarella, when eating them cold, and cheddar I melt, hopefully killing the questionable stuff.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

"Ok, so I thought that the cheese should ONLY consist of milk, salt and annimal rennet?
Is this correct?
Because isn't rennet an enzyme and I thought we're supposed to avoid enzymes and cultures in cheese?
Also, don't cottage cheeses always have cultures in them?" -tomisonbottom

"Also the fact that there are thousands of products with different strenghts and bacterial cultures. How the hell you know what strenght and bacterias your suppose to take or what they even do inside of you? It's like shooting at dark." -dobbler

"When the bacteria reaches the colon - yes, it is usually beneficial. The issue the study discusses is that in people with slow digestion (basically majority of people) this bacteria colonizes the small intestine (SIBO) and leads to all kinds of issues. So, for probiotics to work they should be developed in a way that do not release their "payload" until they reach the colon." -Haidut

"When looking for hard cheese from raw milk of gras fed cows which includes a lot of living bacteria, I contacted the manufactures to get details about their fermentation cultures."

"Most of them use bacteria who produce both versions of lactate, but I was able to find one that makes 90% l-lactate and even one who use streptococcus thermophilus and making 100% l-lactate. I guess this is not a bad choice" -Dr. C



View: https://youtu.be/fsrUZvk7CjE

 

[Jennifer]

Your additions are exactly what i have read. Considering bacteria is cultures, RP doesn't differentiate "good" or "bad" bacterias in the gut. He likes a sterile gut. Some people with quick digestion can "afford" eating unknown bacteria species from cheeses, but for people with slow digestion or constipation those unknown species of bacteria have too long to overpopulated. It isn't to say that the culture/bacteria is for sure bad, but they don't specify so who knows? Mozzarella and cottage cheese aren't aged like other cheeses so bacteria hasn't had time to grow like those two.

Yep, from my understanding, Ray says the small intestine should be relatively sterile. I have a history of hypothyroid induced constipation and SIBO and I agree, given my experience, bacteria, even those naturally occurring in raw dairy, can definitely overpopulate the gut and cause problems. Also, starch and fiber can cause an overpopulation of bacteria, IME. Unlike starch and fiber, most cultured dairy products I’ve tried have treated me well, but then I know of people for whom the opposite is true so I’d say our intestines are probably best at determining whether or not a culture is bad?

I read about the cheese cultures being "questionable" throughout the forum 5+ years ago, so I went through a few of those old cheese threads where members were remembering Ray Peat talking about the cultures being bad. You know if cultures were bad 5+ years ago they certainly haven't gotten any safer now. I am posting a few of the comments and a video clip below.

Yep, me too, but it has mainly been members’ opinions, and their interpretation of Ray’s opinion, on the subject that I’ve read here over the years, not direct quotes from Ray, and when he told me he recommends cottage cheese and mozzarella, which typically have added cultures in the States, I wasn’t sure.

I gave up eating the variety of cheeses I was eating because of the warning. I use only cheese curds and mozzarella, when eating them cold, and cheddar I melt, hopefully killing the questionable stuff.

I can understand that. I was thinking about those of us who are already having to limit foods due to digestive and/or other health issues and/or lack of availability. Because I have issues with starch and fiber but also meat—it crashes my blood sugar and causes adrenaline attacks—that doesn’t leave a lot of food choices for me so cutting out dairy with added cultures too would mean a diet of mostly liquids. No thank you. Not for me. As a foodie and honestly, a human with a well-functioning jaw, I see that as a punishment. lol

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Yep, from my understanding, Ray says the small intestine should be relatively sterile. I have a history of hypothyroid induced constipation and SIBO and I agree, given my experience, bacteria, even those naturally occurring in raw dairy, can definitely overpopulate the gut and cause problems. Also, starch and fiber can cause an overpopulation of bacteria, IME. Unlike starch and fiber, most cultured dairy products I’ve tried have treated me well, but then I know of people for whom the opposite is true so I’d say our intestines are probably best at determining whether or not a culture is bad?



Yep, me too, but it has mainly been members’ opinions, and their interpretation of Ray’s opinion, on the subject that I’ve read here over the years, not direct quotes from Ray, and when he told me he recommends cottage cheese and mozzarella, which typically have added cultures in the States, I wasn’t sure.



I can understand that. I was thinking about those of us who are already having to limit foods due to digestive and/or other health issues and/or lack of availability. Because I have issues with starch and fiber but also meat—it crashes my blood sugar and causes adrenaline attacks—that doesn’t leave a lot of food choices for me so cutting out dairy with added cultures too would mean a diet of mostly liquids. No thank you. Not for me. As a foodie and honestly, a human with a well-functioning jaw, I see that as a punishment. lol

I live on mostly milk, cheese, coffee, sugar, honey, and orange, apple and rainbow carrots, so I am with you, I can't afford to give up cheese either.

 

[Jennifer]

I live on mostly milk, cheese, coffee, sugar, honey, and orange, apple and rainbow carrots, so I am with you, I can't afford to give up cheese either.

Funny, replace the coffee with tea and we’re living on mostly the same foods. My only solids are cheese, eggs, flourless crêpes I make from ripe plantains, compôtes and white chocolate covered dates.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Funny, replace the coffee with tea and we’re living on mostly the same foods. My only solids are cheese, eggs, flourless crêpes I make from ripe plantains, compôtes and white chocolate covered dates.

We keep saying we are so alike

 

[Jennifer]

We keep saying we are so alike

 

[Vileplume]

I live on mostly milk, cheese, coffee, sugar, honey, and orange, apple and rainbow carrots, so I am with you, I can't afford to give up cheese either.

Hey Rinse, when you say orange and apple, do you mean orange and apple juice?

By the way, my diet is pretty similar to both yours and @Jennifer . Coffee is so weird for me—sometimes it makes me feel great, but sometimes I think I do get bloating from it, even from organic coffee. I can’t figure out why

 

[Matestube]

Hey Rinse, when you say orange and apple, do you mean orange and apple juice?

By the way, my diet is pretty similar to both yours and @Jennifer . Coffee is so weird for me—sometimes it makes me feel great, but sometimes I think I do get bloating from it, even from organic coffee. I can’t figure out why

Coffee is a natural stressor. While I also sometimes indulge, I must acknowledge it messes up quite a few functions in my body. Latest of which was making lymph nodes on my groin bulge. They dissappeared upon coffee cessation.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Hey Rinse, when you say orange and apple, do you mean orange and apple juice?

By the way, my diet is pretty similar to both yours and @Jennifer . Coffee is so weird for me—sometimes it makes me feel great, but sometimes I think I do get bloating from it, even from organic coffee. I can’t figure out why

Yeah I fresh press a peeled apple, or two, with purple carrots and throw away the starch debris. Oranges I just juice and strain through a sieve and milk with equal parts water, sweeten to taste with sugar and add a pinch of salt. It ends up tasting like a better Gatorade. Sometimes I will trade out the salt for frozen strawberries, and let them marinate for a couple of hours or even overnight and throw away the fruit. If we all drink it up real fast I can get another round of it, reusing the strawberries. When the strawberries turn a pale pink I throw them away. I do other combos using Meyer’s lemons with oranges , frozen mangos or peaches and even blueberries, but I always toss the fruit when it looks exhausted.

 

[Jennifer]

Hi @Vileplume. Coffee is weird for me, too. It goes right through me and makes me bloated, but it improves my mood and gives me such pleasant dreams. I started drinking black tea this past January and experience the same benefits but without any of the digestive issues so my reaction to coffee doesn’t seem to be due to the caffeine. It can’t be because of mycotoxins since it happens even with mycotoxin-free coffee. I don’t react negatively to brewed cacao so I’m wondering if it has something to do with the processing of the bean after the coffee cherry has gone through the initial fermentation process? I don’t know much about coffee so I just did a quick search to see how the bean is processed and it appears that not all beans are fermented prior to roasting, which makes me wonder if coffee from beans that were fermented might cause less digestive distress for those with sensitive intestines?

How Is Coffee Fermented and How to Make It at Home?

From seed to cup, you’ll be surprised at the role of fermentation and how its different stages open a new world of aromas, flavours, and depth to your coffee.

theprimadonnalife.com

@Matestube, that’s crazy! Do you know what it is about coffee that has that effect on you?

 

[Jennifer]

Sometimes I will trade out the salt for frozen strawberries, and let them marinate for a couple of hours or even overnight and throw away the fruit. If we all drink it up real fast I can get another round of it, reusing the strawberries. When the strawberries turn a pale pink I throw them away. I do other combos using Meyer’s lemons with oranges , frozen mangos or peaches and even blueberries, but I always toss the fruit when it looks exhausted.

I hope you don’t mind me butting in on your conversation with Tyler, but do you mean you marinate the strawberries in the orange juice and sugar or you just let them marinate in their own juice and take that juice and add it to the sweetened orange juice mixture?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I hope you don’t mind me butting in on your conversation with Tyler, but do you mean you marinate the strawberries in the orange juice and sugar or you just let them marinate in their own juice and take that juice and add it to the sweetened orange juice mixture?

I make my orange and water mixture and put a cup of whole frozen strawberries in the mix, or other frozen fruit, and let them defrost and release their juices. It is a good way to extract the vitamins from the fruit, without their seeds or pulp. I make flavored water that way too, without any added sugar. Let the frozen fruit be your ice cubes. You will be surprised how much flavor comes out of the fruit after a couple of hours. Put the mix together before bed and the juice is really flavorful overnight!

 

[Vileplume]

Coffee is a natural stressor. While I also sometimes indulge, I must acknowledge it messes up quite a few functions in my body. Latest of which was making lymph nodes on my groin bulge. They dissappeared upon coffee cessation.

Echoing Jennifer’s question, I wonder what it is about coffee that had that effect?

For me the negative effects seem entirely due to digestion, but not every coffee causes those effects.

 

[Vileplume]

Yeah I fresh press a peeled apple, or two, with purple carrots and throw away the starch debris. Oranges I just juice and strain through a sieve and milk with equal parts water, sweeten to taste with sugar and add a pinch of salt. It ends up tasting like a better Gatorade. Sometimes I will trade out the salt for frozen strawberries, and let them marinate for a couple of hours or even overnight and throw away the fruit. If we all drink it up real fast I can get another round of it, reusing the strawberries. When the strawberries turn a pale pink I throw them away. I do other combos using Meyer’s lemons with oranges , frozen mangos or peaches and even blueberries, but I always toss the fruit when it looks exhausted.

Sounds delicious, Rinse. Where do you find the sweetest oranges to buy?