Lipedema- irreversible fat? Is surgical removal required?

[MAG]

It is believed by most that lipedema fat, usually accumulated in the lower body, is irreversible and can not be lost by a caloric deficit.

Ray was once asked about this and responded that by fixing hormones, lipedema fat can be reversed. However, this seems to be a newer phenomenon so I wonder if he may have mistaken the term in question for typical edema or water retention in the legs, I could be wrong.

When lipedema fat is removed surgically, hard pebble looking fat is shown removed from the legs. It can be felt through the skin as pea shaped rather than smooth.


What do you guys think? Can this type of fat be used as energy like any other fat or is liposuction required, similar to gynecomastia?

 

[Ras]

I wonder if injectable cryolipolysis would work: Injection Cryolipolysis: First-in-human Study

 

[mostlylurking]

It is believed by most that lipedema fat, usually accumulated in the lower body, is irreversible and can not be lost by a caloric deficit.

Ray was once asked about this and responded that by fixing hormones, lipedema fat can be reversed. However, this seems to be a newer phenomenon so I wonder if he may have mistaken the term in question for typical edema or water retention in the legs, I could be wrong.

When lipedema fat is removed surgically, hard pebble looking fat is shown removed from the legs. It can be felt through the skin as pea shaped rather than smooth.


What do you guys think? Can this type of fat be used as energy like any other fat or is liposuction required, similar to gynecomastia?

I went over to the Lipedema Foundation and looked around. This foundation was created in 2015. I also watched a little of a video, Comparing Nutrition Plans for the Lipedema 31. I gave it up when they showed a group of "healthy fats" which were all polyunsaturated.

I think Lipedema is a problem with fat that is laid down because of consumption of polyunsaturated fats. I think that high estrogen exacerbates the problem. Since polyunsaturated fat is estrogenic and since estrogen is inflammatory, it makes sense that this type of fat would be inflamed and would hurt.

Edema and estrogen is a complicated topic. Here's a good article:

When energy fails: Edema, heart failure, hypertension, sarcopenia, etc.

The concept of a developmental field is essential for understanding embryology, because things that exist on a scale bigger than molecules and cells govern the functions of the molecules and cells, and the principles of embryology don't arbitrarily stop operating at birth, but can be seen to...

raypeat.com

If the sufferer were to change their eating habits to avoid all polyunsaturated fats and focused instead on a diet based on Ray Peat's teachings I think that the situation would improve. Getting estrogen dominance reined in would also be helpful. A healthy functioning liver is needed to detox estrogen.

I think that it's important to understand that the body stores toxins in the fat. If a lot of fat is released quickly then the toxin load can be overwhelming to the system. The main toxin being stored is dietary polyunsaturated fats which can wreak havoc when released.

It is believed by most that lipedema fat, usually accumulated in the lower body, is irreversible and can not be lost by a caloric deficit.

Because the stored fat is highly polyunsaturated, the body does not want to burn it as fuel; it releases toxins when it breaks down (prostaglandins). The body wants to burn saturated fat instead; this preference makes the stored fat more highly polyunsaturated.

suggested reading:

Membranes, plasma membranes, and surfaces

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Fats, functions and malfunctions.

There is a growing recognition that a persistent increase of free fatty acids in the serum, which is seen in shock, heart failure, and aging, indicates a bad prognosis, but there is no generally recognized explanation for the fact that free fatty acids are harmful. I want to mention some...

raypeat.com

Fats and degeneration

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Ray was once asked about this and responded that by fixing hormones, lipedema fat can be reversed.

Getting estrogen dominance under control is really important. Polyunsaturated fat is estrogenic and it is toxic. Losing a lot of stored polyunsaturated fat safely takes time because it is toxic.

Suggested reading:

Immunodeficiency, dioxins, stress, and the hormones

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Blocking Tissue Destruction

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Natural Estrogens

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

However, this seems to be a newer phenomenon so I wonder if he may have mistaken the term in question for typical edema or water retention in the legs, I could be wrong.

I think it is not so much a "newer phenomenon"; I think it's the result of eating polyunsaturated fats (estrogenic) and being estrogen dominant. The Powers that Be have been promoting polyunsaturated fats for decades (since the 1950's?).

When lipedema fat is removed surgically, hard pebble looking fat is shown removed from the legs. It can be felt through the skin as pea shaped rather than smooth.

Cellulite? Cellulite - Wikipedia

Can this type of fat be used as energy like any other fat

Polyunsaturated fat is not the body's fuel of choice. The body wants to burn saturated fat. Getting rid of a boat load of body fat that is polyunsaturated will take some time because it is toxic. If you try to force the body to burn it in order to lose the weight quickly, the dieter will get some serious health problems.

a video for you:

View: https://youtu.be/ZqAZI_nh_yI?t=43

 

[Mauritio]

It is believed by most that lipedema fat, usually accumulated in the lower body, is irreversible and can not be lost by a caloric deficit.

Ray was once asked about this and responded that by fixing hormones, lipedema fat can be reversed. However, this seems to be a newer phenomenon so I wonder if he may have mistaken the term in question for typical edema or water retention in the legs, I could be wrong.

When lipedema fat is removed surgically, hard pebble looking fat is shown removed from the legs. It can be felt through the skin as pea shaped rather than smooth.


What do you guys think? Can this type of fat be used as energy like any other fat or is liposuction required, similar to gynecomastia?

I'm not sure if you referred to the question that I asked him on that topic .

I asked him because I'm a PT and I had a couple of patients that struggled with lipedema and I think he was aware of what exactly that condition and was.

I remember I felt a certain reluctance of him to say that it's not reversible ,which does not mean that it's easy to reverse or that anybody has ever done it.

I rather think that's a sign of rays believe that with the right environment and nutrition almost anything is reversible .

I agree with that. I think lipedema is hypothyroidism in a nut shell. All the patients I saw where textbook-hypothyroid and estrogen dominant. Even in school they taught us that there's a correlation between hypothyroidism and lipedema. So I'd make it a priority to make a thyroid supplement work.

 

[MAG]

I'm not sure if you referred to the question that I asked him on that topic .

I asked him because I'm a PT and I had a couple of patients that struggled with lipedema and I think he was aware of what exactly that condition and was.

I remember I felt a certain reluctance of him to say that it's not reversible ,which does not mean that it's easy to reverse or that anybody has ever done it.

I rather think that's a sign of rays believe that with the right environment and nutrition almost anything is reversible .

I agree with that. I think lipedema is hypothyroidism in a nut shell. All the patients I saw were textbook-hypothyroid and estrogen dominant. Even in school they taught us that there's a correlation between hypothyroidism and lipedema. So I'd make it a priority to make a thyroid supplement

I'm not sure if you referred to the question that I asked him on that topic .

I asked him because I'm a PT and I had a couple of patients that struggled with lipedema and I think he was aware of what exactly that condition and was.

I remember I felt a certain reluctance of him to say that it's not reversible ,which does not mean that it's easy to reverse or that anybody has ever done it.

I rather think that's a sign of rays believe that with the right environment and nutrition almost anything is reversible .

I agree with that. I think lipedema is hypothyroidism in a nut shell. All the patients I saw where textbook-hypothyroid and estrogen dominant. Even in school they taught us that there's a correlation between hypothyroidism and lipedema. So I'd make it a priority to make a thyroid supplement work.

Thank you for sharing more and asking the original question! I agree and I was intrigued that someone challenged this idea that it’s irreversible.

 

[MAG]

I went over to the Lipedema Foundation and looked around. This foundation was created in 2015. I also watched a little of a video, Comparing Nutrition Plans for the Lipedema 31. I gave it up when they showed a group of "healthy fats" which were all polyunsaturated.

I think Lipedema is a problem with fat that is laid down because of consumption of polyunsaturated fats. I think that high estrogen exacerbates the problem. Since polyunsaturated fat is estrogenic and since estrogen is inflammatory, it makes sense that this type of fat would be inflamed and would hurt.

Edema and estrogen is a complicated topic. Here's a good article:

When energy fails: Edema, heart failure, hypertension, sarcopenia, etc.

The concept of a developmental field is essential for understanding embryology, because things that exist on a scale bigger than molecules and cells govern the functions of the molecules and cells, and the principles of embryology don't arbitrarily stop operating at birth, but can be seen to...

raypeat.com

If the sufferer were to change their eating habits to avoid all polyunsaturated fats and focused instead on a diet based on Ray Peat's teachings I think that the situation would improve. Getting estrogen dominance reined in would also be helpful. A healthy functioning liver is needed to detox estrogen.

I think that it's important to understand that the body stores toxins in the fat. If a lot of fat is released quickly then the toxin load can be overwhelming to the system. The main toxin being stored is dietary polyunsaturated fats which can wreak havoc when released.


Because the stored fat is highly polyunsaturated, the body does not want to burn it as fuel; it releases toxins when it breaks down (prostaglandins). The body wants to burn saturated fat instead; this preference makes the stored fat more highly polyunsaturated.

suggested reading:

Membranes, plasma membranes, and surfaces

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Fats, functions and malfunctions.

There is a growing recognition that a persistent increase of free fatty acids in the serum, which is seen in shock, heart failure, and aging, indicates a bad prognosis, but there is no generally recognized explanation for the fact that free fatty acids are harmful. I want to mention some...

raypeat.com

Fats and degeneration

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Getting estrogen dominance under control is really important. Polyunsaturated fat is estrogenic and it is toxic. Losing a lot of stored polyunsaturated fat safely takes time because it is toxic.

Suggested reading:

Immunodeficiency, dioxins, stress, and the hormones

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Blocking Tissue Destruction

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Natural Estrogens

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

I think it is not so much a "newer phenomenon"; I think it's the result of eating polyunsaturated fats (estrogenic) and being estrogen dominant. The Powers that Be have been promoting polyunsaturated fats for decades (since the 1950's?).

Cellulite? Cellulite - Wikipedia

Polyunsaturated fat is not the body's fuel of choice. The body wants to burn saturated fat. Getting rid of a boat load of body fat that is polyunsaturated will take some time because it is toxic. If you try to force the body to burn it in order to lose the weight quickly, the dieter will get some serious health problems.

a video for you:

View: https://youtu.be/ZqAZI_nh_yI?t=

I went over to the Lipedema Foundation and looked around. This foundation was created in 2015. I also watched a little of a video, Comparing Nutrition Plans for the Lipedema 31. I gave it up when they showed a group of "healthy fats" which were all polyunsaturated.

I think Lipedema is a problem with fat that is laid down because of consumption of polyunsaturated fats. I think that high estrogen exacerbates the problem. Since polyunsaturated fat is estrogenic and since estrogen is inflammatory, it makes sense that this type of fat would be inflamed and would hurt.

Edema and estrogen is a complicated topic. Here's a good article:

When energy fails: Edema, heart failure, hypertension, sarcopenia, etc.

The concept of a developmental field is essential for understanding embryology, because things that exist on a scale bigger than molecules and cells govern the functions of the molecules and cells, and the principles of embryology don't arbitrarily stop operating at birth, but can be seen to...

raypeat.com

If the sufferer were to change their eating habits to avoid all polyunsaturated fats and focused instead on a diet based on Ray Peat's teachings I think that the situation would improve. Getting estrogen dominance reined in would also be helpful. A healthy functioning liver is needed to detox estrogen.

I think that it's important to understand that the body stores toxins in the fat. If a lot of fat is released quickly then the toxin load can be overwhelming to the system. The main toxin being stored is dietary polyunsaturated fats which can wreak havoc when released.


Because the stored fat is highly polyunsaturated, the body does not want to burn it as fuel; it releases toxins when it breaks down (prostaglandins). The body wants to burn saturated fat instead; this preference makes the stored fat more highly polyunsaturated.

suggested reading:

Membranes, plasma membranes, and surfaces

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Unsaturated fatty acids: Nutritionally essential, or toxic?

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Unsaturated Vegetable Oils: Toxic

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Fats, functions and malfunctions.

There is a growing recognition that a persistent increase of free fatty acids in the serum, which is seen in shock, heart failure, and aging, indicates a bad prognosis, but there is no generally recognized explanation for the fact that free fatty acids are harmful. I want to mention some...

raypeat.com

Fats and degeneration

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Getting estrogen dominance under control is really important. Polyunsaturated fat is estrogenic and it is toxic. Losing a lot of stored polyunsaturated fat safely takes time because it is toxic.

Suggested reading:

Immunodeficiency, dioxins, stress, and the hormones

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Blocking Tissue Destruction

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Natural Estrogens

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

I think it is not so much a "newer phenomenon"; I think it's the result of eating polyunsaturated fats (estrogenic) and being estrogen dominant. The Powers that Be have been promoting polyunsaturated fats for decades (since the 1950's?).

Cellulite? Cellulite - Wikipedia

Polyunsaturated fat is not the body's fuel of choice. The body wants to burn saturated fat. Getting rid of a boat load of body fat that is polyunsaturated will take some time because it is toxic. If you try to force the body to burn it in order to lose the weight quickly, the dieter will get some serious health problems.

a video for you:

View: https://youtu.be/ZqAZI_nh_yI?t=43

This was gold. Thank you

 

[mostlylurking]

@MAG , you're welcome.

 

[Peater]

I don't understand the mechanism but i think iodine can resaturate PUFAs. I know Ray didn't support it as a supplement but maybe if injected directly it could do its thing and liberate the fat safely. Just pondering, i have no idea.

 

[mostlylurking]

I don't understand the mechanism but i think iodine can resaturate PUFAs. I know Ray didn't support it as a supplement but maybe if injected directly it could do its thing and liberate the fat safely. Just pondering, i have no idea.

Vitamin E can be taken after/when being exposed to a little pufa and it will saturate it. What you are proposing (injecting iodine) sounds very dangerous.

 

[mostlylurking]

@MAG You might want to look into the protectiveness of niacinamide as it pertains to pufa coming out of the fat cells and into the blood stream.

Ray Peat, PhD Quotes on Therapeutic Effects of Niacinamide – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

“It’s the stored PUFA, released by stress or hunger, that slow metabolism. Niacinamide helps to lower free fatty acids, and good nutrition will allow the liver to slowly detoxify the PUFA, if it isn’t being flooded with large amounts of them. A small amount of coconut oil with each meal will increase the ability to oxidize fat, by momentarily stopping the antithyroid effect of the PUFA. Aspirin is another thing that reduces the stress-related increase of free fatty acids, stimulating metabolism. Taking a thyroid supplement is reasonable until the ratio of saturated fats to PUFA is about 2 to 1.”
also this one:

Glycemia, starch, and sugar in context

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

"Niacinamide, used in moderate doses, can safely help to restrain the excessive production of free fatty acids, and also helps to limit the wasteful conversion of glucose into fat. There is evidence that diabetics are chronically deficient in niacin. Excess fatty acids in the blood probably divert tryptophan from niacin synthesis into serotonin synthesis."

 

[Peater]

Vitamin E can be taken after/when being exposed to a little pufa and it will saturate it

Good point

 

[Peaterpeater]

I remember Ray Peat mentioning a lady he knew who had a lower body several times larger than the size of her upper body was able to correct the issue with several grains of thyroid, much more than the average 2-3 grains. I wish I could remember which podcast that he mentions this.

I don’t advocate using a lot of thyroid medication because I lost my hair, which never grew back after using a little more than 2 grains of thyroid. But the takeaway is that people with Lipedema are more than likely hypothyroid. The problem is that correcting hypothyroidism (for many people) is not as simple as just taking thyroid meds. You have to get your whole life balanced along with the medication for it to really work. That is my experience. Thyroid meds plus Ray peat-style diet, plus vitamin e or progest e, plus good consistent sleep, plus daily sun, plus low stress lifestyle, plus good movement but not excessive exercise, plus a good environment with lower pollution, plus less EMF, plus low toxic relationships etc. This is what helped me after many many years of trying to make it work. It wasn’t an easy or quick fix for me. I wish you all the best.

Also, high altitude living may expedite things if you are able to move to a high altitude location.

 

[MAG]

I remember Ray Peat mentioning a lady he knew who had a lower body several times larger than the size of her upper body was able to correct the issue with several grains of thyroid, much more than the average 2-3 grains. I wish I could remember which podcast that he mentions this.

I don’t advocate using a lot of thyroid medication because I lost my hair, which never grew back after using a little more than 2 grains of thyroid. But the takeaway is that people with Lipedema are more than likely hypothyroid. The problem is that correcting hypothyroidism (for many people) is not as simple as just taking thyroid meds. You have to get your whole life balanced along with the medication for it to really work. That is my experience. Thyroid meds plus Ray peat-style diet, plus vitamin e or progest e, plus good consistent sleep, plus daily sun, plus low stress lifestyle, plus good movement but not excessive exercise, plus a good environment with lower pollution, plus less EMF, plus low toxic relationships etc. This is what helped me after many many years of trying to make it work. It wasn’t an easy or quick fix for me. I wish you all the best.

Also, high altitude living may expedite things if you are able to move to a high altitude location.

This sounds like a great approach. Thank you!