Limiting The Effects Of Endurance Exercise

[SolidSteele]

Just thought I'd run an idea through you guys to see if this makes sense.

I'm a fitness coach and as such I have to deal with a lot of people that use endurance exercise (i.e. running, cycling, etc) as a fitness metric. I do my best to educate people on the effects of endurance exercise but there are those whose beliefs are so engrained that they simply won't listen and then there are those just love it and will never give it up no matter the downsides.

My current understanding is that endurance exercise depletes muscle glycogen then liver glycogen so that the body releases cortisol and adrenaline to mobilise FFA and breakdown muscle tissues. Also if the intensity is to high it promotes glycolysis leading to excessive amounts of lactate. If that's not correct feel free to correct me.

My question is: if you were to limit the intensity (using heart rate, nose-only breathing, wattage limits, etc.) so that the intensity is low enough to be aerobic and incorporated taurine to improve liver glycogen and use a fuel like OJ with bi-carb soda or glucose gels during training session to try and stop blood sugar dropping too low, would that mitigate some of the negative effects of endurance exercise?

Any thoughts.

 

[marikay]

Just thought I'd run an idea through you guys to see if this makes sense.

I'm a fitness coach and as such I have to deal with a lot of people that use endurance exercise (i.e. running, cycling, etc) as a fitness metric. I do my best to educate people on the effects of endurance exercise but there are those whose beliefs are so engrained that they simply won't listen and then there are those just love it and will never give it up no matter the downsides.

My current understanding is that endurance exercise depletes muscle glycogen then liver glycogen so that the body releases cortisol and adrenaline to mobilise FFA and breakdown muscle tissues. Also if the intensity is to high it promotes glycolysis leading to excessive amounts of lactate. If that's not correct feel free to correct me.

My question is: if you were to limit the intensity (using heart rate, nose-only breathing, wattage limits, etc.) so that the intensity is low enough to be aerobic and incorporated taurine to improve liver glycogen and use a fuel like OJ with bi-carb soda or glucose gels during training session to try and stop blood sugar dropping too low, would that mitigate some of the negative effects of endurance exercise?

Any thoughts.

I'm certainly no expert but my understanding is that Ray believes any and all aerobic exercise is detrimental to health no matter how it's achieved. That kind of exercise suppresses thyroid and keeps resting heart rate low. And low heart rate is not healthy. This is one of my biggest regrets. I ran marathons and believed I was doing myself a favor by having a low resting heart rate. Big mistake.

 

[Tarmander]

Yeah I was a long distance swimmer when I was younger. Probably was good for me at first with all the sun and extra food I ate, but in the later years, the exposure to constant chlorine and restricted calories really was a detriment. If the person is young, they really can handle a bit of endurance exercise without much detriment.

What you suggested will definitely help. However, in my own experiments, I have found that even with a nice helping of sugar and taurine, my tissues can still produce cortisol and stress hormones if I push it. I have literally eating 200g of sugar and exercised and still felt the effects verse a day doing nothing. Sometimes, as a trainer, all you can do is make suggestions. Now and then, someone will listen to you after some years of messing up.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think the damage is what makes it pleasurable, so I doubt it.

 

[Simonsays]

I do my best to educate people on the effects of endurance exercise but there are those whose beliefs are so engrained that they simply won't listen and then there are those just love it and will never give it up no matter the downsides.

There you have it. For many its an unacknowledged addiction.

 

[SolidSteele]

There you have it. For many its an unacknowledged addiction.

As someone who has seen proper exercise addiction, which is health and life destroying, I'd say the term "many" is unjustified. I've met hundreds of runners and I've only really come across 1 or 2 that you would classify as addictive behaviour and those individuals were not just running, it was 1 of maybe 2 or 3 daily workouts. The problem is our innate conformation bias. People hold onto their beliefs and when you confront them with a idea that is so fundamentally different they are always going to be resistant. Especially when there is so much conflicting information around.

 

[CarbAppreciator]

I would definitely make use of the sports gels, and use juices or mag/cal bicarb water for hydration. I think most of the serious damage comes from the lactic acid build up in the muscles, so resting once you are "feeling the burn" is a useful practice.

 

[Such_Saturation]

You won't feel any burning if you're trained.

 

[Ahanu]

You won't feel any burning if you're trained.

If you stay in your comfort zone

 

[Such_Saturation]

If you stay in your comfort zone

Yeah...

 

[Simonsays]

I've met hundreds of runners and I've only really come across 1 or 2 that you would classify as addictive behaviour

How did you come to the conclusion that only 1 or 2 were showing addictive behaviour? What tests did you apply that it wasnt addictive behaviour?

The best form of treatment of addiction, is abstinence.

If you confronted them with the numerous studies that it might be harming them. Maybe switch to weights. Do you think they might be persuaded? Would you want to?

Ray Peat, PhD: Quotes Relating to Exercise – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

 

[Parsifal]

You won't feel any burning if you're trained.

So does it mean that it is not detrimental in that case (that the body can take care of lactic acid)?

 

[Such_Saturation]

So does it mean that it is not detrimental in that case (that the body can take care of lactic acid)?

I imagine it is still not entirely adapted. But the true damage comes from the adaptations to the endurance.

 

[SolidSteele]

How did you come to the conclusion that only 1 or 2 were showing addictive behaviour? What tests did you apply that it wasnt addictive behaviour?

The best form of treatment of addiction, is abstinence.

If you confronted them with the numerous studies that it might be harming them. Maybe switch to weights. Do you think they might be persuaded? Would you want to?

Ray Peat, PhD: Quotes Relating to Exercise – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

I didn't run any specific tests just observation. The absolute worst case was a woman who would get up at every morning at about 5am to do 45-60 minutes of jogging before work, do a full days work with a walk at lunchtime depending on the weather, then do a 2 hour resistance training session in the evening then got home and by the time she got everything ready for the next day she was only sleeping 5-6 hours a night. This was everyday with exception that she didn't work on the weekends.

She was so convinced that she would be happy if she could just lose a little bit more weight, which never made her happy so the was stuck in this vicious self perpetuating cycle. I gave her all the info I had on why what she doing was wrong but it didn't alter her beliefs at all. Not having anywhere near the training to deal with a case like this the only way I could alter her routine was to train her 3 times a week for free so that I could hopefully build up enough trust that she'd take my ideas on board but the gym scene is so screwed up while I was saying "dial it back" she had the rest of the gym saying "I wish I had you discipline. Keep up the good work." and that included the trainers who were taught that it's just calories in vs. calories ergo more work is good. After a while when she wasn't getting the results she wanted with me she went to another trainer who taught her a bunch of body builder cutting tricks and she ended up unhappy, emaciated and perpetually fatigued and still went down as a win in that trainer's mind. Which was really sad to watch.

On a happier, note a couple of years later she met a guy through work. Which made her a lot happier and she magically got her weight to a healthy range with a good composition all because her priorities shifted away spending all her time in the gym so she was training less. Funny that.

 

[Simonsays]

So the moral of the story is the artificial high??? she was getting by constant exercising (that was really making her ill) , was replaced by a more natural high that comes from a good relationship. A lesson to us all.

 

[Newbophyte]

I dunno, but I can say for sure it's definitely exhilarating to ride around here. I find running too intense for my style, but a slower-paced cycling jaunt through the woods is really rewarding.

 

[tyler]

I have done heavy endurance training and racing with great success on RP style diet/lifestyle.
I did a 4 month cycling stint where I was riding over 150 miles per week- and my fitness (in terms of cycling stats) where incredibly impressive for someone just picking up the sport. I raced a century (100 miles) after only four months of training and came in first with a time of 4hr 45min. I've always been good at endurance but RP principles brought
I don't think endurance exercise is good for you at all, but sometimes I'm willing to risk my health for a little fun.
Number one, avoid fasted exercise at all costs.
OJ/bicarb/caffeine before and during exercise. The addition of bicarb to the mixture was huge for me. Cut down on muscle fatigue immensely.
Glycine/taurine/OJ mixture after riding and I could literally watch the the swelling in my face go down.
Daily vitamin E, aspirin, and niacinimide... just to do what I can to lower FFA in the blood stream. But when you exercise at intensity it's bound to happen.
So yeah, when I say "success" I mean in terms of succeeding at the sport. It was undoubtedly detrimental to my overall health, and I haven't rode seriously since that first and only race. But I did have fun doing it and training for it so yeah. I think all your ideas are good. I think most importantly to make sure there is a stream of fuel throughout the session, and adequate glycogen stores.

 

[tyler]

Oh and as been mentioned here, make sure their relationship with the sport or activity is healthy. That's important. If they are miserable throughout the experience, I have no doubt that it will make the physical detriment even worse.

 

[AlexFergus]

Hi.
I'm still very new to the RP world (Low carb/primal/kruse background) so excuse my ignorance, but I would love to know more about this subject. I am an avid athlete (29yr male, background in rowing, powerlifting, bodybuilding, sprint cycling) and though I am still looking at improving my health (rock bottom T levels over the past 6-7 years) I really love training and competing.
Yes I understand that sports performance may come at the cost of health, I understand and accept that. But I personally LOVE competing, plus everything that goes with it (the camaraderie, the travelling, the celebrations of achieving a goal etc etc). I had turned to primal and Jk's protocol in order to improve both my health and then hopefully my performance ( I took a few years off from serious training to aid my recovery) but after a few years I don't seem to have improved much health wise (I've gone from rock bottom T levels to really low T levels!)

Now I have been introduced to Ray Peats protocols, and even though I'm still only a week into reading his material, it's starting to make a lot of sense...

So now my question is this:
Can I continue to compete at a high level (in this case Rowing - 6minute long races, so not true endurance racing, but the training consists of a lot of longer rows) while following a Ray Peat style diet and:
A) perform well (i,e is this diet approach supportive of sports performance),
B) modify/supplement the diet so that I minimize the damage done through excessive training, and,
C) Improve my health


Or am I asking too much?!
@tyler - I would love to hear more about your protocols.

Cheers

 

[Constatine]

Cardio had a lot of down sides but once your body adapts to the stressor it is slightly less bad (but still bad). People who train every day lose muscle mass...until their bodies efficiently adapt to the protocol and starts minimizing the damage. Bottom line in an experienced athlete who has done cardio training for a long time it is not detrimental to the system but is by no means good for the athlete. There are many supplements that would decrease cardio's negative effect on the body just visit ergo-log.com. Ergo log is a stockpile of scientific studies regarding ergogenic aids (muscle stuff). Note that there are many crappy studies out there so its up to you to read between the lines. In my opinion ashwagandha is one of the better substances out there to reduce muscle damage, promote muscle growth, increase thyroid, and protect someone from the negative effects of ***t work outs. The only reason I don't take ashwagandha anymore is because I would get hyperthyroidism every time I tried it.
You can also just tell your clients to do sprints and watch their faces grow sad...