Lies About Progesterone?

alywest

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Wherever I look (besides Ray Peat and RP inspired people's writings) there is this tendency to make progesterone out to be the thing that causes all the miserable aspects of PMS and pregnancy.

According to one article I read the rise in progesterone during the last two weeks of the month before menstruation is what causes breast tenderness and mood swings. In a normal cycle, progesterone is low during the first two weeks while estrogen increases. During that second week you're supposed to feel super horny and then you ovulate which brings estrogen down and the progesterone levels rise.


Female-Hormone-Cycle-Chart-Hormonology.jpg


In a normal woman who actually has healthy levels of the hormones (as seen above) I would think PMS wouldn't exist, however we all know that estrogen dominance is a thing and that is why the rise in progesterone levels doesn't counteract the fact that estrogen levels are still high when they're actually supposed to drop below estrogen during the second two weeks. So how can "they" say that it's progesterone's fault? Are they saying that a healthy woman is supposed to suffer PMS symptoms, that that is natural and healthy?

Then if you read the typical pregnancy article, progesterone is blamed for the fact that we are constipated and have severe headaches. If that's true, then how come when I take progesterone orally my headaches go away? It says in one particular article: "Progesterone also causes relaxation of blood vessels, which can lead to increased blood flow to the brain, and severe headaches and migraines."

It goes on to say: "According to the Mayo Clinic, an increase in progesterone during pregnancy can be associated with negative mood swings such as depression. The unstable levels of hormones such as progesterone can lead to mood swings in pregnant women. Because progesterone causes relaxation of smooth muscles, it also affects the smooth muscles of the nostrils, and leads to congestion seen with stuffy nostrils."

2919_Hormones_Initiating_Labor-02.jpg


According to this chart progesterone is relatively low during the first trimester (when most of the morning sickness and headache symptoms occur) so how on Earth are they still saying that it's progesterone's fault? Clearly hGC is the culprit at least behind the nausea and headaches that are during those first 12 weeks. Besides that progesterone and estrogen remain pretty even until labor when progesterone has to drop in order for contractions to occur. And that in itself should be a clue as to how evil estrogen is (if you've ever experienced contractions.) It's like being electrocuted over and over again, it's pretty much unbearable for most women,, and I would guess that the women who are able to tolerate labor are the ones who probably maintain a steadier level of progesterone until the end.

Obviously the progesterone has to drop enough to allow for contractions to occur, but there must be a certain ratio that is maintained allowing for a woman to tolerate the pain. Sometimes epidural is what allows a woman to relax enough to even have the baby as some women who attempt a drug free birth can't make any progress (baby doesn't move down the birth canal.) If there was a certain ratio of progesterone injected I wonder if epidural wouldn't be totally necessary. I'd be willing to experiment with progesterone during labor. Once you're in full on labor it's happening no matter what so progesterone isn't going to stop the birth from happening.

Progesterone relaxes the muscles. Has anyone else ever heard of a muscle relaxer causing headaches? That is just absurd. I think this is an issue with the medical establishment wanting to ensure that estrogen continues to be looked at as a good thing, but women in general should be standing up to this nonsense and saying that we want the facts and not some filtered down bull**** that tell us that we should be loving our estrogen and hating the progesterone.


 
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alywest

alywest

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Another article on the same website as I cited earlier (livestrong.com) says these a re the symptoms of low progesterone during pregnancy:

Breast Tenderness
The Labor of Love, a website dedicated to pregnancy and parenting, says that breast tenderness is normal during late pregnancy, but it might be a sign of low progesterone in the first trimester, especially if it is constant.

Fatigue
Test Country suggests that if you crave sleep, but do not bounce back after a nap or a good night’s rest, you may be suffering from low progesterone levels. The Labor of Love points out that while pregnant women are often tired, if fatigue is unrelenting, you should talk to your doctor.

Low Blood Sugar
Low progesterone levels can cause low blood sugar, according to The Labor of Love. Symptoms of low blood sugar include feeling light-headed or clammy and sweaty. You can eat more to regulate your blood sugar, but this won’t address the underlying problem if low progesterone is to blame.

Vaginal Dryness
Since progesterone spurs the production of vaginal mucus, you will feel uncomfortable and dry without it, notes The Labor of Love. If you suddenly notice a difference, consult your doctor. Your progesterone level may have dropped.

Spotting
Spotting can be a normal part of pregnancy, but should always be reported to your doctor immediately, especially if it is heavy, The Labor of Love cautions. It can be caused by problems other than low progesterone and can be a warning of miscarriage, although low progesterone is one cause.

Other Symptoms
Low progesterone can also cause psychological and cognitive problems. Although mood swings are common in pregnancy as all hormone levels fluctuate, consult your doctor if you’re having trouble remembering things or if you feel unaccountably depressed, especially in the first trimester. Some women may experience panic attacks. The Test Country website also cites an unexplained increase in weight as a symptom, although this, too, is a common development in pregnancy.

"
 

x-ray peat

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In a normal woman who actually has healthy levels of the hormones (as seen above) I would think PMS wouldn't exist, however we all know that estrogen dominance is a thing and that is why the rise in progesterone levels doesn't counteract the fact that estrogen levels are still high when they're actually supposed to drop below estrogen during the second two weeks. So how can "they" say that it's progesterone's fault? Are they saying that a healthy woman is supposed to suffer PMS symptoms, that that is natural and healthy?
Not saying I have any idea what is the truth but if you think about it from an evolutionary view it would makes sense that there would be many carrot and sticks that have evolved to make women conceive as often as possible. PMS may just be one of those evolutionary sticks that played a part in the success of the species.
 

jitsmonkey

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a) for your own well being stop reading anything on Livestrong.com.
b) all of the mainstream medical discussion is based upon blood quantities of estrogen, tissue bound estrogen is never
discussed or considered. This would be akin to the police showing up to a crack house walking the perimeter and declaring the house safe without ever looking inside.

Ray has written about all of this extensively and answered your questions in depth.
I recommend RayPeat.com as a place to start.
That compared to Livestrong.com will be a radical upgrade in source quality and will also help your understanding as to the discrepancies you're noticing.
 
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alywest

alywest

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Not saying I have any idea what is the truth but if you think about it from an evolutionary view it would makes sense that there would be many carrot and sticks that have evolved to make women conceive as often as possible. PMS may just be one of those evolutionary sticks that played a part in the success of the species.
How does PMS play a role in the success of the species?
 
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alywest

alywest

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a) for your own well being stop reading anything on Livestrong.com.
b) all of the mainstream medical discussion is based upon blood quantities of estrogen, tissue bound estrogen is never
discussed or considered. This would be akin to the police showing up to a crack house walking the perimeter and declaring the house safe without ever looking inside.

Ray has written about all of this extensively and answered your questions in depth.
I recommend RayPeat.com as a place to start.
That compared to Livestrong.com will be a radical upgrade in source quality and will also help your understanding as to the discrepancies you're noticing.

LOL, I get what you're saying about Livestrong.com but I was trying to make a point that these are the things mainstream doctors and other experts are telling us (women) about hormones. It is really frustrating as a woman to continuously be told "you should consume more omega 6 and 3 and the reason you're moody is because of progesterone." So naturally women want to keep their estrogen up and they associate it with positive things. Estrogen overstimulates the central nervous system like cocaine, and we're subtle-y being told that this is a good thing. It's keeping our moods up and our libido high! I don't even believe that estrogen is why we have higher libidos close to menstruation, if you look at the graphs our testosterone also goes up around that time, so wouldn't it make sense that the testosterone is the reason for our increased sex drives?
 

jitsmonkey

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LOL, I get what you're saying about Livestrong.com but I was trying to make a point that these are the things mainstream doctors and other experts are telling us (women) about hormones. It is really frustrating as a woman to continuously be told "you should consume more omega 6 and 3 and the reason you're moody is because of progesterone." So naturally women want to keep their estrogen up and they associate it with positive things. Estrogen overstimulates the central nervous system like cocaine, and we're subtle-y being told that this is a good thing. It's keeping our moods up and our libido high! I don't even believe that estrogen is why we have higher libidos close to menstruation, if you look at the graphs our testosterone also goes up around that time, so wouldn't it make sense that the testosterone is the reason for our increased sex drives?


I think many of the people who read Ray's work have their understandings transformed
however one thing they commonly forget, avoid, ignore or miss re: the most critical thing about "mainstream medicine" is this...

Never start with the assumption or premise that they have your best interest at heart.
or that their explanations and rationale are designed to make patients better.

Their rationale and explanations are designed to defend their behavior nothing more.
Carefully written narrative to allow the proliferation of the church doctrine.

If you start with the understanding that the Church of Medicine and its Priests are ready, willing, unapologetic and able to maim or kill you in the name of their doctrine
the contradictory things they say start to make much more sense. And become far less confusing.

One real life example: I sat in a friends hospital room 24 hours ago... he has stage 4 pancreatic adenocarcinoma
he weighs 100 pounds, he's 5'10".... I asked the doctor "why are we not giving him parenteral nutrition, in addition to the cancer he has eaten no more than 200 calories for the last 3 days, he is obviously starving to death".... her reply was "The additional calories will make the cancer worse, I do not recommend increasing his calories"

My question was not even in terms of trying to save him but simply so he'd tolerate his pain meds better and be able to think more clearly as he faces his own death.
"calories will make the cancer worse" a) a 3rd grader can explain to you the dangers of starvation b) he's a 100 pound grown man, how much worse could this get?

To assume this person has my friends best interest at heart would be 100% unadulterated madness.
She's ready, willing, unapologetic and able to kill him.

To assume the modern medical machine has anyone's best interest at heart is pure folly.

I'm not saying you should never seek medical care if you require it
and I'm not saying there is malice at the priest level
and maybe not even at the highest level.
Lack of malice doesn't remove the threat.
I am saying people need to understand who the enemy is and the lengths he/she is willing to go.
They need to understand the church of medicine sometimes has the tools/treatment/personel you need
but you are in enemy territory and the appropriate attitude, approach and behaviors are required
 
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x-ray peat

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How does PMS play a role in the success of the species?
obviously just guessing but as I tried to explain the survival of every species depends on the number of offspring that make it to reproductive age. I did a quick search and found that the intensity of premenstrual cramps often, but not always, goes down after giving birth. So the reduction of PMS can be seen as a benefit that incentivizes procreation and the ongoing intensity of PMS before procreation can be seen as a stick to discourage the lack of procreation.
6 Surprising Benefits of Pregnancy
of course these type evolutionary arguments are always hard to prove either way and there could be a several other explanations for why PMS occurs.
 
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alywest

alywest

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I think many of the people who read Ray's work have their understandings transformed
however one thing they commonly forget, avoid, ignore or miss re: the most critical thing about "mainstream medicine" is this...

Never start with the assumption or premise that they have your best interest at heart.
or that their explanations and rationale are designed to make patients better.

Their rationale and explanations are designed to defend their behavior nothing more.
Carefully written narrative to allow the proliferation of the church doctrine.

If you start with the understanding that the Church of Medicine and its Priests are ready, willing, unapologetic and able to maim or kill you in the name of their doctrine
the contradictory things they say start to make much more sense. And become far less confusing.

One real life example: I sat in a friends hospital room 24 hours ago... he has stage 4 pancreatic adenocarcinoma
he weighs 100 pounds, he's 5'10".... I asked the doctor "why are we not giving him parenteral nutrition, in addition to the cancer he has eaten no more than 200 calories for the last 3 days, he is obviously starving to death".... her reply was "The additional calories will make the cancer worse, I do not recommend increasing his calories"

My question was not even in terms of trying to save him but simply so he'd tolerate his pain meds better and be able to think more clearly as he faces his own death.
"calories will make the cancer worse" a) a 3rd grader can explain to you the dangers of starvation b) he's a 100 pound grown man, how much worse could this get?

To assume this person has my friends best interest at heart would be 100% unadulterated madness.
She's ready, willing, unapologetic and able to kill him.

To assume the modern medical machine has anyone's best interest at heart is pure folly.

I'm not saying you should never seek medical care if you require it
I am saying people need to understand who the enemy is and the lengths he/she is willing to go.
They need to understand the church of medicine sometimes has the tools/treatment/personel you need
but you are in enemy territory and the appropriate attitude, approach and behaviors are required

I'm really sorry about your friend. That is terrible and must be stressful for you, too.

The couple of times I've had to deal with hospitals and serious medical stuff I was not informed of my options at all and I had no idea what was good for me. Now that I'm learning more I feel like I could be more demanding, but still if you are at a hospital you are basically signing your life over to them and that really sucks. It's a feeling and perfectly in line with "learned helplessness."
 
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alywest

alywest

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obviously just guessing but as I tried to explain the survival of every species depends on the number of offspring that make it to reproductive age. I did a quick search and found that the intensity of premenstrual cramps often, but not always, goes down after giving birth. So the reduction of PMS can be seen as a benefit that incentivizes procreation and the ongoing intensity of PMS before procreation can be seen as a stick to discourage the lack of procreation.
6 Surprising Benefits of Pregnancy
of course these type evolutionary arguments are always hard to prove either way and there could be a several other explanations for why PMS occurs.
I don't know, my PMS and everything actually got worse after my pregnancies, but that is also because I was hypothyroid and estrogen dominant. I suppose for a normal, healthy person that could be the case. Perhaps some deep longing to get pregnant because we sense that the hormones (progesterone) would be good for us. I had a friend who told me that her headaches went away for two years after she had each of her kids, and the same happened to me with my first child, and I didn't have them for a few months after my second. But then they came back with a vengeance, even worse than before.
 

jitsmonkey

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I'm really sorry about your friend. That is terrible and must be stressful for you, too.

The couple of times I've had to deal with hospitals and serious medical stuff I was not informed of my options at all and I had no idea what was good for me. Now that I'm learning more I feel like I could be more demanding, but still if you are at a hospital you are basically signing your life over to them and that really sucks. It's a feeling and perfectly in line with "learned helplessness."


Thank you but don't miss the point....

Your question is surrounding this topic " there is this tendency to make progesterone out to be the thing that causes all the miserable aspects of PMS and pregnancy. "

the point is the doctrine is written in whatever way serves the religion/industry.
In you question of why or how do they come to these conclusions
you assume there's honesty in their conclusion
you assume they've come to this conclusion with desirable/helpful conclusion in mind.
that assumption is a serious problem.

The ultimate answer to 'why do they see X this way, yet Ray (or some other credible scientist, researcher, etc) see it completely the opposite'
Is simply "They see X the way they do because it either is the doctrine or it serves the doctrine." When this is understood, what they say and the credibility it carries
is RADICALLY minimized and then you are free to spend your time doing things/studying things of much higher value.
 

Dhair

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LOL, I get what you're saying about Livestrong.com but I was trying to make a point that these are the things mainstream doctors and other experts are telling us (women) about hormones. It is really frustrating as a woman to continuously be told "you should consume more omega 6 and 3 and the reason you're moody is because of progesterone." So naturally women want to keep their estrogen up and they associate it with positive things. Estrogen overstimulates the central nervous system like cocaine, and we're subtle-y being told that this is a good thing. It's keeping our moods up and our libido high! I don't even believe that estrogen is why we have higher libidos close to menstruation, if you look at the graphs our testosterone also goes up around that time, so wouldn't it make sense that the testosterone is the reason for our increased sex drives?
Please listen to Ray Peat's "Politics and Science" interviews about progesterone with John Barkhausen on YouTube. I believe there are 3 parts. It will answer every question that you ever had about progesterone, and Ray describes the fraud and disinfo regarding progesterone spread by the estrogen industry beginning in the early 1940s.
 
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alywest

alywest

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Thank you but don't miss the point....

Your question is surrounding this topic " there is this tendency to make progesterone out to be the thing that causes all the miserable aspects of PMS and pregnancy. "

the point is the doctrine is written in whatever way serves the religion/industry.
In you question of why or how do they come to these conclusions
you assume there's honesty in their conclusion
you assume they've come to this conclusion with desirable/helpful conclusion in mind.
that assumption is a serious problem.

The ultimate answer to 'why do they see X this way, yet Ray (or some other credible scientist, researcher, etc) see it completely the opposite'
Is simply "They see X the way they do because it either is the doctrine or it serves the doctrine." When this is understood, what they say and the credibility it carries
is RADICALLY minimized and then you are free to spend your time doing things/studying things of much higher value.

I think the most frustrating thing is that I want to help people but to train to be a doctor or something like that is absolutely pointless; it's just a brainwashing tactic to be trained as a doctor. Then there are naturopaths, but they are the same. They follow whatever their guru believes and that's usually the people above them in whatever school or clinic they train at. It has always held me back from pursuing my masters or anything because I don't know what to study, lest I become more ignorant.
 
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alywest

alywest

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Please listen to Ray Peat's "Politics and Science" interviews about progesterone with John Barkhausen on YouTube. I believe there are 3 parts. It will answer every question that you ever had about progesterone, and Ray describes the fraud and disinfo regarding progesterone spread by the estrogen industry beginning in the early 1940s.
Thanks, Dhair, I did just become acquainted with those interviews recently and they are absolutely fantastic. I think I need to listen to them 1,000 more times because each time I listen to one of RP's interviews or read his articles I pick up new things from them. I think that's the true sign of a true artist, every time you go back you get new truth from it.
 
L

lollipop

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I think many of the people who read Ray's work have their understandings transformed
however one thing they commonly forget, avoid, ignore or miss re: the most critical thing about "mainstream medicine" is this...

Never start with the assumption or premise that they have your best interest at heart.
or that their explanations and rationale are designed to make patients better.

Their rationale and explanations are designed to defend their behavior nothing more.
Carefully written narrative to allow the proliferation of the church doctrine.

If you start with the understanding that the Church of Medicine and its Priests are ready, willing, unapologetic and able to maim or kill you in the name of their doctrine
the contradictory things they say start to make much more sense. And become far less confusing.

One real life example: I sat in a friends hospital room 24 hours ago... he has stage 4 pancreatic adenocarcinoma
he weighs 100 pounds, he's 5'10".... I asked the doctor "why are we not giving him parenteral nutrition, in addition to the cancer he has eaten no more than 200 calories for the last 3 days, he is obviously starving to death".... her reply was "The additional calories will make the cancer worse, I do not recommend increasing his calories"

My question was not even in terms of trying to save him but simply so he'd tolerate his pain meds better and be able to think more clearly as he faces his own death.
"calories will make the cancer worse" a) a 3rd grader can explain to you the dangers of starvation b) he's a 100 pound grown man, how much worse could this get?

To assume this person has my friends best interest at heart would be 100% unadulterated madness.
She's ready, willing, unapologetic and able to kill him.

To assume the modern medical machine has anyone's best interest at heart is pure folly.

I'm not saying you should never seek medical care if you require it
and I'm not saying there is malice at the priest level
and maybe not even at the highest level.
Lack of malice doesn't remove the threat.
I am saying people need to understand who the enemy is and the lengths he/she is willing to go.
They need to understand the church of medicine sometimes has the tools/treatment/personel you need
but you are in enemy territory and the appropriate attitude, approach and behaviors are required
What a heartbreaking situation. Pathetic really. Hoping something helps your friend...
 

cdg

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Thanks, Dhair, I did just become acquainted with those interviews recently and they are absolutely fantastic. I think I need to listen to them 1,000 more times because each time I listen to one of RP's interviews or read his articles I pick up new things from them. I think that's the true sign of a true artist, every time you go back you get new truth from it.

ditto... ditto... it is hard to absorb the dense and priceless info in one go. Even reading the transcripts need to be done several times. We are so lucky to have someone like Ray to straighten all the propaganda!
 
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alywest

alywest

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ditto... ditto... it is hard to absorb the dense and priceless info in one go. Even reading the transcripts need to be done several times. We are so lucky to have someone like Ray to straighten all the propaganda!
True that! And adorable baby, btw!
 

Elize

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Greetings from Elize
I have Hashimoto use a compounded hypoalergenic T4 and Paddock T3 - am not able to use Armour, Nature-Throid as they all contain porcine. I have low testosterone and DHEA. Would using Progesterone help with the adrenaline rushes I get. If so which is the best to try? Would prefer a topical product.
Thanks for any help
 
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alywest

alywest

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Greetings from Elize
I have Hashimoto use a compounded hypoalergenic T4 and Paddock T3 - am not able to use Armour, Nature-Throid as they all contain porcine. I have low testosterone and DHEA. Would using Progesterone help with the adrenaline rushes I get. If so which is the best to try? Would prefer a topical product.
Thanks for any help

I think progesterone would help.

You could look into the new product: CortiNon - Liquid Product For R&D
Has progesterone and dhea topical in a solvent.

Also look at 5a-dhp: 5α-Dihydroprogesterone (5α-DHP) - Pro-hormone And Neurosteroid For R&D
 

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