Licorice Root - A Key Supplement In Hypothyroidism?

[kineticz]

kin-
Were you using the
Deglycyrrhized Licorice Root Extract...?

http://umm.edu/health/medical/altmed/herb/licorice

Yes I believe so.

 

[kineticz]

"One of the many actions of the "SSRI" (such as fluoxetine, Prozac), which aren’t related to their effect on serotonin, is to increase the concentration of allopregnanolone in the brain, imitating the action of increased progesterone. Following this discovery, Lilly got Prozac approved as a treatment for premenstrual syndrome. Since the production of allopregnanolone and progesterone depends on the availability of pregnenolone and cholesterol, a low cholesterol level would be one of the factors making this an inappropriate way to treat PMS."

This is perhaps one route Peat acknowledges that serotonin and E2 are sometimes used to promote wellness, along the lines of my theory on E2.

 

[haidut]

"One of the many actions of the "SSRI" (such as fluoxetine, Prozac), which aren’t related to their effect on serotonin, is to increase the concentration of allopregnanolone in the brain, imitating the action of increased progesterone. Following this discovery, Lilly got Prozac approved as a treatment for premenstrual syndrome. Since the production of allopregnanolone and progesterone depends on the availability of pregnenolone and cholesterol, a low cholesterol level would be one of the factors making this an inappropriate way to treat PMS."

This is perhaps one route Peat acknowledges that serotonin and E2 are sometimes used to promote wellness, along the lines of my theory on E2.

I agree that some of the SSRI's increase allopregnanolone and pregnanolone, and this is probably their main beneficial mechanism. You can achieve the same effect by simply supplementing pregnenolone. Taking 500mg pregnenolone daily for 8 weeks increases allopregnanolone by a factor of 8 and progesterone by a factor of 4. There is study on the forum showing these results, and the study was for schizophrenia.
Another great way to achieve the same is to take caffeine. I posted a study showing that human doses of about 500mg caffeine daily will double allopregnanolone.
Anyways, do you mind clarifying how the above quote you posted involves E2? All I see is references to progesterone and allopregnanolone.

 

[cantstoppeating]

...

It is apparent to me that Peat's key arguments are correct - serotonin and prolactin are catabolic and anti-CO2, thyroid governs pregnenolone.

...

If you agree with Peat's ideas on serotonin and prolactin, then you must also agree with his ideas on estrogen.

You can't isolate and accept a particular chain of reasoning while dismissing its corollaries and ultimate conclusion.

If I were you I'd test what Peat advises to get a complete picture:

-Bicarbonate/C02
-Prolactin
-Thyroid panel
-Cholesterol panel
-Serum calcium
-Ferritin
-Parathyroid Hormone

 

[kineticz]

...

It is apparent to me that Peat's key arguments are correct - serotonin and prolactin are catabolic and anti-CO2, thyroid governs pregnenolone.

...

If you agree with Peat's ideas on serotonin and prolactin, then you must also agree with his ideas on estrogen.

You can't isolate and accept a particular chain of reasoning while dismissing its corollaries and ultimate conclusion.

If I were you I'd test what Peat advises to get a complete picture:

-Bicarbonate/C02
-Prolactin
-Thyroid panel
-Cholesterol panel
-Serum calcium
-Ferritin
-Parathyroid Hormone

Yes, you can. Theory is all well and good, but when you come at it from experience you can very reasonably deconstruct the compensatory mechanisms. Lesser of two evils.

I do agree with Peat's research and analysis on estrogen, but in some rare instances such as my own I believe E2 was increasing ACTH while hypothyroid and therefore increasing the adrenal intake of fatty acids for pregnenolone.

Lowering E2 makes all my stess reactions worse, and if I take DIM I get depersonalisation that is seen when the adrenals are not respiring.

 

[narouz]

It is a very interesting mystery/exploration, kineticz.
The scenario seems so particularlized to you though,
that it is difficult for me to relate my own struggles to yours.

I think the main impasse for me is the estrogen piece of the puzzle.
We're not used to measuring estrogen here
because of Peat's quirky notions about how one reliably does that.
I mean, generally, we're not accustomed to scheming to raise estrogen. :)

 

[haidut]

It is a very interesting mystery/exploration, kineticz.
The scenario seems so particularlized to you though,
that it is difficult for me to relate my own struggles to yours.

I think the main impasse for me is the estrogen piece of the puzzle.
We're not used to measuring estrogen here
because of Peat's quirky notions about how one reliably does that.
I mean, generally, we're not accustomed to scheming to raise estrogen. :)

I posted a study long time ago on how prolactin is very good measure of both serotonin stores and aromatase activity. The latter would be good representation of how estrogenic your current state it, even if it does not show directly how much estrogen is stored into the tissues.

 

[narouz]

It is a very interesting mystery/exploration, kineticz.
The scenario seems so particularlized to you though,
that it is difficult for me to relate my own struggles to yours.

I think the main impasse for me is the estrogen piece of the puzzle.
We're not used to measuring estrogen here
because of Peat's quirky notions about how one reliably does that.
I mean, generally, we're not accustomed to scheming to raise estrogen. :)

I posted a study long time ago on how prolactin is very good measure of both serotonin stores and aromatase activity. The latter would be good representation of how estrogenic your current state it, even if it does not show directly how much estrogen is stored into the tissues.

Ah...
just what I was wondering about, haidut.
Thanks.

 

[haidut]

It is a very interesting mystery/exploration, kineticz.
The scenario seems so particularlized to you though,
that it is difficult for me to relate my own struggles to yours.

I think the main impasse for me is the estrogen piece of the puzzle.
We're not used to measuring estrogen here
because of Peat's quirky notions about how one reliably does that.
I mean, generally, we're not accustomed to scheming to raise estrogen. :)

I posted a study long time ago on how prolactin is very good measure of both serotonin stores and aromatase activity. The latter would be good representation of how estrogenic your current state it, even if it does not show directly how much estrogen is stored into the tissues.

Ah...
just what I was wondering about, haidut.
Thanks.

Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3594

 

[narouz]

It is a very interesting mystery/exploration, kineticz.
The scenario seems so particularlized to you though,
that it is difficult for me to relate my own struggles to yours.

I think the main impasse for me is the estrogen piece of the puzzle.
We're not used to measuring estrogen here
because of Peat's quirky notions about how one reliably does that.
I mean, generally, we're not accustomed to scheming to raise estrogen. :)

I posted a study long time ago on how prolactin is very good measure of both serotonin stores and aromatase activity. The latter would be good representation of how estrogenic your current state it, even if it does not show directly how much estrogen is stored into the tissues.

Ah...
just what I was wondering about, haidut.
Thanks.

Here it is:
viewtopic.php?f=75&t=3594

Great.
Thanks!
I'm gonna check it out. :)

 

[cantstoppeating]

...

It is apparent to me that Peat's key arguments are correct - serotonin and prolactin are catabolic and anti-CO2, thyroid governs pregnenolone.

...

If you agree with Peat's ideas on serotonin and prolactin, then you must also agree with his ideas on estrogen.

You can't isolate and accept a particular chain of reasoning while dismissing its corollaries and ultimate conclusion.

If I were you I'd test what Peat advises to get a complete picture:

-Bicarbonate/C02
-Prolactin
-Thyroid panel
-Cholesterol panel
-Serum calcium
-Ferritin
-Parathyroid Hormone

Yes, you can. Theory is all well and good, but when you come at it from experience you can very reasonably deconstruct the compensatory mechanisms. Lesser of two evils.

I do agree with Peat's research and analysis on estrogen, but in some rare instances such as my own I believe E2 was increasing ACTH while hypothyroid and therefore increasing the adrenal intake of fatty acids for pregnenolone.

Lowering E2 makes all my stess reactions worse, and if I take DIM I get depersonalisation that is seen when the adrenals are not respiring.

By definition you can't and a well formed theory is backed with experience -- though I understand what you're trying to say.

So far, what you've been saying is:

I'm running on stress hormones.
If I lower my stress hormones, I feel worse.
Therefor stress hormones should not be kept low.

What you're missing is that when lowering stress hormones, you need to increase the anti-stress hormones. If you'd had a more comprehensive blood test and measured what Peat actually suggests instead of narrowing in on estrogen and ACTH, you wouldn't be in the hole you've dug for yourself drawing the wrong conclusions.

What's actually happening is this:

I'm running on stress hormones.
If I lower my stress hormones, I feel worse.
I increase anti-stress hormones, I feel better.
Therefor stress hormones should be kept low and anti-stress hormones should be kept higher.

If I were you, I'd focus on continuing to lower estrogen while taking T3/T4 to increase anti-stress hormones. I'm actually doing this myself and the results match Peat's stress and anti-stress model of the organism.

 

[tara]

So far, what you've been saying is:

I'm running on stress hormones.
If I lower my stress hormones, I feel worse.
Therefor stress hormones should not be kept low.

What you're missing is that when lowering stress hormones, you need to increase the anti-stress hormones. If you'd had a more comprehensive blood test and measured what Peat actually suggests instead of narrowing in on estrogen and ACTH, you wouldn't be in the hole you've dug for yourself drawing the wrong conclusions.

What's actually happening is this:

I'm running on stress hormones.
If I lower my stress hormones, I feel worse.
I increase anti-stress hormones, I feel better.
Therefor stress hormones should be kept low and anti-stress hormones should be kept higher.

This is how it looks to me, too.
I'd add that trying to manipulate hormones while while in energy deficit from neglecting basic nourishment is unlikely to give optimal health results. Trying to artificially raise thyroid hormone levels without providing adequate food to support it (overall calories as well as all the specific nutrients) is likely to be hard on the body.

 

[kineticz]

It is a very interesting mystery/exploration, kineticz.
The scenario seems so particularlized to you though,
that it is difficult for me to relate my own struggles to yours.

I think the main impasse for me is the estrogen piece of the puzzle.
We're not used to measuring estrogen here
because of Peat's quirky notions about how one reliably does that.
I mean, generally, we're not accustomed to scheming to raise estrogen. :)

It's definitely particularized due to my series of bad decisions to meddle with hormones but that makes it no less of a warning and I have learned the hard way.

I think I have narrowed it down to an adrenal enzyme.

Did you know that the enzyme responsible for aromatase is the same enzyme responsible for converting progesterone into cortisol? This is another mechanism for reducing ACTH as E2 and CORT negatively inhibit ACTH and pregnenolone.

The CYP-19 enzyme. I believe this is another theory on how blocking the CYP19 enzyme with aromatase inhibitors, then blocking the DHT 3HSBD enzyme responsible for converting preg to prog shut me down.

I went from relatively good health consuming lots of eggs, proteins, pregnenolone, to a nightmare in short order in the space of about two months from May to August last summer.

I recall now that I knew I wasn't making cortisol, so foolishly I tried to block DHT, and E2, thinking the only escape route would be cortisol. Instead I got eye floaters, fatty liver enzymes, depersonalisation, etc.

My theory is that with CYP-19 and 3HSBD out of action, fatty acids and triglycerides ramped up, combined with a sluggish liver, resulting in adrenal mitochondrial suffocation. It can't get worse than that really for a man or woman.

So just another thing for people to be cautious of when messing with estrogen. Estrogens effects are nothing compared to having it out of action and no progesterone conversion.

 

[kineticz]

I'm running on stress hormones.
If I lower my stress hormones, I feel worse.
Therefor stress hormones should not be kept low.

What you're missing is that when lowering stress hormones, you need to increase the anti-stress hormones. If you'd had a more comprehensive blood test and measured what Peat actually suggests instead of narrowing in on estrogen and ACTH, you wouldn't be in the hole you've dug for yourself drawing the wrong conclusions.

What's actually happening is this:

I'm running on stress hormones.
If I lower my stress hormones, I feel worse.
I increase anti-stress hormones, I feel better.
Therefor stress hormones should be kept low and anti-stress hormones should be kept higher.

If I were you, I'd focus on continuing to lower estrogen while taking T3/T4 to increase anti-stress hormones. I'm actually doing this myself and the results match Peat's stress and anti-stress model of the organism.

What you're missing is that my estrogen was not long ago at ZERO.

That is quite far off the mark IMO. I get all that, it's Peat's area, but that's not the point of my theories. I also don't say that stress hormones should not be kept low, just that compensatory mechanisms need to be better understood, and how to overcome genetic metabolism setpoints.

I taker T3 and I run out of cholesterol/preg. The focus goes back to the liver and adrenals.

Estrogen in some form affects the adrenals more than is made obvious on this forum. And the liver needs more exposure in how it's affected by ACTH.

ACTH is more important IMO than thyroid and the liver is more important than both.

You can't always increase anti-stress hormones simply by taking thyroid.

 

[tara]

What you're missing is that my estrogen was not long ago at ZERO.

That is quite far off the mark IMO. I get all that, it's Peat's area, but that's not the point of my theories. I also don't say that stress hormones should not be kept low, just that compensatory mechanisms need to be better understood, and how to overcome genetic metabolism setpoints.

I taker T3 and I run out of cholesterol/preg. The focus goes back to the liver and adrenals.

Estrogen in some form affects the adrenals more than is made obvious on this forum. And the liver needs more exposure in how it's affected by ACTH.

ACTH is more important IMO than thyroid and the liver is more important than both.

You can't always increase anti-stress hormones simply by taking thyroid.

I don't recall that 0 estrogen has has been established by tissue sample analysis - as Peat has pointed out, blood estrogen can be very low while tissue levels are problematically high.
But even if you are right about your estrogen being extremely low, eating food is still going to be a part of the solution.

I don't think you can know much about your normal genetic metabolism set points while you are undereating - the body will make whatever compensations it can figure out to handle an energy deficit, and they all have costs wrt to an optimally running metabolism.

If you are undereating and supplement T3, there is a predictable risk of converting your cholesterol to other hormones faster than you can sustain and running your cholesterol levels too low. Peat advises against supplementing T3 until you get your cholesterol levels up to at least 160, preferably over 200.

The talk of compensatory mechanisms may be very interesting - I have read all you have written, but not retained or fully understood all of it. However, it seems to be a bit of a distraction to me. How about at least for a while dropping the focus on manipulating your body to keep making compensations for inadequate energy, and get serious about supplying sufficient energy for a while instead. The body can often do wonderful things if it is given a chance. No guarantees, but it really seems to me like the obvious first step.

You can't expect your body to sustainable produce optimal amounts of all the important hormones if you don't supply adequate raw materials and energy. Furthermore, if you were to succeed in forcing your body to maintain a high metabolism without adequate input, your body has no options but to catabolise organs. Low metabolism and all the other things your body is doing that are causing you distress may well be it's so far successful attempts to protect you from starvation.

I think it is reckless to supplement T3 in this context.

 

[kineticz]

I'm doing all that, again missing the point. I am circulating my very valid theories from a major mistake I made back in summer 2014.

Cantstopeating said take T3 so thankyou for confirming it's poor advice 'if i were you'.

 

[tara]

I'm doing all that, again missing the point. I am circulating my very valid theories from a major mistake I made back in summer 2014.

Cantstopeating said take T3 so thankyou for confirming it's poor advice 'if i were you'.

Do you mean you've recently managed to get your food intake up to reasonable levels? Great. Maybe I missed something - the last I recall you were struggling with that. Maybe give it a little time and don't panic if it's not all solved in a week or two? Once you've been eating enough for a while, maybe T3 and/or other interventions will make sense, maybe not. I meant it was reckless while undereating.

If your point is to warn people about the risks of extreme unphysiologic meddling with hormones, then fair enough.
I wouldn't advise strong supplemental hormone interventions while in energy deficit either, in general (there may be exceptions).
For some people maybe the detail about what you think has happened for you will be interesting and helpful. To me, the key point still seems to be that if you don't eat enough, you will be in a chronic stress state, and it will be difficult to restore or sustain good health. Trying to fix the resulting problems by manipulating hormones and without addressing the root cause can cause more problems - which may vary from body to body, because exactly how each body deals with ongoing stress varies.

 

[kineticz]

Let me be clear - I am hear to make progress, not to understand Ray Peat. I have spent years already knowing the processes. It is all just theory.

 

[aquaman]

Nothing beats what I outlined in my earlier lengthy post. No supplement will compensate for a low active lifestyle, good sleep, diligent use of sugar, salt, and thyroid. Adrenal suppression, as I have been through, complete depersonalisation and zombification, is possible with excess pregnenolone, and this must be warned to new members should I leave soon.

...

A powerful ionizer, salt, lysine, vitamin E, licorice, sugar before bed and exercise, and increased cardio intensity at the gym have vastly improved my opportunities and outlook now, all thanks to Dr Ray Peat.

CARDIO? NO WAY BRO!

:)

Good to hear some rationality on this forum!

I read Diet Recovery 2 by Stoney recently. The chapter on exercise is fantastic. We know he is all for taking it easy and recovering, but he also says this which I loved:

Being physically fit and feeling strong are priceless attributes. Not only does most information out there validate that the net result of attaining and maintaining a good level of fitness and strength is fantastically healthy and beneficial to your overall quality of life as you age – metabolically and otherwise, but also there is something inherently exciting and inspiring about being in top form. These confident feelings are worth their weight in gold in terms of how they translate to the total life experience. We all want to be there. We are all inspired by feats of human strength and athleticism. I think it’s a beautiful thing to take action and perform at your best by getting fit and strong. At the very least I know it wounds you on a deep level every time you have difficulty climbing a flight of stairs or standing up when you’re not at your fittest.

And

So if you are going to do something, whatever it is,
you’ll probably get better results from doing it vigorously. How vigorously? Well, depends on
how healthy you are. The more solid your metabolism, the better your sleep and lower your
stress, and the younger you are – generally the more intensely you can exercise without any ill
effects. If you are in shambles and haven’t exercised in ages, just start out nice and easy and
slow and build intensity over time.

and

I hope you are getting the basic concept here. I want you to heal your metabolism AND get in
great physical shape. I don’t think the two goals are mutually exclusive.

The benefits
of exercise do not come from burning calories. The benefits of exercise come from the hormonal
adaptations the body makes to better handle the demands being placed upon it. And these
adaptations come from doing very hard work – not very long work.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Matt Stoney?