Let's Talk Libido: What's Your Experience?

[griesburner]

So if I were you you should try, Nettle root and or Licorice root (3 grams)

Thats interesting and supports my experience that everytime i drink some estrogenic tea like peppermint fennel or licorice my libido gets better and i feel better. Otherwise things like tribulus, ginger etc that are supposed to raise test and libido actually lower it for me What is the actual mechanism behind it?

 

[Aleeri]

Too much free T and relatively low SHBG is the problem.
This means there is less usable testosterone on less SHBG available for tissue SHBG-receptors.

Thanks man but I wish this was really that simple, it is not.

Before going on Peat diet I had high SHBG and lower free T, I felt even worse from that.

I had SHBG all the way from 50 up to 78 nmol/L even at its highest. I had free T in ranges 0.090 up to current 0.204 ng/mL.

0.090 Free T felt like death was around the corner. 0.120 and I felt ok, now with 0.204 on Peat I feel best so far (very alpha) and I have built a substantial amount of muscle mass as well for the first time in many years.

I cannot agree with this theory that free T doesn't matter because it is obvious to me in everything except sexual function. SHBG is probably important though but I doubt you want it either too low or too high.

 

[Sobieski]

What daily dosage do you use?

I don't use it every day, only when needed to combat stress as if I take it all the time I stop caring about everything. If your prog is low though it might be worth using it to bring it up and observe the effects it has.

 

[Aleeri]

I don't use it every day, only when needed to combat stress as if I take it all the time I stop caring about everything. If your prog is low though it might be worth using it to bring it up and observe the effects it has.

Yeah, I am considering it, not sure about dosage though. I emailed Peat to see what he says, he looked at my case previously.

 

[Sobieski]

Yeah, I am considering it, not sure about dosage though. I emailed Peat to see what he says, he looked at my case previously.

3-6mg is a good start. Let me know what he says!

 

[Aleeri]

Got reply from Ray:

A little topical progesterone might help. Do you take any vitamin D? Are you drinking milk? Calcium and vitamin D help to increase the metabolic rate. Do you have some sea food regularly? I haven’t been paying attention to it in recent years, but I used to see people who felt best when their total T3 was around 130, toward the upper end of the normal range. Those things are likely to help you convert more cholesterol to pregnenolone and progesterone.

Since I am already consuming 1-2 litres of milk a day and also taking vitamin D along with fish weekly, I will be starting low dose Cynomel in about a week to try to get T3 up to the upper end as he recommends.

I will also start 6,6mg Progestene daily today, 2 drops morning and evening. Do you guys think this might be too much?

I doubt I will get much effect on my labs from just 1 drop x2 a day, which is 3,3mg. I've taken 2-3 drops before on occasion without feeling much so I think I need to stay consistent on dosage or dose it higher.

He seems to imply that I have some issue with converting cholesterol to preg/prog which I can see what he mean since I still have plenty of cholesterol.

 

[General Orange]

Thanks man but I wish this was really that simple, it is not.

Before going on Peat diet I had high SHBG and lower free T, I felt even worse from that.

I had SHBG all the way from 50 up to 78 nmol/L even at its highest. I had free T in ranges 0.090 up to current 0.204 ng/mL.

0.090 Free T felt like death was around the corner. 0.120 and I felt ok, now with 0.204 on Peat I feel best so far (very alpha) and I have built a substantial amount of muscle mass as well for the first time in many years.

I cannot agree with this theory that free T doesn't matter because it is obvious to me in everything except sexual function. SHBG is probably important though but I doubt you want it either too low or too high.

Typical case of 'myth of free testosterone' :)
if it was so important, why is your mojo then not alright?
Peat says it himself, tissue bound androgens and estrogens on 'receptors' cannot be measured.
So I say, speculation being made based on the notion of floating around T, DHT not knowing if being excreted or bound is giving skewed interpretations of the workings in the system.

Therefore, I suggest. Do a little experiment.
Lets say your assumption of 'clearly estrogens do not matter' is right and free T does matter.
Try to increase your estrogen, so don't use anti-estrogen supps...
-drink Licorice root tea 4-7 grams per day, to lower T and also displace Estradiol from SHBG,
see what happens to your libido...

 

[General Orange]

Thats interesting and supports my experience that everytime i drink some estrogenic tea like peppermint fennel or licorice my libido gets better and i feel better. Otherwise things like tribulus, ginger etc that are supposed to raise test and libido actually lower it for me What is the actual mechanism behind it?

The mechanism is somewhat refreshing: interconversion of DHT<->Estradiol, by displacement of either of them from their transporters/'receptors', triggers a chain reaction of reconfiguration to modulate cell respiration. At least that's in theory.
But I find a nice study here: ( but i dont understand anything of it :P)
edit: removed link. not good study after all.

 

[General Orange]

nah, not really.
But the idea is that, in case of Licorice Root:
LR it puts its phytoestrogen with higher affinity of binding on SHBG, and so removes estradiol from it, estradiol can then be eliminated or converted to testosterone, into DHT into Androstenediol.
less estradiol, more testosterone or DHT.

For nettle root, it is the different:
NR puts it phytoestrogen on SHBG displacing DHT, DHT can then be eliminated or converted into Androstenediol.
less DHT, more Androstenediol and more chance of estradiol to bind to SHBG

 

[Aleeri]

nah, not really.
But the idea is that, in case of Licorice Root:
LR it puts its phytoestrogen with higher affinity of binding on SHBG, and so removes estradiol from it, estradiol can then be eliminated or converted to testosterone, into DHT into Androstenediol.
less estradiol, more testosterone or DHT.

For nettle root, it is the different:
NR puts it phytoestrogen on SHBG displacing DHT, DHT can then be eliminated or converted into Androstenediol.
less DHT, more Androstenediol and more chance of estradiol to bind to SHBG

First off, I have used nettle root and run labs, it does nothing to my T levels or SHBG, zero, nada. I have heard of few else that actual have real results like suggested with it. It seems to mostly just be good for prostate issues, I think from primarily anti-inflammatory effects.

in a human study where 558 subjects got 120mg of nettle root extract 3-times per day, the researchers saw no change in testosterone
6.
Lopatkin N, Sivkov A, Medvedev A, et al. [Combined extract of Sabal palm and nettle in the treatment of patients with lower urinary tract symptoms in double blind, placebo-controlled trial]. Urologiia. 2006;(2):12, 14-19. [PubMed]

In fact, the only research in living organism to ever show increases in testosterone levels, was conducted on rats that were already being supplemented with testosterone injections
10.
Willy J. Peumans 1st, Marc De Ley32.27 · University of Leuven 2nd, Willem Broekaert40.91 · University of Leuven 3rd. An unusual lectin from stinging nettle (Urtica dioica) rhizomes. ResearchGate. https://www.researchgate.net/public...n_from_stinging_nettle_Urtica_dioica_rhizomes. Published November 1, 1984. Accessed February 17, 2017.

Second estradiol is made from testosterone. Estradiol cannot be converted back to testosterone.

 

[Aleeri]

Typical case of 'myth of free testosterone' :)
if it was so important, why is your mojo then not alright?
Peat says it himself, tissue bound androgens and estrogens on 'receptors' cannot be measured.
So I say, speculation being made based on the notion of floating around T, DHT not knowing if being excreted or bound is giving skewed interpretations of the workings in the system.

Therefore, I suggest. Do a little experiment.
Lets say your assumption of 'clearly estrogens do not matter' is right and free T does matter.
Try to increase your estrogen, so don't use anti-estrogen supps...
-drink Licorice root tea 4-7 grams per day, to lower T and also displace Estradiol from SHBG,
see what happens to your libido...

Well, man, I have just spoken to Peat personally on email and he is recommending me to get T3 up and try some Prog, he saw nothing wrong with my androgens.

There is no way I would do a so-called experiment to bring me back into a worse state I have already experienced with lower T and higher SHBG and estrogen, I know exactly how it felt and it was ***t, I was in this state for years.

Licorice is also a corticosteroids mimetic and can increase cortisol levels, not something I want to play around with.

I could potentially try it as a last resort for increasing progesterone but why would I do that when I can just use a progesterone topical and don't kill my androgens in the process, it's not like they are crazy above range like on TRT or something.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199910073411515
"Thus, men with decreased libido or other sexual dysfunction, as well as those with hypertension, should be questioned about licorice ingestion."

 

[Blossom]

Well, man, I have just spoken to Peat personally on email and he is recommending me to get T3 up and try some Prog, he saw nothing wrong with my androgens.

There is no way I would do a so-called experiment to bring me back into a worse state I have already experienced with lower T and higher SHBG and estrogen, I know exactly how it felt and it was ***t, I was in this state for years.

Licorice is also a corticosteroids mimetic and can increase cortisol levels, not something I want to play around with.

I could potentially try it as a last resort for increasing progesterone but why would I do that when I can just use a progesterone topical and don't kill my androgens in the process, it's not like they are crazy above range like on TRT or something.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199910073411515
"Thus, men with decreased libido or other sexual dysfunction, as well as those with hypertension, should be questioned about licorice ingestion."

And the t3 and progesterone will probably lower your prolactin a bit. Although yours is only 9.6 Peat has mentioned 4-7 is optimal for males. My experience with prolactin is that it's a huge libido killer.

 

[Aleeri]

And the t3 and progesterone will probably lower your prolactin a bit. Although yours is only 9.6 Peat has mentioned 4-7 is optimal for males. My experience with prolactin is that it's a huge libido killer.

Yeah I hope so, I have hair loss as well so it likely plays a part.

I have been doing double dose of my Vitamin E, 800 IU daily for 1-2 weeks now and feel no different.

I think my core focus should be to get body temps up, seems like that is important and that mine is low is suggesting that something is not right even though most of my hormones look pretty great.

I saw some research suggesting Progesterone increase temperature as well along with T3 so should be a good combo.

 

[Blossom]

Yeah I hope so, I have hair loss as well so it likely plays a part.

I have been doing double dose of my Vitamin E, 800 IU daily for 1-2 weeks now and feel no different.

I think my core focus should be to get body temps up, seems like that is important and that mine is low is suggesting that something is not right even though most of my hormones look pretty great.

I saw some research suggesting Progesterone increase temperature as well along with T3 so should be a good combo.

I think they will both help. Please give an update on how things go!

 

[General Orange]

First off, I have used nettle root and run labs, it does nothing to my T levels or SHBG, zero, nada. I have heard of few else that actual have real results like suggested with it. It seems to mostly just be good for prostate issues, I think from primarily anti-inflammatory effects.



Second estradiol is made from testosterone. Estradiol cannot be converted back to testosterone.

Not correct. yes estrogen can be converted to testotereon in an aromatase-indepentantly intracelluar way.

https://www.precisionnutrition.com/all-about-estrogens

 

[General Orange]

Well, man, I have just spoken to Peat personally on email and he is recommending me to get T3 up and try some Prog, he saw nothing wrong with my androgens.

There is no way I would do a so-called experiment to bring me back into a worse state I have already experienced with lower T and higher SHBG and estrogen, I know exactly how it felt and it was ***t, I was in this state for years.

Licorice is also a corticosteroids mimetic and can increase cortisol levels, not something I want to play around with.

I could potentially try it as a last resort for increasing progesterone but why would I do that when I can just use a progesterone topical and don't kill my androgens in the process, it's not like they are crazy above range like on TRT or something.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199910073411515
"Thus, men with decreased libido or other sexual dysfunction, as well as those with hypertension, should be questioned about licorice ingestion."

-your fear of going back into the same worse state is still based on the wrong conception of free testostrone myth.
-Licorice can extends the available cortisol like a cotrisone-cortisol balancer.
At least one study using 3.5g Licorice (half the oral dose of the aforementioned studies) suggested that the observed effects in this study were secondary to 11βHSD1 activation with no apparent increases in cortisol.[131]
Licorice - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects

 

[General Orange]

Yeah I hope so, I have hair loss as well so it likely plays a part.

I have been doing double dose of my Vitamin E, 800 IU daily for 1-2 weeks now and feel no different.

I think my core focus should be to get body temps up, seems like that is important and that mine is low is suggesting that something is not right even though most of my hormones look pretty great.

I saw some research suggesting Progesterone increase temperature as well along with T3 so should be a good combo.

-hair loss can also be treated with licorice root, this has been done for ages in Ayurvedic practices.

 

[General Orange]

Well, man, I have just spoken to Peat personally on email and he is recommending me to get T3 up and try some Prog, he saw nothing wrong with my androgens.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199910073411515
"Thus, men with decreased libido or other sexual dysfunction, as well as those with hypertension, should be questioned about licorice ingestion."

- nothing wrong with the reading okay, great, but still Peat cannot see your tissue-bound androgens can he?
- too high dose can indeed lower T too much, but there is conflicting studies about that so as a precaution use only use 3 grams of licorice root to prevent that.

 

[Aleeri]

Not correct. yes estrogen can be converted to testotereon in an aromatase-indepentantly intracelluar way.

https://www.precisionnutrition.com/all-about-estrogens

Ah I stand corrected, very interesting. But how does this work in practical terms?

I mean as far as I know using any type of estrogen or phytoestrogen will never boost testosterone levels, it will always decrease them, so when does that actually happen?

 

[Aleeri]

-your fear of going back into the same worse state is still based on the wrong conception of free testostrone myth.
-Licorice can extends the available cortisol like a cotrisone-cortisol balancer.
At least one study using 3.5g Licorice (half the oral dose of the aforementioned studies) suggested that the observed effects in this study were secondary to 11βHSD1 activation with no apparent increases in cortisol.[131]
Licorice - Scientific Review on Usage, Dosage, Side Effects

No but Peat have a lot of clinical experience and you are the first ever in about 10 years time that I have heard suggest something like this, reduce androgens in a case of low libido, hope you understand why I'm hesitant :P I am aware of Peat's thoughts on Free T and sure it probably holds some merit.

For sake of argument though, I did google a bit extra surrounding free T and it sure has positive implications, a lot of them.

A significant decrease in testosterone and free testosterone levels with increasing age was determined (p=0.021). It was also found that erectile dysfunction, as determined by IIEF (r=0.66, p<0.001), and symptoms of prostatism determined by IPSS (r=-0.23, p=0.016), were significantly associated with low free testosterone levels. Laboratory parameters, obesity, osteoporosis, cognitive function, daily life activities, and cardiovascular diseases were not significantly different between groups with low and normal free testosterone levels.
Free testosterone levels and implications on clinical outcomes in elderly men. - PubMed - NCBI

"Bioavailable and free testosterone are known to correlate better than total testosterone with clinical sequelae of androgenization such as bone mineral density and muscle strength. Reductions in free testosterone also correlate with age related declines in fat free mass (muscle mass) and muscle strength. A study of patients with type 2 diabetes using measurement of serum free testosterone by the gold standard method of equilibrium dialysis, found a 33% prevalence of biochemical hypogonadism. A 4-year follow up study of the latter population showed that free testosterone was also inversely correlated with the rate of increase of IMT. intima-media thickness (IMT) is an early sign of atherosclerosis and has also been shown to predict cardiovascular mortality. These findings contrast with a similar study conducted in healthy men aged 60–75, showing that free testosterone levels achieved with treatment during the study correlate with overall sexual function, including morning erections, spontaneous erections and libido. Longitudinal studies have found that free testosterone levels correlate positively with future cognitive abilities and reduced rate of cognitive decline."
There is more in this article but above is an assortment of lines I copied and pasted: Testosterone for the aging male; current evidence and recommended practice

"Lower levels of baseline FT are associated with a greater risk of incident or worsening mobility limitation in community-dwelling older men."
Free Testosterone Levels Are Associated with Mobility Limitation and Physical Performance in Community-Dwelling Men: The Framingham Offspring Study

"We analyzed 4,187 or 2,010 cumulative data points using generalized estimating equations. Low TT was not associated with sarcopenia. Low cFT (odds ratio = 2.14, 95% confidence interval: 1.06–4.33) and FT (odds ratio = 1.83, 95% confidence interval: 1.04–3.22) were associated with sarcopenia. Low FT may be a predictor of risk for muscle loss in Japanese men."
Relationship between Low Free Testosterone Levels and Loss of Muscle Mass

"A free testosterone concentration in the lowest quintile is associated with a higher prevalence of depression, and this association cannot be adequately explained by physical comorbidity."
Low Free Testosterone Concentration as a Potentially Treatable Cause of Depressive Symptoms in Older Men


I still think my problems lies in Progesterone levels and body temp, as I know it's involved in libido function in men as well.