Let's talk about gluten

[CDT]

Let's begin with stating that I am not gluten intolerant. At least, not by any self-observed standard. I can consume bread with no observable issues. I do, however, have issues when I consume seitan, which is pure gluten.

I watched a video from Thomas O'Bryan stating that ALL humans ALWAYS suffer intestinal permeability from ANY gluten exposure (regardless if you have Celiac's or not). Some people, such as myself, do not manifest gastrological physical symptoms from lower FODMAP foods like bread and cereal, but may suffer things such as anxiety, sleeplessness, skin rash, etc. However, when I am exposed to pure gluten, things start to go south (loose stools, violently offensive flatulence, etc, slight stomach pressure, slight nausea, etc.). Here is the video below:



Can anyone here explain what the approach is to this from the Ray Peat perspective? I'd love to start this discussion, not necessarily to integrate wheat, but to understand the pathway of hidden inflammatory foods and ways to address them in modern society.

Also, please respond to this question, if you can spare some time for it: Does eating gluten and "damaging" the gut lining have any affect towards the "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" premise? Does it ultimately enhance the recovery of gut healing and thus prevent you from suffering from permeability cases in future incidents?

 

[Julles]

This is very interesting.

I also can eat homemade bread (flour, water, yeast, salt) without any observable issues but if I abuse on comercial loaf bread I notice some anxiety and declining humor and energy, they add some vegetable oils to these.

Also would like to hear others experiences with this food.

 

[equipoise]

I can eat any pasta since pasta here is Italian and they don't add any fortifiers to it, it's just durum wheat.

I've just had some spaghetti bolognese, homemade on olive oil. I can easily digest this, even tho I've ate a huge portion of it.
I also would never ditch gluten or starch. Doesn't mean that eating fruit only is not better for me, it probably is. I just love life and food and know what makes me feel good versus what makes me feel bad. I definitely will be avoiding any PUFA fried junk, or things like that.

It's all very individual right, so best to be experimenting all the time and learning through trial and error.

 

[LadyRae]

Let's begin with stating that I am not gluten intolerant. At least, not by any self-observed standard. I can consume bread with no observable issues. I do, however, have issues when I consume seitan, which is pure gluten.

I watched a video from Thomas O'Bryan stating that ALL humans ALWAYS suffer intestinal permeability from ANY gluten exposure (regardless if you have Celiac's or not). Some people, such as myself, do not manifest gastrological physical symptoms from lower FODMAP foods like bread and cereal, but may suffer things such as anxiety, sleeplessness, skin rash, etc. However, when I am exposed to pure gluten, things start to go south (loose stools, violently offensive flatulence, etc, slight stomach pressure, slight nausea, etc.). Here is the video below:



Can anyone here explain what the approach is to this from the Ray Peat perspective? I'd love to start this discussion, not necessarily to integrate wheat, but to understand the pathway of hidden inflammatory foods and ways to address them in modern society.

Also, please respond to this question, if you can spare some time for it: Does eating gluten and "damaging" the gut lining have any affect towards the "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" premise? Does it ultimately enhance the recovery of gut healing and thus prevent you from suffering from permeability cases in future incidents?

I have known for some time that I am very sensitive to gluten. But yesterday I ate a couple Rice Krispie treats my sister-in-law made for my kids. Apparently they have malt flavor in them. So I noticed that before bed I was starting to retain water and in the night I had a lot of stomach discomfort and then this morning my face is super puffy and I have dark raccoon puffy circles around my eyes. These are my classic symptoms every time I get into gluten.

I do not think that it makes me stronger in the end to try to have more and more gluten. I do not tolerate it more if I eat it more. What I should have done is take an activated charcoal capsule right before and after the Rice Krispie Treat.

I have also read in various places that the gluten protein causes trouble for everybody's gut whether they have symptoms or not.

 

[metabolizm]

Eating wheat -- bread, pasta, whatever -- invariably slows my transit time. In other words, it's constipating. I think this effect is pretty common, but lots of people don't mind BMs once every day or two days.

 

[equipoise]

Eating wheat -- bread, pasta, whatever -- invariably slows my transit time. In other words, it's constipating. I think this effect is pretty common, but lots of people don't mind BMs once every day or two days.

Mushrooms / Carrot salad are like a cure for slower transit time by gluten, it's such an effective and simple fix

 

[Korven]

I can eat any pasta since pasta here is Italian and they don't add any fortifiers to it, it's just durum wheat.

I've just had some spaghetti bolognese, homemade on olive oil. I can easily digest this, even tho I've ate a huge portion of it.
I also would never ditch gluten or starch. Doesn't mean that eating fruit only is not better for me, it probably is. I just love life and food and know what makes me feel good versus what makes me feel bad. I definitely will be avoiding any PUFA fried junk, or things like that.

It's all very individual right, so best to be experimenting all the time and learning through trial and error.

I've been less strict with my diet lately, just eating whatever I feel like eating. Like a "normal" person. Had a massive bowl of home made bolognese the other day (probably 1000-1500 calories) after not having gluten for years, and it digested perfectly. And it was delicious!

I was getting tired/burnt out from eating a very restrictive diet and not really seeing any significant improvements (mainly with CFS). Figured I might as well eat what I want - with some additional thyroid support from NDT - and hope my body fixes itself. To my surprise I don't really feel any better or worse after relaxing my food choices. Skin is actually looking much nicer and hydrated, probably due to increased carb intake. Bread somehow really alleviates my dry eyes. Most calories come from milk, butter, meat, bread and potatoes. Eating and sharing meals with other people for some reason feels really, really good.

There are certainly issues with gluten for sensitive individuals and some just have to cut it out to feel good. Though if you don't celiac disease maybe cutting it out is a mistake.

 

[equipoise]

I've been less strict with my diet lately, just eating whatever I feel like eating. Like a "normal" person. Had a massive bowl of home made bolognese the other day (probably 1000-1500 calories) after not having gluten for years, and it digested perfectly. And it was delicious!

I was getting tired/burnt out from eating a very restrictive diet and not really seeing any significant improvements (mainly with CFS). Figured I might as well eat what I want - with some additional thyroid support from NDT - and hope my body fixes itself. To my surprise I don't really feel any better or worse after relaxing my food choices. Skin is actually looking much nicer and hydrated, probably due to increased carb intake. Bread somehow really alleviates my dry eyes. Most calories come from milk, butter, meat, bread and potatoes. Eating and sharing meals with other people for some reason feels really, really good.

However there are certainly issues with gluten for sensitive individuals and some just have to cut it out to feel good. Though if you don't celiac disease maybe cutting it out is a mistake.

What you said about sharing meals with others is very akin to my perception of food aswell. Plus there's big correlation between hardcore orthorexia and neurosis.

That's the thing, it's a blatant lie that everyone is intolerant to gluten, that's just plain wrong. Tons upon tons of people digest it perfectly. Something like 80% of my colleagues and acquintances have no problem with digesting gluten, experience minimal to no gas/bloat.

 

[Dave Clark]

I think it may be quite obvious that why people of today have problems digesting gluten, as well as other digestive problems, is the compromised guts that people have due to heavy metal toxicity, antibiotics, glyphosate, and all the other poisons that were not in the diet years ago. Our microbiome has been destroyed, and we are trying to get it back, to no avail. Peat's not big on probiotics, but he has said good things about spore based organisms like bacillus subtilis and other bacillus species. If you listen to the microbiologist Kiran Krishnan talk about them, they are the key to healing the gut and getting the microbiome back in order. There is too much for discussion, but many people who started using these spore based organisms have had remarkable results with their gut and food sensitivities. Do a search on Krishnan, Megasporebiotics, and related topics to see if it may be something that could benefit you. Apparently, lacto based probiotics really do not make it to the colon, and the positive results people get from them are due to the metabolites, not the bacteria themselves, which usually get killed by stomach acid and bile salts. Not the case with the spore bacteria, they can survive the journey. There are also studies done on these spore bacteria, some by Microbiome Labs, and others as well, so there is some documentation of success with spores.
This is weird and a bit off topic, but when I had to give my one duck antibiotics, it messed her up in a bunch of ways. I started her on a bacillus subtilis supplement and her recovery was remarkable. Now, I give it to all my birds. And, I myself am using the spore based bacteria, instead of lacto based.

 

[metabolizm]

I've been less strict with my diet lately, just eating whatever I feel like eating. Like a "normal" person. Had a massive bowl of home made bolognese the other day (probably 1000-1500 calories) after not having gluten for years, and it digested perfectly. And it was delicious!

I was getting tired/burnt out from eating a very restrictive diet and not really seeing any significant improvements (mainly with CFS). Figured I might as well eat what I want - with some additional thyroid support from NDT - and hope my body fixes itself. To my surprise I don't really feel any better or worse after relaxing my food choices. Skin is actually looking much nicer and hydrated, probably due to increased carb intake. Bread somehow really alleviates my dry eyes. Most calories come from milk, butter, meat, bread and potatoes. Eating and sharing meals with other people for some reason feels really, really good.

There are certainly issues with gluten for sensitive individuals and some just have to cut it out to feel good. Though if you don't celiac disease maybe cutting it out is a mistake.

I've tried this a few times, and I normally feel fine for a few days before things start to go downhill fast. I hope this doesn't happen to you!

 

[ursidae]

I’d be more worried about the exorphins

 

[Korven]

I've tried this a few times, and I normally feel fine for a few days before things start to go downhill fast. I hope this doesn't happen to you!

Yeah, you were right lol. Things started going downhill and now I'll have to go on a restrictive diet for weeks to get back to baseline health. It's like I forget super, super fast how bad I usually feel, and then I relax my diet and symptoms come crashing back... Why do I never learn?

I would probably make a lot of progress if I just stuck with what works (Strict Peat Diet) and don't try to mess with things too much. My health has been crap my entire life so I don't know why I keep thinking going back to eating "normally" would improve anything.

 

[Blossom]

Yeah, you were right lol. Things started going downhill and now I'll have to go on a restrictive diet for weeks to get back to baseline health. It's like I forget super, super fast how bad I usually feel, and then I relax my diet and symptoms come crashing back... Why do I never learn?

I would probably make a lot of progress if I just stuck with what works (Strict Peat Diet) and don't try to mess with things too much. My health has been crap my entire life so I don't know why I keep thinking going back to eating "normally" would improve anything.

This is so true for me too.

 

[metabolizm]

Yeah, you were right lol. Things started going downhill and now I'll have to go on a restrictive diet for weeks to get back to baseline health. It's like I forget super, super fast how bad I usually feel, and then I relax my diet and symptoms come crashing back... Why do I never learn?

I would probably make a lot of progress if I just stuck with what works (Strict Peat Diet) and don't try to mess with things too much. My health has been crap my entire life so I don't know why I keep thinking going back to eating "normally" would improve anything.

Wheat is the hardest food to give up. I get a genuine high when I eat a slice of toast with butter, and I start to think, “What could possibly be wrong with this if it tastes so good?” But all it takes now is one helping of bread and it’ll slow my transit time by six or seven hours. If I keep eating it I’ll end up costipated, bloated, and tired. And then it just keeps getting worse. I think it’s actually terrible stuff for most people, and it’s a shame it’s such a delight to eat.

 

[Korven]

This is so true for me too.

I'm always surprised by how quickly my health deteriorates when I start eating foods that my body doesn't like... From (almost) fully-functioning to bedridden.

In my experience Ray is 100% correct about:

"Animal proteins, and fruits, because they contain the lowest levels of toxins, should form the basis of the diet."

Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?

Ray Peat

raypeat.com

Wheat is the hardest food to give up. I get a genuine high when I eat a slice of toast with butter, and I start to think, “What could possibly be wrong with this if it tastes so good?” But all it takes now is one helping of bread and it’ll slow my transit time by six or seven hours. If I keep eating it I’ll end up costipated, bloated, and tired. And then it just keeps getting worse. I think it’s actually terrible stuff for most people, and it’s a shame it’s such a delight to eat.

Amen. It's almost like there's some evil spirit in gluten that enters your body and makes you want to eat more gluten, more bread, more pasta and other junk food. Recently a series of very questionable dietary choices led to extreme gas/bloating, to the point where I had bad chest pain and lay awake for several nights. I still feel really awful. Wheat + milk = constipation nightmare.

 

[ursidae]

It’s not something mysterious causing the cravings, it’s the opioids, that’s why the constipation is happening. Personally no amount of insoluble fibre or magnesium can resolve my dairy induced constipation, maybe naltrexone will work, but all my autoimmune type problems came back from dairy so I’m not even gonna bother experimenting any longer

 

[metabolizm]

It’s not something mysterious causing the cravings, it’s the opioids, that’s why the constipation is happening. Personally no amount of insoluble fibre or magnesium can resolve my dairy induced constipation, maybe naltrexone will work, but all my autoimmune type problems came back from dairy so I’m not even gonna bother experimenting any longer

I don’t know about you, but I find it much easier to avoid dairy than to avoid wheat. I mean, I definitely couldn’t drink milk all day like Ray suggests, but I could certainly eat bread and cake all day, for the sheer pleasure of it. I tried drinking more milk than I was craving and it didn’t end well. I usually just follow my cravings, and some days I’ll just have some milk in my morning coffee and that’s it. Some days I’ll have a bit more - maybe a latte, and a small glass of milk around dinner time - but never any more than 1L a day, not even half that.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I have heard it hypothesized that increased gluten insensitivity in the population is possibly a result of increased GMO wheat production, and possibly from the increased presence of glyphosate in wheat due to the increased use of that herbicide as a desiccant just prior to harvest. Has anyone tested to see if organic wheat causes the same symptoms as non-organic?

 

[gaze]

saw this quote by ray about fiber

RP:
"Washed wheat bran is usually safe and effective."

doesn't wheat bran still have gluten? ray seems more opposed to the starch in bread then he does the gluten, although he isn't too fond of gluten either