Let's Discuss Sudden, Morphological Changes

lvysaur

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I apologize in advance if I've talked about any of the following too often prior to this thread, but they are far too remarkable to keep quiet about. Herein I list a bunch of structural, anatomical attributes that have measurably changed for me since doing various Peat things.

Gonial angle - The angle that your jaw makes, when viewed from the side. This angle reaches 90° for me when I feel good, which is pretty directly correlated with how much sugar, fruit, and milk I'm consuming, and the amount of stress that I perceive that I'm under. In addition to the angle, the underside of my mandible undergoes considerable decalcification when I feel really good, usually with feelings of empathy and sympathy for others. This picture adequately demonstrates it. Note how there is a region of concavity in between his jaw angle and his chin.

Occipital bun - The bump at the back of your skull. Some people (especially males) have a very prominent one, which is very obvious upon tactile examination. When I feel good, this flattens out a lot, and it has flattened out many times before taking vitamin K2, when I ate oysters and liver together (I suspect the combination of zinc and B6, as it is known to powerfully affect DHT, and potentially estrogen). Before Peat, mine was probably always "hook" shaped, like in the linked picture.

Canthal tilt - The angle that your eye fissure makes. Angles that are positive are associated with youth, negative ones with age. My canthal tilt has increased several times before, but it is less easy to observe than the other two (you need to be looking in the mirror somewhat carefully), and seems harder to accomplish. It only happened, afaik, in conjuction with feelings of high confidence and superiority, and usually followed some type of major progress, either with girls, work, or project deadlines (girls also seem to dig me a lot more in this state). This picture accurately represents what my eyes and facial hair look like when I'm in this state (I have different pigmentation, more head hair, and a thinner nose).

Mentally, I feel the opposite of empathetic--I felt completely secure, but with no regard for others, and no regard for what others do or say to me. I remember @CoolTweetPete mentioning that he associates a high canthal tilt with a "savage energy", and that's an appropriate moniker for my mental state during those situations.

When I develop a positive tilt, the "concavity" that I mentioned above with the gonial angle always becomes less pronounced. The jawline doesn't "curve up" before reaching the chin.

I experience the softest, slowest growing facial hair (more on that later) in this state.

I've also noticed it increase slightly in the late morning, after having coffee with cream and sugar, a large bowel movement, and being in a fasted state.

Skull breadth - When I first started taking vitamin K2, it seemed like the circumference of my skull (breadth or widthwise), was getting larger. This was before I started taking aspirin.

Crunchiness -
When I take aspirin, and sometimes when I take K2, I experience a "crunchiness" in the joints of my spine and lower back. This happens very consistently with aspirin. Two threads, here and here, mention similar effects. It's likely related to my growing ~1.5 inches at the age of 24. @Peata @CoolTweetPete @Lecarpetron

Lips -
When I take the LifeExtension K complex supplement, my lips get bigger and much pinker temporarily. The supplement contains K1 and both forms of K2, MK-4 and MK-7.

Pigment -
My hair and skin both look lighter and redder in tone. I think my eyes may have lightened a bit, but they're naturally dark, so it's hard to tell.

Facial hair -
My facial hair is soft and slow growing when in a good mood. It's usually coarse upon waking, and becomes noticeably much softer after coffee and a bowel movement. Taking extra vitamin K2 makes it softer, and it is softest when I have a high canthal tilt.

Scalp hair -
Baldness reversed. Some recovery on the temples, complete recovery on main scalp, and the texture of hair became much finer, softer, shinier, and less wiry. I suspect that the hair follicle density on my beard also increased. Less oiliness, I can shower without shampoo now.

Sebum - Less oily skin and hair, as mentioned above. Oily skin is usually accompanied by hair loss in the shower, and coarser beard hair.

Nearly all of these traits can change within a matter of seconds, minutes, or hours. For example, if I have to deal with a sudden deadline, or I perceive that a certain task is more difficult than I thought it was, I get very quick calcification. If I have a bowel movement, my facial hair gets softer immediately after.

A lot of these traits only became observable to me after I started taking vitamin K2. Jaw width and reversal of hair loss, in particular, changed drastically after just a couple of days of K2. I had been following certain Peat things, like avoiding PUFAs, eating some liver/oysters, occasional carrot, coconut oil, for about two years before this. I didn't really make an effort with avoidance of fermentable fibers, excess starch, plenty of sugar, until recently, and it coincided with these changes.
 
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Regina

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I apologize in advance if I've talked about any of the following too often prior to this thread, but they are far too remarkable to keep quiet about. Herein I list a bunch of structural, anatomical attributes that have measurably changed for me since doing various Peat things.

Gonial angle - The angle that your jaw makes, when viewed from the side. This angle reaches 90° for me when I feel good, which is pretty directly correlated with how much sugar, fruit, and milk I'm consuming, and the amount of stress that I perceive that I'm under. In addition to the angle, the underside of my mandible undergoes considerable decalcification when I feel really good, usually with feelings of empathy and sympathy for others. This picture adequately demonstrates it. Note how there is a region of concavity in between his jaw angle and his chin.

Occipital bun - The bump at the back of your skull. Some people (especially males) have a very prominent one, which is very obvious upon tactile examination. When I feel good, this flattens out a lot, and it has flattened out many times before taking vitamin K2, when I ate oysters and liver together (I suspect the combination of zinc and B6, as it is known to powerfully affect DHT, and potentially estrogen). Before Peat, mine was probably always "hook" shaped, like in the linked picture.

Canthal tilt - The angle that your eye fissure makes. Angles that are positive are associated with youth, negative ones with age. My canthal tilt has increased several times before, but it is less easy to observe than the other two (you need to be looking in the mirror somewhat carefully), and seems harder to accomplish. It only happened, afaik, in conjuction with feelings of high confidence and superiority, and usually followed some type of major progress, either with girls, work, or project deadlines (girls also seem to dig me a lot more in this state). This picture accurately represents what my eyes and facial hair look like when I'm in this state (I have different pigmentation, more head hair, and a thinner nose).

Mentally, I feel the opposite of empathetic--I felt completely secure, but with no regard for others, and no regard for what others do or say to me. I remember @CoolTweetPete mentioning that he associates a high canthal tilt with a "savage energy", and that's an appropriate moniker for my mental state during those situations.

When I develop a positive tilt, the "concavity" that I mentioned above with the gonial angle always becomes less pronounced. The jawline doesn't "curve up" before reaching the chin.

I experience the softest, slowest growing facial hair (more on that later) in this state.

I've also noticed it increase slightly in the late morning, after having coffee with cream and sugar, a large bowel movement, and being in a fasted state.

Skull breadth - When I first started taking vitamin K2, it seemed like the circumference of my skull (breadth or widthwise), was getting larger. This was before I started taking aspirin.

Crunchiness -
When I take aspirin, and sometimes when I take K2, I experience a "crunchiness" in the joints of my spine and lower back. This happens very consistently with aspirin. Two threads, here and here, mention similar effects. It's likely related to my growing ~1.5 inches at the age of 24. @Peata @CoolTweetPete @Lecarpetron

Lips -
When I take the LifeExtension K complex supplement, my lips get bigger and much pinker temporarily. The supplement contains K1 and both forms of K2, MK-4 and MK-7.

Pigment -
My hair and skin both look lighter and redder in tone. I think my eyes may have lightened a bit, but they're naturally dark, so it's hard to tell.

Facial hair -
My facial hair is soft and slow growing when in a good mood. It's usually coarse upon waking, and becomes noticeably much softer after coffee and a bowel movement. Taking extra vitamin K2 makes it softer, and it is softest when I have a high canthal tilt.

Scalp hair -
Baldness reversed. Some recovery on the temples, complete recovery on main scalp, and the texture of hair became much finer, softer, shinier, and less wiry. I suspect that the hair follicle density on my beard also increased. Less oiliness, I can shower without shampoo now.

Sebum - Less oily skin and hair, as mentioned above. Oily skin is usually accompanied by hair loss in the shower, and coarser beard hair.

Nearly all of these traits can change within a matter of seconds, minutes, or hours. For example, if I have to deal with a sudden deadline, or I perceive that a certain task is more difficult than I thought it was, I get very quick calcification. If I have a bowel movement, my facial hair gets softer immediately after.

A lot of these traits only became observable to me after I started taking vitamin K2. Jaw width and reversal of hair loss, in particular, changed drastically after just a couple of days of K2. I had been following certain Peat things, like avoiding PUFAs, eating some liver/oysters, occasional carrot, coconut oil, for about two years before this. I didn't really make an effort with avoidance of fermentable fibers, excess starch, plenty of sugar, until recently, and it coincided with these changes.

You are amazingly self aware. Very cool.
 

Stramonium

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Sebum - Less oily skin and hair, as mentioned above. Oily skin is usually accompanied by hair loss in the shower, and coarser beard hair.

I have experience this myself as well as my father who has very oily skin and now has gone completely bald. Whenever there's less secretion of sebum my skin improves. It also seems closely related to my acne. Any insights about what could be triggering this reaction?
 

Diokine

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Excellent thread. I've seen you mention a few of these before, so I started paying attention. I don't notice such drastic changes in a short periods of time, but I have definitely noticed pretty profound changes as time goes on. All of these changes really started to kick into gear after increasing the influence of androgens (DHT supplementation, heavy weight lifting, etc.)

My gonial angle has shifted quite a bit, much closer to 90 degrees. This has changed the way my teeth fit together, for the better. There used to be some interference with my molars, they now mesh much nicer and it feels like my entire lower mandible has shifted forward. I also experience no jaw pain anymore, and I used to have really bad TMJ problems.
 
L

lollipop

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Great thread @Ivysaur - have noticed my facial structure and jaw have widened since starting on this sort of Peat - like journey.
 
OP
lvysaur

lvysaur

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I have experience this myself as well as my father who has very oily skin and now has gone completely bald. Whenever there's less secretion of sebum my skin improves. It also seems closely related to my acne. Any insights about what could be triggering this reaction?

During my teenage years, I had low sebum (dry scalp), thick and wiry hair, and dandruff. My hair began to get oilier, and my dandruff subsided moderately, before I noticed actual hair loss, at age 20-21.

I know that there are associations between PCOS, premature baldness, hirsutism, acne, sebum, androgens, and zinc. Zinc treats both hair loss and facial hair growth in women with PCOS, while also reducing markers of oxidative stress.

As I already mentioned, oysters + liver (or oysters + meat) had a tremendous effect on my hair, even prior to K2, and simultaneously made my facial hair softer, and skin redder. Zinc and B6 produce the same effect, but lower in intensity. If these women with PCOS were eating any meat at all in their diet, they could have experienced an effect similar to mine.

Zinc and B6 synergistically reduce 5-alpha-reductase activity (and thus DHT). dWhile there's plenty of evidence that DHT is broadly positive, I doubt that this

B6 reduces estrogen-induced gene expression (but also progestogen/androgen receptors)


I have definitely noticed pretty profound changes as time goes on. All of these changes really started to kick into gear after increasing the influence of androgens (DHT supplementation, heavy weight lifting, etc.)

What were your experiences with DHT supplementation, particularly with regards to scalp, face, and body hair?

This has changed the way my teeth fit together, for the better. There used to be some interference with my molars, they now mesh much nicer and it feels like my entire lower mandible has shifted forward.

I've experienced the same. My dental arch has gotten wider and more circular (it used to be parabolic), and the slightly crooked front tooth I have straightened out noticeably. I think this is more noticeable when I'm taking LifeExtension (includes K1 and MK-7) than when I take only Thorne's. If this is true, it might just be due to the "long half life" of MK-7.

It might be worth mentioning that I've never had problems with cavities, wisdom teeth, or needed braces, despite this.

You are amazingly self aware. Very cool.

Thanks.
 

Lecarpetron

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Cool thread! Despite my high K2 use, the muscle crunchies have been the only thing I've experienced on this list. To speed along the process, I'm soon getting a palate expander on my upper and lower teeth.

Going to keep up the high K2 dose though. Thanks for the inspiration!
 
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Fascinating stuff, @Ivysaur ! Would you be willing to share some of your own pictures of before and after? Also, oysters and liver together? I've been doing canned oysters twice a week and liver twice a week, but always separately. Is it the synergy of them that seems to make the most difference? Certainly down to try that but sad to allocate my favorite proteins to one evening twice a week, haha...

I'm honestly quite shocked (and admittedly skeptical) that such profound changes could happen in facial structure that rapidly simply in response to dietary adjustments...

Would you mind sharing some detail on your diet and supplements and other lifestyle factors that have had such a positive impact? Cheers, mate!
 

Dante

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Great post @Ivysaur . Just a small doubt though.
Zinc and DHT-decrease thing pops up time and again. From what i understand, it is dose dependent.
The study you point is an in-vitro aasay.
If we convert that mmol/l concentration to g/l or mg/l then we will be able to actually guess the amount of zinc used.

Now this study says that zinc at low concentration increases 5-AR reduction of T while at high concentration inhibits it.
The effect of zinc on the 5 alpha-reduction of testosterone by the hyperplastic human prostate gland. - PubMed - NCBI
A human study now -
Effect of zinc administration on plasma testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, and sperm count. - PubMed - NCBI
Two groups were there. One group with T levels < 4.8 ng/ml and other with T levels 4.8 ng/ml. Both groups were given zinc sulphate.
In the first group, T and DHT both increased while in the second group, no increase in T but increase in DHT.
So, increase in DHT anyways.
My take is that RDA dosage of zinc (~ 11 mg for men) will actually increase DHT. It's only when you go very high , we start
seeing an inverse relationship ( an inverse U shaped graph).
 

Drareg

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K2 is having effects on the masseter muscle for many people myself included,it's dose dependent,anything above 20mg and I see it and so do others,it's quick to happen, within a few hours.
Overall it seems to tighten the skin around the jawline up to the ear,noticeable even if you are carrying too much weight there I'm guessing.
I think this can give the illusion of immediate bone growth, I think it will effect bone growth but it may take longer to happen.

I think it's obvious more is going to be discovered about k2 mk4 that shows it's even more impressive than previously thought, I'm guessing it lessens ROS when other quinones can increase it.
I would argue most of the changes you are seeing are mainly from k2 mk4.

Have you tried higher dose idealabs quinone? Around 30-45 mg?
 

Tarmander

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Great post OP.

I think canthal tilt alone convinced me that whatever bulletproof was, I didn't want any.
 

DaveFoster

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I think that most of these benefits come from opposing the prostaglandin system and subsequent inflammation.

Many of the benefits of methylene blue, thyroid, K2, antibiotics, etc, the use of which commonly results in clearer skin, less acne, improved complexion, correlate with their antibiotic/anti-inflammatory effects, and I would suggest it's causal.
 
OP
lvysaur

lvysaur

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have noticed my facial structure and jaw have widened since starting on this sort of Peat - like journey.

Hopefully this question isn't too perturbing; I know that Ferraro is an Italian name. Do you know what region of Italy/Europe your ancestry hails from? I've noticed some dark-haired Italians from the northern regions, near central Europe and southern Germany, tend to have a chin and jawline similar to what I see in your picture.

Despite my high K2 use

How much were you taking? The maximum dosage I've taken at once is probably 4 mg, and no more than 5 mg in an entire day.

Would you be willing to share some of your own pictures of before and after? Also, oysters and liver together? I've been doing canned oysters twice a week and liver twice a week, but always separately. Is it the synergy of them that seems to make the most difference?

I'm wary of sharing my pictures on here due to employment reasons. Besides that, I did not take any pictures to document my changes, but I noticed these changes under the same lighting conditions in front of the same mirror, and I am absolutely certain that they took place (apart from the skull circumference one).

The greatest benefit from oysters and liver comes from eating them almost simultaneously; within 15 minutes of each other. I used to eat them on the same day, but hours apart, and I'd see only a slight resurgence of hair (but still enough to notice). I realized the effect of the time delay upon ordering oysters and meat at a restaurant, and watching my hair explode the next day. Any meat with B6 works for me, not just liver.


that such profound changes could happen in facial structure that rapidly simply in response to dietary adjustments...

Would you mind sharing some detail on your diet and supplements and other lifestyle factors

I probably should have made it clearer in the original post, that I was in a college environment at the time of these changes. Having a few social circles, leisure activities, and having well defined goals/purpose are extremely helpful, as well as seeing new things and traveling to new places. However, I was in this same environment before I saw these changes, so the supplements and diet were a necessary part of the equation.

Diet wise: coffee, milk and sugar, cheese, bananas, oranges, gelatin, occasional shellfish, occasional steak, carrots/bamboo, potatoes, noodles.

Supplements: Thorne's K2, LifeExtension K complex, Carlson's D3, occasional zinc picolinate and B6 P-5-P, and Unique E.

Spices/herbs/condiments: soy sauce, miso, sesame oil, scallion, onion, rosemary, thyme, oregano, garlic, ginger, mint, saffron, cardamon, black pepper.

I avoided spices like cumin and fenugreek; they have a pungent smell, and they make me smell.
 
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@Ivysaur, thanks for all the responses, looking at people and my own reflection differently these days. Can you speak on what's had the greatest effect on hair for you? I'm working on regaining some thickness that was lost last year due to major stress. Predominantly at the hair line and top.

With head shape, I notice a sharp and pronounced occipital bun and a slight bump right on the top of my head. Do you think the k2 complex would altar this? Been considering that for a while. Would it need to be taken with anything else supplemental wise?
 
OP
lvysaur

lvysaur

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Zinc and DHT-decrease thing pops up time and again. From what i understand, it is dose dependent.
The study you point is an in-vitro aasay.

Well, the first study you linked used supernatant from prostate glands (would this still contain actual living cells, or just the enzymes and smaller organelles?), and the second study used plasma levels. The study I linked used an in-vitro skin culture.

In addition, neither of those studies used zinc and B6 in tandem. The skin culture study also noted that zinc alone only majorly dropped DHT in high doses. When B6 was present, small doses of zinc could achieve high attenuation of DHT.

It could simply be that different tissues react differently. It intuitively sounds like an increase of DHT in plasma and prostate, but not in scalp skin, would be ideally desirable, and it seems like that may be how the respective tissues are "programmed", when you look at the actions of zinc alone on skin, prostate, and serum (low dose zinc mildly decreases DHT in skin, but raises it in the others).


I think this can give the illusion of immediate bone growth, I think it will effect bone growth but it may take longer to happen.

There was definitely actual bone growth in addition to the masseter hypertrophy. It's very obvious if I pull my skin taut and look in a mirror, or just feel my jawline.

The jaw changes seem to happen more reliably when I take the LifeExtension K complex than when I take Thorne's. The LifeExtension has K1 and MK-7 in addition to 1 mg of MK-4.

canthal tilt alone convinced me that whatever bulletproof was, I didn't want any.

You developed a negative canthal tilt while drinking bulletproof coffee?

Can you speak on what's had the greatest effect on hair for you?

Definitely vitamin K, and I would suggest trying all three forms and seeing what works best.

Having zinc and B6 together, especially from food sources, flattened out my occipital bun even before I started taking K2.
 

Tarmander

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You developed a negative canthal tilt while drinking bulletproof coffee?

Not me...

But:

dave-asprey.jpg
 

Tarmander

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I don't think this is a camera angle and lighting issue.

He will be selling bullet proof Botox next for a quick canthal lift,organically sourced from giant caterpillars in the Amazon,nice and plump.

Ha yeah. To be fair he has had pretty negatively arched tilts for awhile, I think even before he started the bulletproof madness. But it definitely made me pause when I initially discovered him.
 
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