Lethargic & Not Hungry In The Mornings, Manic & Ravenous In The Evenings

[Such_Saturation]

Just to give some context, this advice is from an unemployed crazy person.

same lol

 

[Makrosky]

Thanks, I'll give this a try when I can.

Such, are you bipolar or you just want to see if it can have benefits on "normal" (sorry to use that word) people? Please keep us posted!

 

[Makrosky]

Just to give some context, this advice is from an unemployed crazy person.

@Prosper that sounds like a textbook case of a type ii rapid cycling bipolar person. Do you ever get mixed episodes?

Why being unemployed is a detrimental factor? As long as you can make a living...

 

[Such_Saturation]

Such, are you bipolar or you just want to see if it can have benefits on "normal" (sorry to use that word) people? Please keep us posted!

Dunno I've never been to a shrink

 

[Prosper]

Yea... this is pretty common for people with overburdened livers. For a while I couldn't sleep at night even if I wanted to.

I can sleep, I just don't want to because the final hours before bed are the only time I'm able to appreciate being alive.

@Prosper that sounds like a textbook case of a type ii rapid cycling bipolar person. Do you ever get mixed episodes?

I did some reading for these terms and I'm not completely convinced. I'm not mentally healthy, but the descriptions I read seem more extreme than what I am going through. My typical daily cycle is anhedonic depression for the first half of the day, mild depersonalization/anxiety in the evening and total peace of mind at midnight. Sometimes the forementioned peace of mind takes on a negative twist where it would not phase me at all if I just disappeared from existence. Apart from that, the daily cycle is is very predictable, whereas bipolar fluctuation seems to be more erratic and vulnerable to triggers. I feel adequately functional at all times, just not happy or productive unless it's night.

 

[alywest]

@Prosper it sounds like you are having some sort of cortisol rush in the evening, and then by morning it's gone and you have to start all over again, and in the meantime your thyroid isn't getting to your cells and the cortisol is actually making it worse in the long run. do you take a thyroid supplement? do you take your temps when you wake up?

 

[Prosper]

do you take a thyroid supplement? do you take your temps when you wake up?

No for thyroid, not really interested in dabbling with it either. Haven't been monitoring temperature nor pulse but I acknowledge that it would be useful

 

[alywest]

If you do decide to try it based on low temps/pulse in the morning, I would recommend Tyromix because of the ratio of t4 to t3. And then selenium to make sure you're converting the t4. Unless you eat seafood. Typing this is making me realize I need to take selenium and up my thyroid a bit because I've been struggling in the morning, too. It's more of a steady struggle throughout the day and evening, and I want to go to bed usually no later than 9pm! But I have been a night owl in the past and I know the feeling. It's frustrating but if you don't take care of it now you'll end up like me when you're an old geyzer. I am 38 so not really that old. But old enough to have completed depleted my glycogen stores and feel like I'm 80! Woo Hoo!

 

[mujuro]

Well that is interesting. There's some depression and bi-polar in my extended family. However, I have never experienced definite manic periods, only depression. Sometimes I may feel overly confident and almost fearful about my intellectual potential and ability to learn anything I want, but these hypo-delusional bouts tend to happen only after ingesting caffeine. They never last long. Is this not normal? How does bipolarity manifest in you? I have been under the impression that the manic-depressive cycles last weeks instead of days or hours.

A classically trained psychiatrist would say you have bipolar disorder type II, but both myself and my psychiatrist dislike the strict definitions and categorizing in the DSM. Often people will meet half the criteria of one diagnosis, and half the criteria of another, but neither one or the other in full. It seems to me that bipolar operates on a spectrum. On one end you are nearing schizophrenia, and on the other end you have clinical depression.

It sounds like you're experiencing some degree of mania. Feeling grandiose, unstoppable, like you can master anything - all feelings I'm familiar with. Bipolar gets worse with chronicity, but how this manifests is different for everyone. In this way it is a degenerative disease, and that makes perfect sense when we consider the mechanisms: HPA and circadian rhythm dysfunction. Moods can oscillate every few hours to every few months. Everyone is different. I can't really describe what bipolar is like for me because it's all I know. My moods, energy, sleep, concentration, memory and libido all become volatile and unpredictable when things fall out of place or I do not stick to my medication. These are pretty typical reactions when an average person misses a few nights of sleep, but for bipolar it seems to be their main state of existence, which is why there is so much focus on bipolar as a disorder of circadian rhythm, and why good sleep is a medication in itself. Lithium is lauded for its capacity to restore the natural sleep-wake cycle, provided you employ some sleep hygiene measures to help it along. For me it dissolves any kind of rage or anger, and makes me impervious to insult. I had one of my teachers rip me apart the other day about my apparent laziness and I was giggling inside about how much it bothered her.

 

[Prosper]

@mujuro I see. I was actually evaluated by a psychiatrist just last week by the request of the psychologist from local unemployment office, who was of the opinion that my mental issues require attention. He made me fill out all kind of questionnaires, bipolar included, but didn't seem to be concerned about me checking a couple of boxes on it.

I commented earlier that I don't identify much with the commonly listed symptoms of bipolar. The daily cycles I get are predictable. Well, I very rarely experience anger like you. I hardly experience any emotions in any state of mind. My depression has never had the classic low serotonin symptoms of crying, low self worth, changes in appetite and sleep etc. Only extreme disinterest towards everything, undecisiveness, blank mind etc which from my understanding point towards low dopamine.

 

[michael94]

I can sleep, I just don't want to because the final hours before bed are the only time I'm able to appreciate being alive.




I did some reading for these terms and I'm not completely convinced. I'm not mentally healthy, but the descriptions I read seem more extreme than what I am going through. My typical daily cycle is anhedonic depression for the first half of the day, mild depersonalization/anxiety in the evening and total peace of mind at midnight. Sometimes the forementioned peace of mind takes on a negative twist where it would not phase me at all if I just disappeared from existence. Apart from that, the daily cycle is is very predictable, whereas bipolar fluctuation seems to be more erratic and vulnerable to triggers. I feel adequately functional at all times, just not happy or productive unless it's night.

part Werwolf

 

[Memento]

@mujuro I see. I was actually evaluated by a psychiatrist just last week by the request of the psychologist from local unemployment office, who was of the opinion that my mental issues require attention. He made me fill out all kind of questionnaires, bipolar included, but didn't seem to be concerned about me checking a couple of boxes on it.

I commented earlier that I don't identify much with the commonly listed symptoms of bipolar. The daily cycles I get are predictable. Well, I very rarely experience anger like you. I hardly experience any emotions in any state of mind. My depression has never had the classic low serotonin symptoms of crying, low self worth, changes in appetite and sleep etc. Only extreme disinterest towards everything, undecisiveness, blank mind etc which from my understanding point towards low dopamine.

The depression part sounds similar what I had when I was younger. I even got ADD diagnosis five years ago, but those meds ****88 me up real good. I think I ended up being in some kind of psychotic state for a very long time and I'm afraid that period left me with some lasting damage.

Don't get too hung up on terms and definitions, they rarely line up with reality anyway. Try different things and see what works.

 

[mt_dreams]

I can sleep, I just don't want to because the final hours before bed are the only time I'm able to appreciate being alive.

for me there's a definate stillness/serenity to post midnight which i enjoy when i don't have a set schedule and it is not demanded of me to wake up early. im quite certain that cortisol is lowest at this time of day, and i've noticed my brain waves are also slowest at this time

 

[Memento]

20-30mg elemental lithium divided into 2-3 doses daily. I think mujuro is spot on above, I am very likely on the bipolar spectrum too and had similar circadian rhythm as OP since early puberty at least.

I've had some weird symptoms that might have something to do with the lithium. I might have to change my opinion about the safety of lithium orotate in those amounts, lower dose should be fine. I suspect there might be some kind of a toxicity build up that doesn't occur with carbonate form.

 

[Blossom]

What could cause this kind of daily rhythm? I've been like this for as long as I remember. I feel like my mind and body never fully wake up until the last few hours before going to bed. Is there such thing as a natural night owl, or does predominantly night time oriented productivity always point towards a hormonal dysfunction, as some here have suggested? I have very creative and intuitive mind, but only when the sun has gone down. It would be excellent to be able to tap into this state of mind straight out of the bed.

I think there are people who are natural night owls. Having worked night shift off and on for a couple decades now I can tell that it comes more easily/naturally for some people compared to others. Perhaps it might be an interesting experiment and see how things go for you by taking advantage of your nightly creativity regardless of if it fits into what is considered a normal schedule. I'm also pretty sure that all through out history we have had people who were night owls and they served an important part in society by getting needed things done and protecting people and animals while most were sleeping. Who knows but we may not have even survived without a few night owls in our midst!
I personally find nights pretty productive because there are fewer people around and less distraction!
Certainly your daily rhythm could be due hormonal dysregulation or some other health issue but since you mention it has always been that way it could just be how you are wired so to speak and nothing ominous.
It wasn't too long ago that left handed children were forced to write with their right hand and punished when it didn't turn out well. I do think being a night owl is often just a normal variation of being human and no more "wrong" than being left handed.

 

[fradon]

@tara It doesn't seem to matter much when I go to sleep and wake up. Only if I wake up early in the morning I feel worse. When I was in school I went to bed at 9-11 pm and woke up around 7-9 am. I was angry and groggy every morning. Stared into distance in passive thought during morning classes. Back then I didn't drink coffee nor stare at screens after 8 pm. Now that I'm unemployed I have had periods where I got up at 6 pm and went to sleep early in the morning. I usually felt like I could focus on my hobbies after midnight. Even then, the first hours of being awake were unproductive..

sound like depression...staying up late at night and sleep deprivation can act like an antidepressant by boosting dopamine and cortisol

now you have to figure out what is the cause of your depression: environmental, mental, physical, or emotional.

you might just be able to fix it by going outside for an hour and getting some UV light to boost vitamin D and reset your circadian rhythm and boost your dopamine levels. but if your issues are lack of employment or school stress etc then you will have to deal with those things.

your low energy and depressive state acts like a cocoon to keep you away from the stress you are avoiding. could also be something called a calcium shell where your body becomes numb and lame because of prolong stress...what helps that is b6 and vitamin c in the short term.

 

[Prosper]

sound like depression...staying up late at night and sleep deprivation can act like an antidepressant by boosting dopamine and cortisol

now you have to figure out what is the cause of your depression: environmental, mental, physical, or emotional.

you might just be able to fix it by going outside for an hour and getting some UV light to boost vitamin D and reset your circadian rhythm and boost your dopamine levels. but if your issues are lack of employment or school stress etc then you will have to deal with those things.

your low energy and depressive state acts like a cocoon to keep you away from the stress you are avoiding. could also be something called a calcium shell where your body becomes numb and lame because of prolong stress...what helps that is b6 and vitamin c in the short term.

Well yes, indeed, I have been diagnosed with moderate depression thrice in the last few years. This kind of timeline has given plenty of room to experiment with potential solutions. Exercise, diet, art, socalizing, supplements, drugs do help in varying degrees, but are nowhere near what could be called a cure.

My depression is mostly dysthymic and dissociative in its nature. I'm practically functional, only deeply passionless and unable to identify with my own life. There's nothing I desire out of life, and the more I live the firmer this sentiment grows.The dysthymia is so tightly weaved into my worldview and experience of the everyday reality that I don't expect to ever "get better". I've learned to accept that the detached and apathetic lens through which I experience life may possibly be a fundamental characteristic who I am and is here to stay.

 

[fradon]

Well yes, indeed, I have been diagnosed with moderate depression thrice in the last few years. This kind of timeline has given plenty of room to experiment with potential solutions. Exercise, diet, art, socalizing, supplements, drugs do help in varying degrees, but are nowhere near what could be called a cure.

My depression is mostly dysthymic and dissociative in its nature. I'm practically functional, only deeply passionless and unable to identify with my own life. There's nothing I desire out of life, and the more I live the firmer this sentiment grows.The dysthymia is so tightly weaved into my worldview and experience of the everyday reality that I don't expect to ever "get better". I've learned to accept that the detached and apathetic lens through which I experience life may possibly be a fundamental characteristic who I am and is here to stay.

do you think you are addicted to being yourself to the point that if there was a cure you would totally rebel from it because you are so used to feeling like you do that feeling postive would make you feel horrible or anxious.

i ask this because many times when i was younger i tried to break away from many mental traps only to run right back to them when ever i felt good because feeling good was foreign to me. I dont know if you have taken the Myers bRIGG TEST to found out your personality type but when i was self exploring that was avenue that helped a lot. One of the things that INFP types have is a lot of depression and one guy said when ever he felt that way he just found salvation by helping others and being of service to people. He found happines buy not focussing on himself so much and focussing on others.
maybe find away to be of service to one other person or even just an animal like a cat.

 

[Prosper]

do you think you are addicted to being yourself to the point that if there was a cure you would totally rebel from it because you are so used to feeling like you do that feeling postive would make you feel horrible or anxious.

i ask this because many times when i was younger i tried to break away from many mental traps only to run right back to them when ever i felt good because feeling good was foreign to me. I dont know if you have taken the Myers bRIGG TEST to found out your personality type but when i was self exploring that was avenue that helped a lot. One of the things that INFP types have is a lot of depression and one guy said when ever he felt that way he just found salvation by helping others and being of service to people. He found happines buy not focussing on himself so much and focussing on others.
maybe find away to be of service to one other person or even just an animal like a cat.

That's a great question. It's definitely worth acknowledging that even negative mindsets are, in a way, addicting. When down, I don't necessarily want to get better. But when I happen to feel good, I can appreciate and embrace it. I don't think I tend to perceive my state of mind at any given moment as being a part of my identity. I hardly even have a recognizable sense of identity for that matter.

MBTI tests tend to type me as an INTP. On Jungian cognitive function tests my two strongest functions are by far Ti and Ni (instead Ti/Ne of an archetypal INTP). To me this shows a clear orientation towards the inner world to an extent that does not seem healthy. Yet I don't feel like I'm ever particularly deep inside my mind. I exist within a kind of limbo where I'm never immersed in the external world and never completely attuned to the internal. I can only feel the mind processing something the same way I can vaguely hear cars passing my house.