Lethargic & Not Hungry In The Mornings, Manic & Ravenous In The Evenings

[Prosper]

What could cause this kind of daily rhythm? I've been like this for as long as I remember. I feel like my mind and body never fully wake up until the last few hours before going to bed. Is there such thing as a natural night owl, or does predominantly night time oriented productivity always point towards a hormonal dysfunction, as some here have suggested? I have very creative and intuitive mind, but only when the sun has gone down. It would be excellent to be able to tap into this state of mind straight out of the bed.

 

[Frankdee20]

My first guess would be what you may have heard already, some kind of HPA thing, high Cortisol at night. Coffee doesn’t help you in the AM ?

 

[Prosper]

My first guess would be what you may have heard already, some kind of HPA thing, high Cortisol at night. Coffee doesn’t help you in the AM ?

Coffee does wake me up but I don't enjoy the state of mind it gives. What kind of factors could lead to high nightime cortisol? Low blood sugar? Perhaps snoring/apnea?

 

[Frankdee20]

Coffee does wake me up but I don't enjoy the state of mind it gives. What kind of factors could lead to high nightime cortisol? Low blood sugar? Perhaps snoring/apnea?

Are you getting insomnia with that ? A degree of Cortisol helps maintain sugar levels. I don’t know what would cause high Cortisol other than DHEA to Cortisol ratio being off. Can you invest in a test that measures this ratio 4 Times a day ? Maybe saliva ? This is tricky honestly, and I’m only speculating based on what knowledge I retained.

 

[Memento]

Hate to sound like a broken record, but lithium totally reset my circadian rhythm. Also I started sleeping in front of a window with morning sun waking me up.

 

[Prosper]

Are you getting insomnia with that ? A degree of Cortisol helps maintain sugar levels. I don’t know what would cause high Cortisol other than DHEA to Cortisol ratio being off. Can you invest in a test that measures this ratio 4 Times a day ? Maybe saliva ? This is tricky honestly, and I’m only speculating based on what knowledge I retained.

I never have trouble falling and staying asleep, I just feel so good that I would rather stay up than go to bed. It's the only time of the day when I feel engaged with life. When I go sleep I can't wait to wake up in the morning and resume whatever productive thing I was doing before bed... then I wake up and I don't feel like doing anything until the next evening.

Hate to sound like a broken record, but lithium totally reset my circadian rhythm. Also I started sleeping in front of a window with morning sun waking me up.

Did lithium increase the level of mental freshness you wake up with?

 

[Makrosky]

Hate to sound like a broken record, but lithium totally reset my circadian rhythm. Also I started sleeping in front of a window with morning sun waking me up.

What kind of lithium ? Is it Peat friendly ?

 

[Memento]

Did lithium increase the level of mental freshness you wake up with?

Yes it does. I used to be totally useless for few hours after waking up. YMMV of course, but I think there are other similar anecdotes around.

What kind of lithium ? Is it Peat friendly ?

I think Peat would recommend carbonate form. I've only used orotate so far.

 

[Makrosky]

Yes it does. I used to be totally useless for few hours after waking up. YMMV of course, but I think there are other similar anecdotes around.



I think Peat would recommend carbonate form. I've only used orotate so far.

Is it safe? It is a drug for treating bipolar disorders, right?

 

[Memento]

Likely very safe in low doses. I would try to find the lowest possible dose providing the needed effect. Time of administration might be significant too.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Yes it does. I used to be totally useless for few hours after waking up. YMMV of course, but I think there are other similar anecdotes around.



I think Peat would recommend carbonate form. I've only used orotate so far.

Is your regimen somewhere?

 

[tara]

I never have trouble falling and staying asleep, I just feel so good that I would rather stay up than go to bed.

I've had patches like this. GEt to bed late, wake up groggy, finally get some energy and motivation and concentration in the evening. I don't think it's ideal for me.

Have you tried going to bed and sleeping during dark hours anyway? You might find you start waking up hungry, which gives you the opportunity to eat well early on, and get into the day, and you might be able to retrain yourself quite quickly.
I guess you've tried some of the obvious things, like:
- no coffee after midday,
- most food during daylight, and a little supper only if you need it to sleep
- getting outside in the daylight as soon as possible in the morning.
- minimising blue light after dusk

 

[mujuro]

Everything you describe is pretty typical of those with bipolar disorder, which is after all a dysfunction of cortisol/circadian rhythm. I was never, ever hungry in the morning. Sometimes, all day I'd go without food. It surfaced again, the hunger problems, along with the recent stress of exams and bills. I added in lithium a few days ago, 125mg carbonate, and I'm hungry in the morning again. My sleep feels very deep and restful as well. Luckily the bedroom in our new place directly faces the morning sun and there is no escaping its rays. This helps a lot I think. I've never had that before in my life.

 

[Memento]

Is your regimen somewhere?

20-30mg elemental lithium divided into 2-3 doses daily. I think mujuro is spot on above, I am very likely on the bipolar spectrum too and had similar circadian rhythm as OP since early puberty at least.

 

[Andman]

ive had this in the past during periods of feeling shitty, high stress and when going out a lot at night. Fixed it with circadian rhythm stuff mostly, iE blue blocking glasses, same time going to sleep/getting up etc.

 

[burtlancast]

Does the OP have any mercury amalgams?

Amalgams mercury vapors are notorious for interfering with the hormonal and enzymatic systems regulating sleep.

 

[Prosper]

@tara It doesn't seem to matter much when I go to sleep and wake up. Only if I wake up early in the morning I feel worse. When I was in school I went to bed at 9-11 pm and woke up around 7-9 am. I was angry and groggy every morning. Stared into distance in passive thought during morning classes. Back then I didn't drink coffee nor stare at screens after 8 pm. Now that I'm unemployed I have had periods where I got up at 6 pm and went to sleep early in the morning. I usually felt like I could focus on my hobbies after midnight. Even then, the first hours of being awake were unproductive.

@mujuro @Memento Well that is interesting. There's some depression and bi-polar in my extended family. However, I have never experienced definite manic periods, only depression. Sometimes I may feel overly confident and almost fearful about my intellectual potential and ability to learn anything I want, but these hypo-delusional bouts tend to happen only after ingesting caffeine. They never last long. Is this not normal? How does bipolarity manifest in you? I have been under the impression that the manic-depressive cycles last weeks instead of days or hours.

@burtlancast Fortunately no.

 

[Such_Saturation]

20-30mg elemental lithium divided into 2-3 doses daily. I think mujuro is spot on above, I am very likely on the bipolar spectrum too and had similar circadian rhythm as OP since early puberty at least.

Thanks, I'll give this a try when I can.

 

[michael94]

Yea... this is pretty common for people with overburdened livers. For a while I couldn't sleep at night even if I wanted to.

 

[Memento]

Thanks, I'll give this a try when I can.

Just to give some context, this advice is from an unemployed crazy person.

@Prosper that sounds like a textbook case of a type ii rapid cycling bipolar person. Do you ever get mixed episodes?