Less Fat Oxidation For Better Fat Loss

[Hans]

This study discussed that it's not the rate of fat oxidation or the amount of fat oxidized that leads to better fat loss. The "fat-burning hypothesis" is starting to fail.
HIIT, which uses mostly glucose/glycogen as a fuel source leads to better fat loss than slow to moderate pace cardio.

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"As exercise intensity increases from the sedentary state, the human body becomes increasingly anaerobic and more dependent on carbohydrates (particularly the glycogen stored in skeletal muscle) as a fuel, with a concomitant decrease in energy dependence from plasma fatty acid (produced mainly from adipose tissue) (Romijn et al. 1993) (Figs. 2A and 2B). The most important evidence against this “fat-burning hypothesis” comes from a study using indirect calorimetry in a respiration chamber. This study shows no difference in 24 h fatty acid oxidation between sedentary and exercise conditions (Melanson et al. 2002b). Furthermore, exercise does not increase 24 h fatty acid oxidation when energy balance is maintained (Melanson et al. 2009). Both aerobic endurance training and anaerobic weight training do not appear to increase 24 h fatty acid oxidation"

"However, a recent systemic review has concluded that low intensity exercise training is less effective in reducing body fat than moderate to high intensity exercise training (Tremblay et al. 1994; Vissers et al. 2013). ... Furthermore, 10-week HIIT (anaerobic in nature) decreases more total body fat and trunk fat than 40 min of continuous aerobic exercise at 60% VO2peak, when energy expenditure and weekly frequency are comparable (Trapp et al. 2008)."​

The study also discussed that consuming a meal further away from exercise, as to increase fat oxidation, leads to worse fat loss than when a meal is consumed right before or after training.

"Delaying meal supplementation after exercise attenuates increases in glycogen storage (Ivy et al. 1988) and glucose uptake in exercised leg (Levenhagen et al. 2001), which also leads to less effective fat decreases by exercise training (Suzuki et al. 1999; Trapp et al. 2008). Therefore, workout schedule in relation to meal time, particularly when circulatory hydrocarbon sources are surging before being partitioned to adipose tissues, would be crucial to maximize the negative balance of abdominal fat cells for triglyceride storage. This concept is supported by evidence from a randomized study in which weight-trained men consuming a meal immediately before and after training demonstrated a greater decrease in fat mass and an increase in lean body mass compared with consuming a meal in the early morning and late evening (Cribb and Hayes 2006). Similar to this human trial, delaying meals in animals for 4 h after exercise training results in greater fat accumulation and less muscle mass compared with animals receiving a meal immediately after exercise (Suzuki et al. 1999)"
​

So how is this possible then? The fuel is used for repair and creation of new cells instead of oxidation.

"In compliance with the second law of thermodynamics, exercise is a stress that increases the entropy of the cell, a highly ordered molecular aggregate. To bring a challenged cell or tissue back to a stable condition, damaged and energy-depleted muscle fibers will have to demand more postprandial hydrocarbon species compared with adipose tissues, leading to whole-body hydrocarbon source redistribution and resulting in a more favorable body composition"

"Some degraded hydrocarbon species may be recycled into challenged muscle tissues, where reconstruction is in high demand...Tissue growth is probably the most powerful magnet for hydrocarbon source settlement, which may cause a reciprocal size reduction of other tissues."​

Most interestingly, they took swimmers from sea level and moved they to an altitude training camp at 2300 m above sea level to decrease oxygen availability and increase CO2.

"In contrast to the sea-level counterparts (n = 8), body fat (measured by dual-energy X-ray absorptiometry (DEXA)) in all of the swimmers was unequivocally decreased and muscle mass was increased following altitude hypoxia exposure."

"Small decreases in blood oxygen saturation under such hypoxic conditions (97% versus 93%) resulted in an increased blood distribution to skeletal muscle (Chia et al. 2013). Because glucose and insulin are carried by blood, hypoxia would favor fuel deposition to muscle tissue versus adipose tissue"
​

And lastly,

"The fat-burning theory, referring to increased conversion of abdominal fat into carbon dioxide via oxidation during and after exercise, is not uniformly backed up by scientific evidence and such concept may lead to less effective recommendations for abdominal fat reduction regarding the type of exercise"
​

Another big reason for the superiority of HIIT and resistance training, is that it stimulates the production of new mitochondria to a greater extent than slow pace cardio, improves their quality and promotes greater metabolic flexibility.

 

[SOMO]

Most of the weight loss (pounds and inches) from burning fat comes from releasing stored water, i.e. dehydration.

I think a bigger issue is that people simply don't work out ENOUGH.

Regardless of fuel oxidation, if you're just sitting on the computer you're not burning calories and decreasing calories or increasing energy expenditure will burn body fat.

And I do think cardio increases the capacity of lungs and heart volume in a way that lifting weights does not. Basically, mixing it up (some cardio and some weight lifting) is probably the best. For all the negativity surrounding cardio on this forum, when I do moderate weight lifting, my muscles hurt for DAYS after indicating cellular damage (some call it "hypertrophy."), but my muscles generally do not hurt even from intense, long cardio.

Therefore, workout schedule in relation to meal time, particularly when circulatory hydrocarbon sources are surging before being partitioned to adipose tissues, would be crucial to maximize the negative balance of abdominal fat cells for triglyceride storage. This concept is supported by evidence from a randomized study in which weight-trained men consuming a meal immediately before and after training demonstrated a greater decrease in fat mass and an increase in lean body mass compared with consuming a meal in the early morning and late evening (Cribb and Hayes 2006). Similar to this human trial, delaying meals in animals for 4 h after exercise training results in greater fat accumulation and less muscle mass compared with animals receiving a meal immediately after exercise (Suzuki et al. 1999)"

Is the effect the same in obese subjects?

If you're already obese or trying to gain weight, consuming MORE food and working out will not, somehow, lead to more weight loss than if you exercised semi-fasted and did not consume anything after.

 

[tankasnowgod]

If you're already obese or trying to gain weight, consuming MORE food and working out will not, somehow, lead to more weight loss than if you exercised semi-fasted and did not consume anything after.

The study was all about timing. Even if you did a Pre and Post workout meal of 30g of carbs and 20g of protein, that's only 200 cals per meal, 400 total. There is no reason even an obese subject counting calories can't fit that into their daily meal plan.

 

[Hans]

Most of the weight loss (pounds and inches) from burning fat comes from releasing stored water, i.e. dehydration.

Yes acutely, but long term, over weeks, there will be a gradual decrease in total weight. If you take the averages over weeks it will rule out de- and rehydration, edema, etc. So fat loss is actually from a reduction in fat mass.

I think a bigger issue is that people simply don't work out ENOUGH.

Regardless of fuel oxidation, if you're just sitting on the computer you're not burning calories and decreasing calories or increasing energy expenditure will burn body fat.

Exercise increases calories burned by about 150 to 600 per session. The average weigh lifting session of around an hour burns 300 calories. Pretty sad. Plus training more will decrease the metabolic rate and energy expenditure as a compensatory mechanism and shut down fat loss.
Like I mentioned in another thread, what predicts fat loss the most is adaptive thermogenesis. People that experience the least drop in energy expenditure during a fast will gain the least amount of weight during overfeeding. Thyroid, ATP production and uncoupling play a role but it's rather minor. What plays the biggest role is non-exercise adaptive thermogenesis which varies between 2000 calories per person. This is fidgeting, can't sit still, moving a lot, etc., out of your own. Without having to think about it. I won't say exercise is the best for fat loss and can become counterintuitive. Exercise is helpful yes, especially HIIT and other explosive exercises, but only when done to a point where you still get adequate recovery and not cause yourself too much damage.

And I do think cardio increases the capacity of lungs and heart volume in a way that lifting weights does not. Basically, mixing it up (some cardio and some weight lifting) is probably the best. For all the negativity surrounding cardio on this forum, when I do moderate weight lifting, my muscles hurt for DAYS after indicating cellular damage (some call it "hypertrophy."), but my muscles generally do not hurt even from intense, long cardio.

VO2 max correlates with metabolic flexibility and insulin sensitivity. Plus, HIIT is also very good at promoting VO2max.
Prolonged cardio is the most harmful and inflammatory (it increase IL-6 and cortisol due to glycogen depletion).

Also your muscle should be a little sore after training intense, but not a lot. It might indicate that you are rather undertrained. Muscle damage doesn't indicate or predict muscle growth, it just indicates muscle damage.

If you're already obese or trying to gain weight, consuming MORE food and working out will not, somehow, lead to more weight loss than if you exercised semi-fasted and did not consume anything after.

Like @tankasnowgod mentioned it is about meal timing. The two diets were equal calories, it was just the timing that differed.

 

[YourUniverse]

So can someone, maybe @Hans , give a final Rx on caffeine & nicotine on fat loss/body composition? AFAIK, both increase metabolism, but through increasing lipolysis - Thanks

 

[YourUniverse]

What plays the biggest role is non-exercise adaptive thermogenesis which varies between 2000 calories per person. This is fidgeting, can't sit still, moving a lot, etc., out of your own. Without having to think about it.

The term for this that I'm familiar with is NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis). LISS decreases NEAT in a dose-dependent manner.

 

[Hans]

The term for this that I'm familiar with is NEAT (Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis). LISS decreases NEAT in a dose-dependent manner.

Haha sorry, my bad. I was reading so much about metabolic flexibility, adaptive thermogenesis and so on that I mingled the two.

So can someone, maybe @Hans , give a final Rx on caffeine & nicotine on fat loss/body composition? AFAIK, both increase metabolism, but through increasing lipolysis - Thanks

Caffeine increases lipolysis, fat oxidation and the metabolic rate. If it increased lipolysis only and promoted fat oxidation at the expense of glucose and without an increase in metabolic rate, that would be troublesome.
Thyroid, testosterone, DHEA, etc., also increase lipolysis so lipolysis is not a bad thing. An interesting fact is that lean healthy people oxidize more fat (more at a time) than diabetic people, because they are more metabolically flexibly. Some people just can't handle caffeine very well because they metabolize it much slower.

 

[Elie]

Wonder of there is a way to quantify HIIT / weight lifting as to how much is effective wothout getting into stress response mode
Anyone?

 

[tca300]

Wonder of there is a way to quantify HIIT / weight lifting as to how much is effective wothout getting into stress response mode
Anyone?

I have been experimenting with doing a minimalist approach for several months.

Weighted neutral grip pull ups
Squats
Deadlifts
Bench press
Chest supported row
Lateral raises
Tricep Extensions
Calf raises
Thick bar holds
Chest supported reverse fly or face pulls
& weighted neck exercises

I divide these into a modified push pull routine doing half of them on a Wednesday, and the other half on Saturday. I do just one set of each, but the intensity is very high, going to failure ( except squats ), with good form.

This is much much less taxing to me than doing typical routines, and I have been making very nice progress. I do believe that this would only be appropriate for experienced weight lifters who actually know how to lift to their true maximum with good form.

My new approach to weight lifting is to do at little as it takes to still see progress, as this leads to the least amount of stress/cortisol/estrogen in my opinion.

Also eating a carb source before training, or even sipping on a carb drink during training will help keep stress lower.

I also dont do HIIT, as I like light daily concentric work on my airdyne, and walking, they are restorative, and dont cause unnecessary stress.

 

[Elie]

I have been experimenting with doing a minimalist approach for several months.

Weighted neutral grip pull ups
Squats
Deadlifts
Bench press
Chest supported row
Lateral raises
Tricep Extensions
Calf raises
Thick bar holds
Chest supported reverse fly or face pulls
& weighted neck exercises

I divide these into a modified push pull routine doing half of them on a Wednesday, and the other half on Saturday. I do just one set of each, but the intensity is very high, going to failure ( except squats ), with good form.

This is much much less taxing to me than doing typical routines, and I have been making very nice progress. I do believe that this would only be appropriate for experienced weight lifters who actually know how to lift to their true maximum with good form.

My new approach to weight lifting is to do at little as it takes to still see progress, as this leads to the least amount of stress/cortisol/estrogen in my opinion.

Also eating a carb source before training, or even sipping on a carb drink during training will help keep stress lower.

I also dont do HIIT, as I like light daily concentric work on my airdyne, and walking, they are restorative, and dont cause unnecessary stress.

I relate to your approach. I don't go to the gym or use weights. I just use my body weight to do different exercise (various push ups and abdominal exercises, squats etc.) and perform the motions of flexion and extension very slowly (12 sec each motion or hold the position) also to failure. Only thing, while it prevents my muscles from withering it hasn't helped me lose the extra 10-20 lbs I gained after the age of 35. With this new approach presented here (200 cal of glucose rich food before and after exercise) I wonder if 15 min of this type of exercise on most days be enough to start losing some weight.

 

[ShotTrue]

I relate to your approach. I don't go to the gym or use weights. I just use my body weight to do different exercise (various push ups and abdominal exercises, squats etc.) and perform the motions of flexion and extension very slowly (12 sec each motion or hold the position) also to failure. Only thing, while it prevents my muscles from withering it hasn't helped me lose the extra 10-20 lbs I gained after the age of 35. With this new approach presented here (200 cal of glucose rich food before and after exercise) I wonder if 15 min of this type of exercise on most days be enough to start losing some weight.

Bodyweight exercises can only add so much muscle mass. Also I believe Brad Schoenfield in his recent book showed time (length) of exercise did not add an increase in muscle mass. So it is much more important to train at a near failure range of 8-20 reps

 

[YourUniverse]

My new approach to weight lifting is to do at little as it takes to still see progress, as this leads to the least amount of stress/cortisol/estrogen in my opinion.

This is the foundation of DC training, forum member @sladerunner69 does this

 

[tca300]

This is the foundation of DC training, forum member @sladerunner69 does this

Its really cool when multiple people come to the same/similar conclusion without having any contact with eachother.

 

[Inspired]

I still can't wrap my head around less fat oxidization somehow being more effective for fat loss. I don't know if I believe it.

Try eating sugar all day and then exercising. Your blood sugar drops. You'll feel hypoglycemic and crave sugar so bad that you'll stop your workout and binge eat. So to prevent that......you have to exercise with......basically a full stomach. That's unrealistic.

If you are at your desired bodyfat level, then I guess you can try to make it work. But if you want to burn substantial fat, then I don't see how you can beat fat oxidization.

 

[Inspired]

This is the foundation of DC training, forum member @sladerunner69 does this

I accidentally figured out that I got better muscle gains by working out less often. By being lazy. Intensity matters though. Go bust out pullups with intensity, like you want to rip the bar off the wall etc.

And take time off. A week, or more. Multiple weeks sometimes. Your muscles will grow. As I said, I discovered this by a accident. I was lazy and ended up recovering and growing way more.

I think people that lift multiple times a week etc, have a tough time recovering fully. In fact, it won't happen.

But for some people, they need the schedule, and they need to do it often, or they won't do it at all.

 

[ShotTrue]

I accidentally figured out that I got better muscle gains by working out less often. By being lazy. Intensity matters though. Go bust out pullups with intensity, like you want to rip the bar off the wall etc.

And take time off. A week, or more. Multiple weeks sometimes. Your muscles will grow. As I said, I discovered this by a accident. I was lazy and ended up recovering and growing way more.

I think people that lift multiple times a week etc, have a tough time recovering fully. In fact, it won't happen.

But for some people, they need the schedule, and they need to do it often, or they won't do it at all.

Idk my leg strength grew quite well working out 1 hour just on squats 3 times a week. I can't imagine someone healthy would take weeks for a muscle group to recover

 

[Inspired]

Squats are different.

Idk my leg strength grew quite well working out 1 hour just on squats 3 times a week. I can't imagine someone healthy would take weeks for a muscle group to recover

You don't need weeks to recover, but you'd be surprised at much you can grow by giving yourself a week or weeks off.

Squats are a little bit different though. The DOMS can be really crippling. It may be worth it to squat more often so you don't have to always reintroduce yourself to DOMS.

 

[Hans]

I still can't wrap my head around less fat oxidization somehow being more effective for fat loss. I don't know if I believe it.

Try eating sugar all day and then exercising. Your blood sugar drops. You'll feel hypoglycemic and crave sugar so bad that you'll stop your workout and binge eat. So to prevent that......you have to exercise with......basically a full stomach. That's unrealistic.

If you are at your desired bodyfat level, then I guess you can try to make it work. But if you want to burn substantial fat, then I don't see how you can beat fat oxidization.

The study was in terms of the different forms of exercise where HIIT is clearly better than slow pace cardio and it burns less fat.

Slow pace cardio can burn extra calories and make you more lean if your metabolism doesn't slow down as a compensatory mechanism.
Your muscles and heart burn fat all day long. Even if you eat a big carb meal you still burn fats and carbs at the same time measured by RQ.

You don't have to do cardio to lose fat though. Lots of people just add it in so that they can eat more. Eat more but train more also.

But for fat loss HIIT and resistance training are better than cardio. The two can be done together but that's really not needed for fat loss.

 

[ShotTrue]

The study was in terms of the different forms of exercise where HIIT is clearly better than slow pace cardio and it burns less fat.

Slow pace cardio can burn extra calories and make you more lean if your metabolism doesn't slow down as a compensatory mechanism.
Your muscles and heart burn fat all day long. Even if you eat a big carb meal you still burn fats and carbs at the same time measured by RQ.

You don't have to do cardio to lose fat though. Lots of people just add it in so that they can eat more. Eat more but train more also.

But for fat loss HIIT and resistance training are better than cardio. The two can be done together but that's really not needed for fat loss.

Good point. I’ve read from Brad Schoenfield that you make less muscle gain if you perform cardio the same day as weight training

 

[Hans]

Good point. I’ve read from Brad Schoenfield that you make less muscle gain if you perform cardio the same day as weight training

Well it depends on how many calories are available for muscle growth. If there is a big surplus some extra cardio will not hamper muscle growth. But if there isn't a lot of extra calories available cardio will hamper muscle growth.
Then you also have to take into consideration what kind of cardio it is (cycling, jogging, etc.) and the duration, frequency and intensity. Longer duration, more frequent and more intense cardio will hamper hypertrophy and strength to a greater extent. Jogging also has the greatest interference effect while cycling the least.
I'm not sure why someone would want to do cardio when bulking though unless they just really like it.