Leanness and physiology -- how does it all work (more of a rant)?

[MetabolicTrash]

So I obviously know more now than I did before about concepts regarding health.

At a time I would assume being shredded and muscly was way healthier and/or sustainable for you than being just normal in figure, but after being in these corners you learn to question the presumptions or mechanisms through which you once theorized.

I notice some people are always lean, tight and have solid-looking bodies. I am not saying it is a sign of great health just because it may immediately register as appealing to many in the West especially, but I do wonder how this works and the energy and chemistry behind it.

I personally always was a chubbier type guy until body images and growing and experiences made me think I had to be shredded and ripped (which I could never be even with starvation, stimulants and hormones combined). Yet I have noticed some people -- guys my age and older even -- having tight and better looking bodies despite never cutting back calories, taking hormones or anything.

One guy for example is older than me and has never counted a calorie in his life, and has always been dry/lean looking despite never dieting or touching a hormone. I used to never diet or touch a hormone and I was fat, blubbery and even a bit repulsive maybe to some by appearance.

If it is a matter of no concern it does not explain why two people who do not count calories in the same immediate environment and lifestyles but one is bone dry and lean 24/7 despite drinking, eating anything they want, low to zero exercise, etc.

I would chronically exercise, take fat burners and stims, hormones and starve myself and although I did keep losing weight I appeared sickly and could never get that mainstream desirable "tight" look.

I realize this concerns body image issues but the science and understanding behind this is more of what I wonder. I know of hormones and et. al and etc. but not sure what mixture or concoction breeds the super lean figures (healthy or not) despite zero exercise, variable dieting and no attention to health whatsoever.

I do not belive in calories in vs. calories out 100% on the super basic premise people align it with either since I restricted heavily and puffed up temporarily at times (scale would sometimes go up and stay up while eating under 1,500 calories a day and running miles while at others I felt charged and binged on anything in sight and weight never budged even if sedentary. I believe hormones and environment control this, so I would not surprised if, say, someone with high serotonin may be bone dry and lean while someone with less of it cumulatively may have a tendency to fatten up a bit quicker due to metabolic differences and past history of eating and so on.

I just find it a bit disappointing that I cannot live up to the standards of "good enough" body without controlling for so many things while others, even if less healthy one could argue, have dry and lean bodies even if they make no effort to try.

I mean I am not fat or really overweight much at all -- it is more just about the actual look and structure of the body composition and osmoregulation and metabolism I think than just "eat less." Plus I have not even scratched the surface on bloating in the midsection issues and such, which is a hole another worm hole.

Some never bloat despite binge drinking and such, while I still at times would be bloated even after long periods of diet watching, experimenting, restricting and dropping down under 150 even at 5'10"-ish. Yet I also know guys who are heavier even yet are the same height with zero bloat on their stomachs despite no dieting or even much exercise either. Same with those guys who complain of "moobs" while at 14% bodyfat while other guys near 20% and do not have them despite being chubbier relative to their size.

 

[DrJ]

I suspect a huge part of it has to do with the gut. I can lean out to a stomach line that would make a model jealous by taking lots of activated charcoal for several days and otherwise eating like normal. Same thing the few times I've been on antibiotics.

I suspect redsun is onto something with his histidelic phenotype also. Those chronically skinny people with big features. In my experimenting with taking histidine I lost close to 2 belt noches rapidly. But interesting enough, histidine will also increase stomach acid and the intestinal mucus layer which would likely reduce bacteria and increase gut health.

 

[Dr. B]

I suspect a huge part of it has to do with the gut. I can lean out to a stomach line that would make a model jealous by taking lots of activated charcoal for several days and otherwise eating like normal. Same thing the few times I've been on antibiotics.

I suspect redsun is onto something with his histidelic phenotype also. Those chronically skinny people with big features. In my experimenting with taking histidine I lost close to 2 belt noches rapidly. But interesting enough, histidine will also increase stomach acid and the intestinal mucus layer which would likely reduce bacteria and increase gut health.

what do you mean by skinny people with big features. like big eyes?
interesting, whats the dosage for charcoal, hows that work? whys it cause stomach reduction mate

So I obviously know more now than I did before about concepts regarding health.

At a time I would assume being shredded and muscly was way healthier and/or sustainable for you than being just normal in figure, but after being in these corners you learn to question the presumptions or mechanisms through which you once theorized.

I notice some people are always lean, tight and have solid-looking bodies. I am not saying it is a sign of great health just because it may immediately register as appealing to many in the West especially, but I do wonder how this works and the energy and chemistry behind it.

I personally always was a chubbier type guy until body images and growing and experiences made me think I had to be shredded and ripped (which I could never be even with starvation, stimulants and hormones combined). Yet I have noticed some people -- guys my age and older even -- having tight and better looking bodies despite never cutting back calories, taking hormones or anything.

One guy for example is older than me and has never counted a calorie in his life, and has always been dry/lean looking despite never dieting or touching a hormone. I used to never diet or touch a hormone and I was fat, blubbery and even a bit repulsive maybe to some by appearance.

If it is a matter of no concern it does not explain why two people who do not count calories in the same immediate environment and lifestyles but one is bone dry and lean 24/7 despite drinking, eating anything they want, low to zero exercise, etc.

I would chronically exercise, take fat burners and stims, hormones and starve myself and although I did keep losing weight I appeared sickly and could never get that mainstream desirable "tight" look.

I realize this concerns body image issues but the science and understanding behind this is more of what I wonder. I know of hormones and et. al and etc. but not sure what mixture or concoction breeds the super lean figures (healthy or not) despite zero exercise, variable dieting and no attention to health whatsoever.

I do not belive in calories in vs. calories out 100% on the super basic premise people align it with either since I restricted heavily and puffed up temporarily at times (scale would sometimes go up and stay up while eating under 1,500 calories a day and running miles while at others I felt charged and binged on anything in sight and weight never budged even if sedentary. I believe hormones and environment control this, so I would not surprised if, say, someone with high serotonin may be bone dry and lean while someone with less of it cumulatively may have a tendency to fatten up a bit quicker due to metabolic differences and past history of eating and so on.

I just find it a bit disappointing that I cannot live up to the standards of "good enough" body without controlling for so many things while others, even if less healthy one could argue, have dry and lean bodies even if they make no effort to try.

I mean I am not fat or really overweight much at all -- it is more just about the actual look and structure of the body composition and osmoregulation and metabolism I think than just "eat less." Plus I have not even scratched the surface on bloating in the midsection issues and such, which is a hole another worm hole.

Some never bloat despite binge drinking and such, while I still at times would be bloated even after long periods of diet watching, experimenting, restricting and dropping down under 150 even at 5'10"-ish. Yet I also know guys who are heavier even yet are the same height with zero bloat on their stomachs despite no dieting or even much exercise either. Same with those guys who complain of "moobs" while at 14% bodyfat while other guys near 20% and do not have them despite being chubbier relative to their size.

it is a hormonal issue, just them not counting calories is not enough maybe they naturally gravitate towards the better foods, plus you dont know their tap water intake, toxins, pharma drug usage, pufa, estrogens, vaccines, xrays, etc
how would serotonin make them bone dry and lean?
isnt the lean look due to usually hormones, positive ones, or starvation

 

[DrJ]

what do you mean by skinny people with big features. like big eyes?
interesting, whats the dosage for charcoal, hows that work? whys it cause stomach reduction mate

Histadelics are said to be tall and lanky, with big ears, big noses, big hands etc. in order to dissipate the excess heat they are always creating.

For me its several grams many times a day. Because activated charcoal will typically lower inflammation in the gut by getting rid of bacteria and endotoxin. The body uses fat to protect itself against inflammation. Look at how even 'in-shape' middle-aged and older people consistently have at least something of a gut, even if they work really hard. It's because your intestine gets leaky and inflamed with age and your body stores fat preferably at the gut to protect itself. You have fat cells everywhere, but the body doesn't sit there and store the fat in your hands or neck or ankles unless there is something else wrong there.

 

[Dr. B]

Histadelics are said to be tall and lanky, with big ears, big noses, big hands etc. in order to dissipate the excess heat they are always creating.

For me its several grams many times a day. Because activated charcoal will typically lower inflammation in the gut by getting rid of bacteria and endotoxin. The body uses fat to protect itself against inflammation. Look at how even 'in-shape' middle-aged and older people consistently have at least something of a gut, even if they work really hard. It's because your intestine gets leaky and inflamed with age and your body stores fat preferably at the gut to protect itself. You have fat cells everywhere, but the body doesn't sit there and store the fat in your hands or neck or ankles unless there is something else wrong there.

thats interesting stuff man.
so you can become a histidelic? how would you eat to be one? eat lots of fermented foods, cheeses, vinegars, whey protein? high histidine intake?
ah man so 500mg of the stuff wouldnt do much?
interesting on fat inflammation, makes sense...
isnt the right way to resolve this, to actually avoid foods causing leaky gut...
in which case what would you say is the ideal diet? do you think all A2 milk, whey protein powder, raw honey, organic orange juice and coconut water, with some liver and organ capsules, and dried fruits like mango and pineapple and figs, would work?

 

[Peater]

@ScurveDream this has been a struggle for me for as long as i have been aware of health and fitness. Even at my fittest where i could run half marathons, deadlift 175kg @ 80kg bodyweight etc i never looked lean and always tended towards looking skinnyfat despite not having touched soy or grains in years. I did have a PUFA heavy vegan stage but that was over 10 years ago now.

 

[DrJ]

thats interesting stuff man.
so you can become a histidelic? how would you eat to be one? eat lots of fermented foods, cheeses, vinegars, whey protein? high histidine intake?
ah man so 500mg of the stuff wouldnt do much?
interesting on fat inflammation, makes sense...
isnt the right way to resolve this, to actually avoid foods causing leaky gut...
in which case what would you say is the ideal diet? do you think all A2 milk, whey protein powder, raw honey, organic orange juice and coconut water, with some liver and organ capsules, and dried fruits like mango and pineapple and figs, would work?

Not sure anyone has studied 'becoming a histidelic' but indeed logically one would think to have a high histidine intake and low methionine intake. I personally supplement histidine for one week in a month, but you have to be careful because it chelates zinc. I would avoid whey protein. Casein might be better in that regard if you have to do a protein powder.

Agreed resolving might involve avoiding foods causing leaky gut. It's interesting that starch - which tends to increase weight gain (and some starches more than others IMO) - is also something that typically promotes leaky gut. Is it the calories or is it the leaky gut effect? Not sure. I personally do okay with small amounts of white rice and potatoes cooked in certain ways.

Not sure about ideal diet, but that's a bit what Peat is always on about and gives interesting perspectives on. I think most important is to get all nutrients while avoiding a bad gut / endotoxin and avoiding PUFA. Like I said, I don't think whey powder is good at all. And I think dried fruits might not be so good as they tend to support fungal things. Better to get the fresh :)

 

[Dr. B]

Not sure anyone has studied 'becoming a histidelic' but indeed logically one would think to have a high histidine intake and low methionine intake. I personally supplement histidine for one week in a month, but you have to be careful because it chelates zinc. I would avoid whey protein. Casein might be better in that regard if you have to do a protein powder.

Agreed resolving might involve avoiding foods causing leaky gut. It's interesting that starch - which tends to increase weight gain (and some starches more than others IMO) - is also something that typically promotes leaky gut. Is it the calories or is it the leaky gut effect? Not sure. I personally do okay with small amounts of white rice and potatoes cooked in certain ways.

Not sure about ideal diet, but that's a bit what Peat is always on about and gives interesting perspectives on. I think most important is to get all nutrients while avoiding a bad gut / endotoxin and avoiding PUFA. Like I said, I don't think whey powder is good at all. And I think dried fruits might not be so good as they tend to support fungal things. Better to get the fresh :)

but calcium is supposedly anti histamine mate. why would you avoid whey and favor casein. i think histamine foods would include the whey or casein powders, cheeses, any fermented foods, and any aged foods so i imagine things like freeze dried liver, beef jerky, whey protein etc may have lots of histamine?

why do you say whey and dried fruits are not good? what if its organic grass fed whey... how can we get good protein in, 200grams a day. milk can contribute some, liver some but moreis needed

 

[OccamzRazer]

Histadelics are said to be tall and lanky, with big ears, big noses, big hands etc. in order to dissipate the excess heat they are always creating.

Yeah this histadelic thing is pretty interesting. I think I might be one of them, researching the forum now...

 

[Zigzag]

@Mr.Bollox people here don't like whey because of tryptophan. Just like chicken and turkey. I'm having issues with it either. It's hard do hit my 120-140g of protein that doesn't come from whey or lean white meats, while not going too high on calories.

 

[OccamzRazer]

I have no idea how this whole thing works, other than the fairly common knowledge that hormones like leptin and grehlin are involved in giving each person a "set point" where their body likes to stay.

Some people's set points are higher...some are lower.

I'm one of those people on the low side. I've been quite thin my whole life. As a teen I was 5'10 and 125 pounds. Even when eating very poorly I always had visible abs and other markers of leanness.

Today I'm 6' and 170-175 pounds. If anything I'm even leaner now! It's quite easy to stay at 6-8% bodyfat. I eat around 4000 calories a day, if not a little more. I tried to stay at 180 pounds, eating just over 5,000 calories a day, and couldn't sustain it. Eating above maintenance doesn't lead to much weight gain, just overheating and fidgeting.

Part of this is clearly genetic - or at least something that can be inherited. My Dad is naturally lean just like I am. So are his brothers.

The question for me is this: how much can set points be adjusted? If one is in otherwise good health, should they even make an attempt to adjust?

@ScurveDream I think it might be best for a person to just accept their body and its natural level of leanness, whether said level is more or less than what they wanted....

 

[ursidae]

Metabolic syndrome hits everyone differently. Most obese people have solid hairlines and good clear skin.
I’m one of those skinny low body fat people and the worst part is everything that contains substantial nutrition/calories that normalises my weight, exacerbates my insulin resistance (acne). So I’m choosing between being malnourished and having horrible skin

 

[DrJ]

but calcium is supposedly anti histamine mate. why would you avoid whey and favor casein. i think histamine foods would include the whey or casein powders, cheeses, any fermented foods, and any aged foods so i imagine things like freeze dried liver, beef jerky, whey protein etc may have lots of histamine?

why do you say whey and dried fruits are not good? what if its organic grass fed whey... how can we get good protein in, 200grams a day. milk can contribute some, liver some but moreis needed

Calcium might inhibit the *release* of histamine but I don't know that it prevents its formation. Also I think it's better to have high histadine than high histamine and histadine != histamine. Notably histidine tends to inhibit histamine. You don't really want the highly processed protein powders for the reason that the aminos typically get damaged in the processing process + contaminants. Better to have milk, cheese, shellfish or beef.

When they analyze dry fruits they find they often have fungus residues on them. Do you want fungus in your gut? Doesn't really matter if the whey is organic and grass fed because it still will get damaged in the protein powder creation process. 200g seems extremely high even for someone trying to build muscle, but sure if that's what you're going for. I typically hit 130-150g/day of which at least half is from low-fat milk and this seems to be no problem.

 

[Dr. B]

Metabolic syndrome hits everyone differently. Most obese people have solid hairlines and good clear skin.
I’m one of those skinny low body fat people and the worst part is everything that contains substantial nutrition/calories that normalises my weight, exacerbates my insulin resistance (acne). So I’m choosing between being malnourished and having horrible skin

insulin resistance causes acne? whats the mechanism? also cant it be resolved with high protein intake, lessening pufa/starch, increasing fructose, etc... maybe milk/casein protein

@Mr.Bollox people here don't like whey because of tryptophan. Just like chicken and turkey. I'm having issues with it either. It's hard do hit my 120-140g of protein that doesn't come from whey or lean white meats, while not going too high on calories.

dont all the ruminant meats like beef, goat lamb etc also have tryptophan. milk and cheese too?
the meats have a bunch of issues, whey seems like the safest option to get protein in besides milk itself. what brand/type of whey do you use? the sucralose and gums and lecithin are dangerous...
there's organic grass fed whey on amazon, its $100 for 5 pounds basically double price of non organic whey

 

[Zigzag]

@Mr.Bollox Apparently isolated whey protein and chicken breasts are the main offenders, much bigger than the rest. When it comes to the powder I stopped using it recently, because of sucralose. This ***t wrecks my gut and causes massive brain fog and headaches. For now it's skyr (0% fat) if we're talking dairy.

 

[Dr. B]

Calcium might inhibit the *release* of histamine but I don't know that it prevents its formation. Also I think it's better to have high histadine than high histamine and histadine != histamine. Notably histidine tends to inhibit histamine. You don't really want the highly processed protein powders for the reason that the aminos typically get damaged in the processing process + contaminants. Better to have milk, cheese, shellfish or beef.

When they analyze dry fruits they find they often have fungus residues on them. Do you want fungus in your gut? Doesn't really matter if the whey is organic and grass fed because it still will get damaged in the protein powder creation process. 200g seems extremely high even for someone trying to build muscle, but sure if that's what you're going for. I typically hit 130-150g/day of which at least half is from low-fat milk and this seems to be no problem.

so you mean high histadine as in histadine amino acid intake? you want to have lots of histidine intake but prevent its formation into histamine? how do we do this? how does histidine inhibit histamine, isn't histidine an actual precursor for it?
doesn't cooked beef, pasteurized milk, and all cheeses have the issues as whey? especially cheese, that's also an aged fermented food. wouldn't wheys aminos being damaged or aged in the process cause a larger histidine or histamine response.

what is the damage from protein process, isn't whey simply the part that is separated from cheese/casein/fat. are you saying its the freeze drying or dehydration process of turning liquid whey to powder that causes the trouble. if thats the case, wouldn't milk powder, and freeze dried liver capsule supplements also have significant issues.
low fat milk will have added vitamins, which means added propylene glycol and polysorbate 80. i am only sticking to whole, organic, 100% grass fed, 100% A2 milk due to that issue.

 

[PaRa]

Calcium might inhibit the *release* of histamine but I don't know that it prevents its formation. Also I think it's better to have high histadine than high histamine and histadine != histamine. Notably histidine tends to inhibit histamine. You don't really want the highly processed protein powders for the reason that the aminos typically get damaged in the processing process + contaminants. Better to have milk, cheese, shellfish or beef.

When they analyze dry fruits they find they often have fungus residues on them. Do you want fungus in your gut? Doesn't really matter if the whey is organic and grass fed because it still will get damaged in the protein powder creation process. 200g seems extremely high even for someone trying to build muscle, but sure if that's what you're going for. I typically hit 130-150g/day of which at least half is from low-fat milk and this seems to be no problem.

all wrong


Eating calcium releases histamine from your body stores so at first it’s raising your blood histamine but in the end it will lowers and lowers your histamine stores hence anti histamine
moreover, dairies are high methionine but low histidine and low glycine so it’s a non favorable protein for histamine building (methionine desactivates histamine, glycine tanks methionine/methyl groups and histidine is needed to form histamine)

histidine doesn’t inhibits histamine, your body makes histamine from histidine + co factors

 

[Dr. B]

all wrong


Eating calcium releases histamine from your body stores so at first it’s raising your blood histamine but in the end it will lowers and lowers your histamine stores hence anti histamine
moreover, dairies are high methionine but low histidine and low glycine so it’s a non favorable protein for histamine building (methionine desactivates histamine, glycine tanks methionine/methyl groups and histidine is needed to form histamine)

histidine doesn’t inhibits histamine, your body makes histamine from histidine + co factors

regarding glycine,
i think Chris Masterjohn said that niacin always depletes methyl groups, hence it has that danger and he recommends taking trimethylglycine alongside niacin/niacinamide in a 1:1 ratio at least
and i think he said glycine only depletes methyl groups if you have excess methyl groups
i may be quoting wrong, but that's what i remember reading/seeing in his video on niacin and methyl groups
but basically using glycine according to that was safe, whereas niacin supplementation always depletes methyl groups
i think it also meant if you're taking in too many methyl groups/methionine, you could be depleting glycine. since glycine is used to help excrete the excess methyl groups.

 

[DrJ]

Eating calcium releases histamine from your body stores so at first it’s raising your blood histamine but in the end it will lowers and lowers your histamine stores hence anti histamine

Not really true unless the calcium is getting into the cell (caused by low metabolism/CO2 production if you read Ray's work), but that is not really caused by the calcium itself or calcium intake. Generally, intracellular calcium has a stabilizing effect on the mast cells and this article covers both cases:

Regulatory role of calcium on histamine secretion - PubMed

Calcium seems to have two opposing effects on histamine secretion from mast cells. A rise in the cytosol calcium concentration initiates the chain of reactions leading to histamine secretion. On the other hand, calcium appears to have a regulatory role, limiting the secretion. Removal of cell...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

moreover, dairies are high methionine but low histidine and low glycine so it’s a non favorable protein for histamine building (methionine desactivates histamine, glycine tanks methionine/methyl groups and histidine is needed to form histamine)

Not sure what you mean by 'dairies' but once again you don't really have it right and it is very easy to check this. Milk has (per 100g) 102mg histidine and 88mg methionine. Parmesan (per 100g) has 142mg histidine and 98mg methionine and you will find similar favorable ratios for hard cheeses. It is easy to find high histidine/methionine ratio cheeses so personally dairy products are a go-to for me in trying to keep a high histidine to methionine ratio.

histidine doesn’t inhibits histamine, your body makes histamine from histidine + co factors

Histidine does indeed inhibit histamine formation by decreasing histidine decarboxylase (which converts histidine into histamine, one of these 'co factors' you speak of). It appears to be a self-regulating process. You can start with the review article here:

Histidine in Health and Disease: Metabolism, Physiological Importance, and Use as a Supplement

L-histidine (HIS) is an essential amino acid with unique roles in proton buffering, metal ion chelation, scavenging of reactive oxygen and nitrogen species, erythropoiesis, and the histaminergic system. Several HIS-rich proteins (e.g., haemoproteins, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

and then go to the section "Effects of Dietary HIS on Histamine Levels" to follow the different studies showing that once you've created enough histamine from histidine that histidine begins decrease histamine decarboxylase like in this rat study:

Influence of dietary histidine on tissue histamine concentration, histidine decarboxylase and histamine methyltransferase activity in the rat - PubMed

Three-week-old male rats were fed for two weeks diets supplying inadequate, adequate, or excess amounts of histidine. After the 2-week feeding of the experimental diets, the rats were killed. Brain, gastrocnemius muscle, kidney and stomach were removed and analyzed for histamine and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

so you mean high histadine as in histadine amino acid intake? you want to have lots of histidine intake but prevent its formation into histamine? how do we do this? how does histidine inhibit histamine, isn't histidine an actual precursor for it?

Yes high histadine intake. You don't want to prevent it's *formation* into histamine. You simply want to prevent the *release* of histamine from the mast cells. It's the release - not the formation - that causes problems for people. Having full histamine in the mast cells means your body is prepared for a 'real crisis' if needed and that it is not releasing histamine for 'false crises' as would be the case with someone with low metabolism. Histamine has an important role in survival, but you don't want the the release being triggered all the time for 'low threat' reasons. Having lots of histidine (essentially to methionine) has lots of benefits including for metabolic disease and fat storage and I encourage you to read the review article I posted just a few lines above for Para.

doesn't cooked beef, pasteurized milk, and all cheeses have the issues as whey? especially cheese, that's also an aged fermented food. wouldn't wheys aminos being damaged or aged in the process cause a larger histidine or histamine response.

what is the damage from protein process, isn't whey simply the part that is separated from cheese/casein/fat. are you saying its the freeze drying or dehydration process of turning liquid whey to powder that causes the trouble. if thats the case, wouldn't milk powder, and freeze dried liver capsule supplements also have significant issues.
low fat milk will have added vitamins, which means added propylene glycol and polysorbate 80. i am only sticking to whole, organic, 100% grass fed, 100% A2 milk due to that issue.

No why would they? They are not processed like protein powder. Check out the contaminants and toxins in protein powders in section "Toxins and Contaminants":

Protein Powders May Be Doing More Harm than Good

Protein powders often contain hidden ingredients and dangerous contaminants. Here's what you need to know about the risks.

www.center4research.org

I personally wouldn't consume milk powder or freeze dried liver/organ capsules either. Sounds like the milk in your area might be different. I avoid the vitamin added milks and haven't seen polysorbate or propylene glycol listed on the ingredients. Hope they're not hiding it!

 

[Dr. B]

Not really true unless the calcium is getting into the cell (caused by low metabolism/CO2 production if you read Ray's work), but that is not really caused by the calcium itself or calcium intake. Generally, intracellular calcium has a stabilizing effect on the mast cells and this article covers both cases:

Regulatory role of calcium on histamine secretion - PubMed

Calcium seems to have two opposing effects on histamine secretion from mast cells. A rise in the cytosol calcium concentration initiates the chain of reactions leading to histamine secretion. On the other hand, calcium appears to have a regulatory role, limiting the secretion. Removal of cell...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Not sure what you mean by 'dairies' but once again you don't really have it right and it is very easy to check this. Milk has (per 100g) 102mg histidine and 88mg methionine. Parmesan (per 100g) has 142mg histidine and 98mg methionine and you will find similar favorable ratios for hard cheeses. It is easy to find high histidine/methionine ratio cheeses so personally dairy products are a go-to for me in trying to keep a high histidine to methionine ratio.


Histidine does indeed inhibit histamine formation by decreasing histidine decarboxylase (which converts histidine into histamine, one of these 'co factors' you speak of). It appears to be a self-regulating process. You can start with the review article here:

Histidine in Health and Disease: Metabolism, Physiological Importance, and Use as a Supplement

L-histidine (HIS) is an essential amino acid with unique roles in proton buffering, metal ion chelation, scavenging of reactive oxygen and nitrogen species, erythropoiesis, and the histaminergic system. Several HIS-rich proteins (e.g., haemoproteins, ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

and then go to the section "Effects of Dietary HIS on Histamine Levels" to follow the different studies showing that once you've created enough histamine from histidine that histidine begins decrease histamine decarboxylase like in this rat study:

Influence of dietary histidine on tissue histamine concentration, histidine decarboxylase and histamine methyltransferase activity in the rat - PubMed

Three-week-old male rats were fed for two weeks diets supplying inadequate, adequate, or excess amounts of histidine. After the 2-week feeding of the experimental diets, the rats were killed. Brain, gastrocnemius muscle, kidney and stomach were removed and analyzed for histamine and...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yes high histadine intake. You don't want to prevent it's *formation* into histamine. You simply want to prevent the *release* of histamine from the mast cells. It's the release - not the formation - that causes problems for people. Having full histamine in the mast cells means your body is prepared for a 'real crisis' if needed and that it is not releasing histamine for 'false crises' as would be the case with someone with low metabolism. Histamine has an important role in survival, but you don't want the the release being triggered all the time for 'low threat' reasons. Having lots of histidine (essentially to methionine) has lots of benefits including for metabolic disease and fat storage and I encourage you to read the review article I posted just a few lines above for Para.


No why would they? They are not processed like protein powder. Check out the contaminants and toxins in protein powders in section "Toxins and Contaminants":

Protein Powders May Be Doing More Harm than Good

Protein powders often contain hidden ingredients and dangerous contaminants. Here's what you need to know about the risks.

www.center4research.org

I personally wouldn't consume milk powder or freeze dried liver/organ capsules either. Sounds like the milk in your area might be different. I avoid the vitamin added milks and haven't seen polysorbate or propylene glycol listed on the ingredients. Hope they're not hiding it!

isnt intracellular calcium bad? or its good? i thought you want calcium/sodium out of the cell, and magnesium and something else in it.

so histidine intake does reduce formation of histamine?

does calcium have anti histamine effects or pro histamine?

what do you mean by the processing, is there something specific?
doesnt cooking milk or meat oxidize/degrade its proteins.
so pasteurizing milk, vs freeze drying milk, arent they the same thing as far as oxidation.
the contaminants issue is likely cheap quality plus the vast majority of protein powders have all kinds of things added like sucralose, cocoa powder, flavors, gums, other sweeteners, salts, sugar, etc. there's some which are pure whey protein concentrate, basically like milk powder but just the whey portion. many farms sell whey, it's just the liquid form of whey which i imagine is freeze dried to turn it into whey powder.

which state/country are you in? how are you getting low fat milks without added vitamins? if the milk is low fat it has to have vitamins added, and if it has vitamins in the ingredients list it means it also has propylene glycol and polysorbate 80 its just not listed. vitamin added milks, even if whole milk, cause bloating and some facial swelling due to the allergenicity of propylene glycol and polysorbate 80 mate!

regarding whey, the risk there seems to be the same massive risk with cheese.
most cheeses dont use animal rennet they use vegetable rennet/enzymes these days which have severe allergenicity issues. i think many whey proteins also use enzymes to separate the whey from the other parts of the milk and if those enzymes are present in whey, could cause serious issues.!