Lean Mass Increased 3x As Much With PUFA Versus SFA

[baccheion]

Thoughts on this study? Was it discussed elsewhere?

Overfeeding Polyunsaturated and Saturated Fat Causes Distinct Effects on Liver and Visceral Fat Accumulation in Humans

With higher omega-6, there was an equal gain of fat and muscle. With higher saturated fat, only 20% was lean mass.

 

[lampofred]

Will read the full study later but right now the main reason that comes to mind is this: SFA promotes glucose use whereas PUFA switches you over to fat oxidation, so high PUFA can keep you leaner (in an unhealthy way by overstimulating adrenals) and SFA can cause a more rapid loss of lean mass (by raising cortisol) if glucose is undersupplied.

 

[baccheion]

Will read the full study later but right now the main reason that comes to mind is this: SFA promotes glucose use whereas PUFA switches you over to fat oxidation, so high PUFA can keep you leaner (in an unhealthy way by overstimulating adrenals) and SFA can cause a more rapid loss of lean mass (by raising cortisol) if glucose is undersupplied.

They were in a 250 calorie surplus, gaining ~3.5 lbs after 7 weeks.

 

[bk_]

I’ve read this and various other studies referenced in this study. It seems that PUFA really does support lean mass growth because they are getting oxidized whereas the SFA are getting stored. What’s even more significant is if I understand these results the linoleic acid increases metabolism in the liver and has a decoupling effect for increased thermogenesis.

I’ve posted this in another topic discussing the same study:

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It studied low-fat (LF), high-fat lard (HF-L), and high-fat safflower (HF-S) oil diets during weeks of re-feeding (after calorie restriction). The rats on the lard diet gained the most fat, the safflower oil was in the middle, and the high carb-diet the least (also with the least PUFA storage). Shocking right?

What’s interesting is the affect on the mitochondria, specifically the omega-6 oil causing proton leakage across the mitochondrion of the hepatic (liver) tissue, thus explaining why the omega-6 oils does not cause as much fat gain:

Peat said that in the 1940s coconut oil was found to increase metabolism and weight loss in farm animals and was quickly abandoned as the goal was to increase weight. With regards to palmitic and other FA found in animal fats it seems to cause weight gain and not contribute to overall metabolism. It seems from the referenced experiments in the OP study if your going to have fat in your diet omega 6 is better for metabolism than animal fats...

I’m questioning whether most saturated fats over PUFAs support increased metabolism...

 

[baccheion]

I’ve read this and various other studies referenced in this study. It seems that PUFA really does support lean mass growth because they are getting oxidized whereas the SFA are getting stored. What’s even more significant is if I understand these results the linoleic acid increases metabolism in the liver and has a decoupling effect for increased thermogenesis.

I’ve posted this in another topic discussing the same study:

Error - Cookies Turned Off

It studied low-fat (LF), high-fat lard (HF-L), and high-fat safflower (HF-S) oil diets during weeks of re-feeding (after calorie restriction). The rats on the lard diet gained the most fat, the safflower oil was in the middle, and the high carb-diet the least (also with the least PUFA storage). Shocking right?

What’s interesting is the affect on the mitochondria, specifically the omega-6 oil causing proton leakage across the mitochondrion of the hepatic (liver) tissue, thus explaining why the omega-6 oils does not cause as much fat gain:

View attachment 15992

Peat said that in the 1940s coconut oil was found to increase metabolism and weight loss in farm animals and was quickly abandoned as the goal was to increase weight. With regards to palmitic and other FA found in animal fats it seems to cause weight gain and not contribute to overall metabolism. It seems from the referenced experiments in the OP study if your going to have fat in your diet omega 6 is better for metabolism than animal fats...

I’m questioning whether most saturated fats over PUFAs support increased metabolism...

Does that explain the OP study results? If uncoupling increased, then they would've gained less weight overall. Both groups gained about the same amount of weight, with the higher saturated fat group gained 80% (vs. 50%) as fat.

 

[bk_]

Does that explain the OP study results? If uncoupling increased, then they would've gained less weight overall. Both groups gained about the same amount of weight, with the higher saturated fat group gained 80% (vs. 50%) as fat.

I’m not quite sure as my understanding is weak. My guess is that thermogenesis allows cells to function better for anabolic growth thus explaining why the high PUFA diet allows better growth.

 

[bk_]

This weekend I will post a summary of my analysis from dozens of experiments (I’m busy), at the moment the picture that appears to me is this:
- Excess calories with SFA will induce steatosis in the liver
- PUFAs are more readily oxidized by the liver and induce thermogenesis
- PUFAs provide precursors for synthesis of inflammatory compounds
- PUFAs oxidation generates much more free radicals than SFA and saccharides
- SFA can mitigate oxidative stress from PUFAs
- High carb/low fat diet is preferential as it increases metabolism and produces less free radicals when oxidizing for energy by standard metabolic pathways

The overall picture I’m seeing is that SFA can be beneficial for dealing with inflammation induced by PUFA but they do not directly support metabolism, the effect is indirect through anti-microbial affects and lowering inflammation. Long-term use in high concentrations cause weight gain and fatty-liver disease so it should be used sparingly for calories in the diet. The ideal diet would have very limited PUFA and a little bit of SFA at a low % of total calories, the remainder of calories coming from carbs and a moderate amount of protein for healthy liver metabolism.

 

[tankasnowgod]

It seems from the referenced experiments in the OP study if your going to have fat in your diet omega 6 is better for metabolism than animal fats...

And it's totally worked out in the real world, too. After all, we're all super lean PUFA burning beasts, and the replacement of tallow and lard with hydrogenated oils, and then the replacement of hydrogenated oils with higher PUFA unhydrogenated oils, certainly didn't coincide with the obesity epidemic. Nope, no issues there! Clearly, this poorly controlled 7 week study explains how we got so lean over the past 40 years.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thoughts on this study? Was it discussed elsewhere?

Overfeeding Polyunsaturated and Saturated Fat Causes Distinct Effects on Liver and Visceral Fat Accumulation in Humans

With higher omega-6, there was an equal gain of fat and muscle. With higher saturated fat, only 20% was lean mass.

Literally another active on the forum about this at the same time- How/why Does Eating Muffins Made With SFA Cause Visceral Fat Gain, But Not With PUFA?

 

[baccheion]

This weekend I will post a summary of my analysis from dozens of experiments (I’m busy), at the moment the picture that appears to me is this:
- Excess calories with SFA will induce steatosis in the liver
- PUFAs are more readily oxidized by the liver and induce thermogenesis
- PUFAs provide precursors for synthesis of inflammatory compounds
- PUFAs oxidation generates much more free radicals than SFA and saccharides
- SFA can mitigate oxidative stress from PUFAs
- High carb/low fat diet is preferential as it increases metabolism and produces less free radicals when oxidizing for energy by standard metabolic pathways

The overall picture I’m seeing is that SFA can be beneficial for dealing with inflammation induced by PUFA but they do not directly support metabolism, the effect is indirect through anti-microbial affects and lowering inflammation. Long-term use in high concentrations cause weight gain and fatty-liver disease so it should be used sparingly for calories in the diet. The ideal diet would have very limited PUFA and a little bit of SFA at a low % of total calories, the remainder of calories coming from carbs and a moderate amount of protein for healthy liver metabolism.

What percent as calories from fat, especially for APOE 3/4?

Literally another active on the forum about this at the same time- How/why Does Eating Muffins Made With SFA Cause Visceral Fat Gain, But Not With PUFA?

I saw that popup after creating this thread.

 

[bk_]

And it's totally worked out in the real world, too. After all, we're all super lean PUFA burning beasts, and the replacement of tallow and lard with hydrogenated oils, and then the replacement of hydrogenated oils with higher PUFA unhydrogenated oils, certainly didn't coincide with the obesity epidemic. Nope, no issues there! Clearly, this poorly controlled 7 week study explains how we got so lean over the past 40 years.

These controlled animal experiments I’ve gone through are all short-term but they clearly show an increase in fat storage on SFA heavy diets especially in the liver. I haven’t come across long term experiments though I would imagine at some point oxidative damage from PUFA will take a toll.

What is important to understand is that there are also consequences to taking in a lot of calories from SFA. It doesn’t seem like a diet high in SFA-based calories is a healthy alternative due to liver steatosis and weight gain.

In the animal experiment I posted the most ideal diet was the high glucose diet as the mice were leaner (12% body fat vs 17% for lard group), had the highest average metabolism (1200kj expenditure vs 800kj for the lard group), highest protein content, and their fat composition was even more saturated than on the lard diet (albeit lard can be unsaturated). All animals had the same caloric intake and diets which only varied by the addition of glucose, lard, or safflower oil as additional calories. Vitamin E in the PUFA may play a role in these results though I’m not entirely sure. Remember that Ray Peat also advocates a low fat diet...

I’ve scanned through 2 dozen experiments that had similar results, I will post an analysis later I’m busy for the time being. The important thing is to look at the whole picture.

 

[bistecca]

consider the composition of lean mass. If i have edema or low grade inflammation, it's lean mass. It may just be water and coagulated dysfunctional proteins and immune waste and ROS, but it still counts as lean mass.

 

[CLASH]

I'm pretty sure PUFA increases water retention in the tissues due to the hydrophilic nature of their structure, meanwhile saturated fat exclude water. Thus the PUFA essentially waters log the cell, this can account for the increase in lean mass.

Looking at high saturated fat intake in rats/ mice seems pointless in my opinion, these animals digestive tracts are set up for fermentation in the cecum not absorption of fats and sugars in the small intestine, especially to the extent that humans are. This is essentially akin, in my opinion to feeding a cow an all steak diet and saying "see steak makes you sick".

Furthermore, historically these studies have no context. Unsaturated fats didnt become a component of the diet until this century and they directly correspond to the massive rise in disease that we are seeing, especially heart disease, diabetes, obesity, metabolic syndrome, NASH etc.

Lastly, in my real life experience plus quite a few people I have helped these PUFA studies are contradictory. When I switch people to diets with saturated fat sources and high amounts of sugar from fruit (80-100g of mostly saturated fat + 200-400g of carbs from mostly simple sugars from fruit) they lose weight rapidly while eating more and thier digestion improves. I personally am sitting at 10% bodyfat on 3000-3500kcal per day, with 100-140g of fat from a combination of beef tallow and butter (sometimes coconut oil; banana chips are my weakness) and only 6-7g of total PUFA a day, in conjunction with 300-400g of carbs almost entirely from simple sugars. Where is all my visceral fat (probably between my ears lol)?

 

[bistecca]

I'm pretty sure PUFA increases water retention in the tissues due to the hydrophilic nature of their structure, meanwhile saturated fat exclude water. Thus the PUFA essentially waters log the cell, this can account for the increase in lean mass.

This is what i suspect is at play here. Ray has mentioned that corn and soybean oil and the crops themselves have a potent effect on livestock of making them gain weight fast. Starch and PUFA together do some magic. But there has been a trend, if you look at meat, towards a watery-er product.. a product that contains more water and less other stuff. This is the reason meat doesn't look like it used to. Beef is lighter in color and watery. Pork looks like a white meat. Chicken is now white throughout.. We have bred the mitochondrial density out of their tissues and adapted the animals to a chronic state of low grade inflammation. When I worked in a butchery, we processed all kinds of different animals including beef fed on grains and those fed only on grass. We hung the beef carcasses to dry for a month. The ones that had been fed grains would spoil more from mold growth on the exterior, they would need to have more meat trimmed off and wasted because of this(lots of fat wasted too), and they would lose more water weight while hanging.

 

[rei]

If you don't see how a study claiming lard to be saturated fat is propaganda all the way starting from the premise, i cannot help you. Last time i saw something as fraudulent was a similar study posted here that used moldy (blue) cheese as the source of saturated fat. You just can't make this ***t up, it is so absurd and unbelievable it must come from the medical industry.

 

[CLASH]

This is what i suspect is at play here. Ray has mentioned that corn and soybean oil and the crops themselves have a potent effect on livestock of making them gain weight fast. Starch and PUFA together do some magic. But there has been a trend, if you look at meat, towards a watery-er product.. a product that contains more water and less other stuff. This is the reason meat doesn't look like it used to. Beef is lighter in color and watery. Pork looks like a white meat. Chicken is now white throughout.. We have bred the mitochondrial density out of their tissues and adapted the animals to a chronic state of low grade inflammation. When I worked in a butchery, we processed all kinds of different animals including beef fed on grains and those fed only on grass. We hung the beef carcasses to dry for a month. The ones that had been fed grains would spoil more from mold growth on the exterior, they would need to have more meat trimmed off and wasted because of this(lots of fat wasted too), and they would lose more water weight while hanging.

Could the watery-ness be due to the injection of sodium phosphates and other sodium compounds in meats to increase thier weight? I know big agra likes to do sh*t like that to the food to fetch a higher price. They do it in low quality seafood as well.

 

[bistecca]

I'm sure in some instances that plays a role.. but what I saw was in a small scale custom processor that does not inject with anything and the changes were still noticeable.

 

[CLASH]

I'm sure in some instances that plays a role.. but what I saw was in a small scale custom processor that does not inject with anything and the changes were still noticeable.

Thats interesting then. I guess thats in line with whats going on in obesity then as well to some extent.

Most cows from my understanding are fed grass most of thier lives and then finished on grains to fatten them up. From what I've read the grain causes huge amounts of inflammation in thier GI tract from bacterial overgrowth in the rumen, producing bloat and acidosis. If its not treated with antibiotics they can easily die. The systemic inflammation from the bacterial products that ensues must move the tissues to a state where thier energy production is failing leading to a loss of the gel state and an uptake of water; thus increasing the animals weight.

Considering that obesity is a disease of inflammation, and the connections involving endotoxin and serotonin that have been discussed on this forum, I think we can get a nice picture of whats causing obesity both in cattle and in humans. I think the fat may develop as a way to store the toxins and section off the inflammation away from the vital structures; so in essence its a protective mechanism.

Calories in calories out only comes into play so far as less calories consumed would be a metric for less grain and other BS foods to be consumed, thus less fodder for fermentation meaning less bacterial products and thus less inflammation. So essentially starving is better than being poisoned by bacteria lol.

 

[baccheion]

I'm pretty sure PUFA increases water retention in the tissues due to the hydrophilic nature of their structure, meanwhile saturated fat exclude water. Thus the PUFA essentially waters log the cell, this can account for the increase in lean mass.

Looking at high saturated fat intake in rats/ mice seems pointless in my opinion, these animals digestive tracts are set up for fermentation in the cecum not absorption of fats and sugars in the small intestine, especially to the extent that humans are. This is essentially akin, in my opinion to feeding a cow an all steak diet and saying "see steak makes you sick".

Furthermore, historically these studies have no context. Unsaturated fats didnt become a component of the diet until this century and they directly correspond to the massive rise in disease that we are seeing, especially heart disease, diabetes, obesity, metabolic syndrome, NASH etc.

Lastly, in my real life experience plus quite a few people I have helped these PUFA studies are contradictory. When I switch people to diets with saturated fat sources and high amounts of sugar from fruit (80-100g of mostly saturated fat + 200-400g of carbs from mostly simple sugars from fruit) they lose weight rapidly while eating more and thier digestion improves. I personally am sitting at 10% bodyfat on 3000-3500kcal per day, with 100-140g of fat from a combination of beef tallow and butter (sometimes coconut oil; banana chips are my weakness) and only 6-7g of total PUFA a day, in conjunction with 300-400g of carbs almost entirely from simple sugars. Where is all my visceral fat (probably between my ears lol)?

But both groups gained the same amount of weight. A weight inline with what was expected based on the surplus.

What if someone consumed that much saturated fat while being APOE 4/3?

What did they eat while losing weight? Milk, butter, and orange juice? How much fiber?

 

[schultz]

consider the composition of lean mass. If i have edema or low grade inflammation, it's lean mass. It may just be water and coagulated dysfunctional proteins and immune waste and ROS, but it still counts as lean mass.

I'm pretty sure PUFA increases water retention in the tissues due to the hydrophilic nature of their structure, meanwhile saturated fat exclude water. Thus the PUFA essentially waters log the cell, this can account for the increase in lean mass.

This is basically what I was thinking when I read the study.

How do we differentiate between an actual increase in myofibrillar muscle hypertrophy versus sarcoplasmic hypertrophy versus a general increase in whole body water/edema?

The fatty liver is another thing. It is pretty clear (as far as I can tell) that the saturated group developed a fatty liver. The question is, is this a bad thing or a good thing in the context of this study? We know that saturated fat can be protective for the liver (against alcohol for example). I imagine there would be a fair bit of endotoxin finding its way into the liver on an overfeeding diet such as this, especially since the overfeeding involves roughly 750 calories worth of muffins.