Lapodin - Liquid Emodin/β-lapachone Mix

[brightside]

Did you check the sections on dosages? The dosages used were massive and would probably produce oxidative stress. See below.
"...Twelve rats were randomly assigned to either a control group (6 rats) or an emodin group (6 rats). Rats in the emodin group were orally administrated with emodin (150 mg/kg daily"

The HED of the above rat dose is about 21.5mg/kg, which means a person weighing 100kg would have to take more than 2g emodin daily to replicate the study design!! At such doses, any quinone is likely to cause damage, even something as "benign" as CoQ10. Another one of the studies you posted even states that the toxicity is dependent on dose.
"...Although emodin in low dose improve hepatic fibrosis4 50 , some studies have reported contradictory findings showing that emodin in high dose is hepatotoxic to normal rats.5 "

Btw, that study with the quote on dose-dependent effects of emodin used even more absurdly high doses of emodin.
"...Forty-eight male Sprague-Dawley (SD) rats (Vital River Laboratories, Beijing, China), 9 weeks of 97 age, were administered high-dose of emodin (1500 mg/kg daily, 100 times the clinical equivalent 98 of rhubarb), medium-dose of emodin (500 mg/kg daily, 33 times the clinical equivalent of 99 rhubarb), low-dose of emodin (150 mg/kg daily"

So, even if somebody were to somehow accidentally ingest the entire Lapodin bottle they won't get anywhere close to even the "low" doses (150mg/kg in rats) those studies used.
@chompie

Damn, you beat me by 8 minutes haha

 

[Candeias]

Hmm, lets see..

Dose used: 150mg/kg

---

Dose used: (three groups)
- 150mg/kg
- 500mg/kg
- 1500mg/kg

---

Dose used: Couldn't find a full text

---

Dose used: Varied, but over 150mg/kg. They also used other agents to manipulate various enzymes.

---

If I did the math right, a dose of 150mg/kg is about 24mg/kg HED, or about 1.5 grams for a person weighing 60kg. In the second study, 150mg/kg was considered the "low dose".. Ahem, anything overdosed is toxic, what excellent findings.

The second study even says this:


I wouldn't worry with a few mg at a time. If you are really worried, take a test and check for liver enzymes after using emodin for a month. Plenty of substances are toxic in high doses, nothing new.

Thank you!

 

[Candeias]

Did you check the sections on dosages? The dosages used were massive and would probably produce oxidative stress. See below.
"...Twelve rats were randomly assigned to either a control group (6 rats) or an emodin group (6 rats). Rats in the emodin group were orally administrated with emodin (150 mg/kg daily"

The HED of the above rat dose is about 21.5mg/kg, which means a person weighing 100kg would have to take more than 2g emodin daily to replicate the study design!! At such doses, any quinone is likely to cause damage, even something as "benign" as CoQ10. Another one of the studies you posted even states that the toxicity is dependent on dose.
"...Although emodin in low dose improve hepatic fibrosis4 50 , some studies have reported contradictory findings showing that emodin in high dose is hepatotoxic to normal rats.5 "

Btw, that study with the quote on dose-dependent effects of emodin used even more absurdly high doses of emodin.
"...Forty-eight male Sprague-Dawley (SD) rats (Vital River Laboratories, Beijing, China), 9 weeks of 97 age, were administered high-dose of emodin (1500 mg/kg daily, 100 times the clinical equivalent 98 of rhubarb), medium-dose of emodin (500 mg/kg daily, 33 times the clinical equivalent of 99 rhubarb), low-dose of emodin (150 mg/kg daily"

So, even if somebody were to somehow accidentally ingest the entire Lapodin bottle they won't get anywhere close to even the "low" doses (150mg/kg in rats) those studies used.
@chompie

Sorry @haidut and thank you!

 

[haidut]

Damn, you beat me by 8 minutes haha

No worries, glad to see others also going through the studies and discovering the reason for the negative effects claimed by those studies
I can't answer all comments myself, so any help on such issues is greatly appreciated.

 

[brightside]

No worries, glad to see others also going through the studies and discovering the reason for the negative effects claimed by those studies
I can't answer all comments myself, so any help on such issues is greatly appreciated.

Hah, first thing I do is check the dosages
Glad to help, and hopefully more in the future

 

[Mauritio]

Interestingly emodin only speeds up peristalsis in mice when glucose is present. So if one wants to decrease transit time having lapodin with a meal might make more sense.

"Emodin increased the content of motilin, while reduced the content of somatostatin in small intestine of mice significantly. Emodin 0.2, 0.4, 0.8, and 1.6 g/L decreased PD when there was glucose. However, emodin had little effect when glucose was free. "

- Effect of emodin on small intestinal peristalsis of mice and relevant mechanism - PubMed

 

[Jam]

Interestingly emodin only speeds up peristalsis in mice when glucose is present. So if one wants to decrease transit time having lapodin with a meal might make more sense.

"Emodin increased the content of motilin, while reduced the content of somatostatin in small intestine of mice significantly. Emodin 0.2, 0.4, 0.8, and 1.6 g/L decreased PD when there was glucose. However, emodin had little effect when glucose was free. "

- Effect of emodin on small intestinal peristalsis of mice and relevant mechanism - PubMed

Interesting. The emodin in cascara is different, it's a glycoside, and does not get converted to emodin proper before reaching the colon.

 

[golder]

Interesting. The emodin in cascara is different, it's a glycoside, and does not get converted to emodin proper before reaching the colon.

So one isn’t likely to get the benefits of emodin if we were to take cascara?

 

[Jam]

So one isn’t likely to get the benefits of emodin if we were to take cascara?

Mostly the former. Also, pure emodin (as in Lapodin) is more absorbable and tends to have more systemic effects. The emodin in Cascara is in glycoside form and has very poor absorption, which allows it to reach the colon mostly intact and thus have a much stronger laxative effect. Which type would work better for intestinal cleansing in the upper tract (e.g. SIBO) remains to be seen.

 

[LizRey86]

would there be any contraindications with dosing my rat with this if she is already taking pregnenalone? I know Haidut said it lowers cortisol.

 

[Zellig Pliskin]

Haidut, can you address the concerns about the potential ani-androgenic effects that lapodin could have?

It's a shame he aired you. The only times I took this, it was noticeably anti-androgenic. Maybe taking pansterone or androsterone at the same time can help.

 

[AinmAnseo]

Thanks! I really enjoy doing this.
I think you are on the right track. Too much of anything that stimulates metabolism beyond what the food/glycogen stores can handle will probably cause a stress reaction. But in lower doses, say 1/2 dose Lapodin, the effects should be more on lowering stress hormones and inflammation. I thin a few drops of Kuinone and 1/2 dose of Lapodin is fine. No need to add CoQ10 as vitamin K can serve as electron carrier instead of CoQ10. Also, the CoQ10 supplements on the market right now may not be quite pure. All of the ones I have tried give me an endotoxin reaction unlike the Thorne's vitamin K, and Kuinone.

Haidut,
Are you saying that taking ubiquinol or CoQ10 is not needed at all, if one is taking enough Vitamin K each day, or Kuinone each day?

 

[cremes]

Haidut,
Are you saying that taking ubiquinol or CoQ10 is not needed at all, if one is taking enough Vitamin K each day, or Kuinone each day?

That's right. If you look at the historical thread for Kuinone you'll see a study that shows Vitamin K can act as an electron carrier. So yes, K can supplant CoQ10 for this purpose.

You're about to ask "how much?" There is no known LD50 for K2 and it is very safe. Japanese medical practitioners use 45mg (milligram) doses for osteoporosis and other purposes without ill effect. Each drop of Kuinone is 2mg. I personally do 10 oral and ~20 topical since there are different mechanisms in place for absorbing it for each method. Good luck.

 

[AinmAnseo]

That's right. If you look at the historical thread for Kuinone you'll see a study that shows Vitamin K can act as an electron carrier. So yes, K can supplant CoQ10 for this purpose.

You're about to ask "how much?" There is no known LD50 for K2 and it is very safe. Japanese medical practitioners use 45mg (milligram) doses for osteoporosis and other purposes without ill effect. Each drop of Kuinone is 2mg. I personally do 10 oral and ~20 topical since there are different mechanisms in place for absorbing it for each method. Good luck.

Thanks.

 

[AinmAnseo]

Could this be taken, maybe 2 drops to start, at night, along with 3 drops of 6 keto (which I normally take at night)?
Or, since these both lower cortisol, is that simply a bad idea?
I have lapodin on order.
I need help with sleep, always waking up at 1 am.
I already take low dose Pansterone, 1 drop Kuinone, 1/2 dose Mitolipin and 1/2 dose Energin during the day, until 2 pm.
Thanks.

 

[cremes]

Could this be taken, maybe 2 drops to start, at night, along with 3 drops of 6 keto (which I normally take at night)?
Or, since these both lower cortisol, is that simply a bad idea?
I have lapodin on order.
I need help with sleep, always waking up at 1 am.
I already take low dose Pansterone, 1 drop Kuinone, 1/2 dose Mitolipin and 1/2 dose Energin during the day, until 2 pm.
Thanks.

I can’t answer the original question but I want to take a crack at the 1am wake up. Due to the recent posting frenzy of @mostlylurking i decided to try some high dose B1. I did this for energy reasons. Imagine my surprise when I stopped waking up at 1am and started sleeping through the night. It took about 5 days for this to kick in and I was up to 2x 500mg per day.

 

[AinmAnseo]

I can’t answer the original question but I want to take a crack at the 1am wake up. Due to the recent posting frenzy of @mostlylurking i decided to try some high dose B1. I did this for energy reasons. Imagine my surprise when I stopped waking up at 1am and started sleeping through the night. It took about 5 days for this to kick in and I was up to 2x 500mg per day.

What kind of B1? Prosultiamine? Benfothiamine? Another kind?
Did you take it in the morning?
Is this on top of taking Energin?

 

[mostlylurking]

I can’t answer the original question but I want to take a crack at the 1am wake up. Due to the recent posting frenzy of @mostlylurking i decided to try some high dose B1. I did this for energy reasons. Imagine my surprise when I stopped waking up at 1am and started sleeping through the night. It took about 5 days for this to kick in and I was up to 2x 500mg per day.

Well, how about that? Somebody is reading my frenzied rants!! Hah!!

Thiamine is supposed to help with sleep, according to Dr. Costantini. However he warns that all the thiamine for the day needs to be taken by 3:00pm or it can hinder your sleep. Thiamine helps your liver function and part of its many jobs is to store sugar. If your liver is working well, there should be enough sugar to keep your system working for 8 hours. However, if your liver isn't able to store enough sugar, at night when your blood sugar goes down, adrenaline will be released to tell the liver to release more sugar and if it can't then more adrenaline will be released and you'll wake up with a startle, usually around 2:00-3:00am. If you get up and drink some orange juice or some milk with a little sugar added you will be able to go back to sleep.

The warning about not taking thiamine after 3:00pm is because thiamine helps the cells to burn sugar to make energy which lowers your blood sugar. If you take thiamine in the evening or at night you will be more likely to experience low blood sugar when sleeping which will wake you up.

 

[cremes]

What kind of B1? Prosultiamine? Benfothiamine? Another kind?
Did you take it in the morning?
Is this on top of taking Energin?

Thiamin hydro chloride. It’s NOW brand tablets because I wanted to try something cheap. I take 500mg before breakfast while I’m making my tea. Then I take another 500mg after I eat lunch around noon. I take 8 drops of energin late afternoon 3x per week.

I see @mostlylurking has joined the thread. I recommend searching for her name and reading recent posts. I don’t want to hijack this thread more than I have.

 

[AinmAnseo]

Has this hurt the sleep of anyone here?