Lactate Perfered Fuel, Or Because Of Vitamin Deficiencies

[Hans]

"To move, muscles need energy in the form of ATP, adenosine triphosphate. Most people think glucose, a sugar, supplies this energy, but during intense exercise, it's too little and too slow as an energy source, forcing muscles to rely on glycogen, a carbohydrate stored inside muscle cells"

"He postulated an "intracellular lactate shuttle" that transports lactate from the cytoplasm, where lactate is produced, through the mitochondrial membrane into the interior of the mitochondria, where lactate is burned. In 2000, he showed that endurance training increased the number of lactate transporter molecules in mitochondria, evidently to speed uptake of lactate from the cytoplasm into the mitochondria for burning."
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releas...tm_campaign=ScienceDaily_TMD_1&utm_source=TMD

It doesn't make sense that the body would rather make lactate just to transport it into the mitochondria to be used as energy, whereas pyruvate could have done it right away. And proper oxidative metabolism produces 13 times more ATP than lactate.

I have also seen a study that shows that during exercise at around 70% intensity, the body produces lactate even in the presence of enough oxygen.
I think this is because there is a lack of B1 and maybe biotin, so glucose cannot enter the TCA cycle fast enough, thus it converts to lactic acid which can enter the mitochondria without being inhibited by a nutritional deficiency?
I remember @haidut mentioning once that he recommended high dose B1 to a coworker that did endurance training and it really improved his performance when he used it. So much for lactic acid being a better or prefered fuel.

I think another reason the body might want to make lactic acid, is because it converts NADH back to NAD thus improving the redox status of the cell. Again, nutritional deficiency.

I just think it's ridiculous that more studies are showing how "beneficial" lactate is and that the body prefers it over glucose, which I think is just the cause of vitamin deficiencies.

 

[Vinero]

So the best pre-workout would be high dose thiamin + biotin + carbs?
I usually eat white rice or potatoes, with orange juice before hitting the gym.
This way I get both complex carbs which covert mostly to glycogen, and simple carbs which stimulate PDH and keep lactate low.

 

[Hans]

So the best pre-workout would be high dose thiamin + biotin + carbs?
I usually eat white rice or potatoes, with orange juice before hitting the gym.
This way I get both complex carbs which covert mostly to glycogen, and simple carbs which stimulate PDH and keep lactate low.

That would be a good start yes. I would add protein to that mix, because insulin will increase tryptophan transport into the brain, while there is almost no other competing neutral amino acids to offset it. Orange juice on its own should be more than adequate to replenish both muscle and liver glycogen pre-workout.

 

[Cirion]

I think lactate is probably produced long before even 70% in some individuals, and also depends on time under tension. My health is still pretty poor so I am certain I use lactate even at 50% or even less of my max, as I have all sorts of problems if I lift even remotely hard yet. Lifting is basically impossible for me until I heal at the moment.

Nate hatch says in his book that people who are severely unhealthy are constantly generating lactic acid even without ANY exercise, even while sedentary / at rest. Nate did recommend me to take both B1 and B7 though which I'm doing now, which seems to help me a little.

It's not just vitamin deficiency but also the overall health of the individual. I doubt I can workout at even 70% of my max even if I took b1/b7 before hand, sadly. These days I can only tolerate a few sets at 30-50% of my max without taking a beating to my metabolic rate.

I definitely agree glucose is the preferred fuel, unfortunately in a deranged metabolism the glucose pathway is damaged and doesn't work properly and a little hack like taking B1 beforehand probably only really works for someone otherwise healthy, at least when it comes to being able to handle the bigger loads (>70%). I may still try taking some B1+B7 before the next time I hit the gym though to test this out. Can't hurt.

 

[Hans]

Nate did recommend me to take both B1 and B7 though which I'm doing now, which seems to help me a little.

What doses are you taking? 600mg B1 is very effective at reducing fatigue in patients with Hashimoto's thyroiditis.
Thiamine and Hashimoto's thyroiditis: a report of three cases. - PubMed - NCBI
"As the administration of thiamine led to a partial or complete regression of the fatigue and related disorders"

I agree, when the metabolism is damaged, strenuous exercise can make it worse, but still staying active, such as walking in nature can be very beneficial.

 

[TripleOG]

In the past, I used to always think eating high protein (north of 150g) was what reduced the "got hit by a bus" feeling after training. After discovering Peat and doing some experimentation, I realize it was thiamine that helped the most in this area

These days, I emphasize thiamine intake (especially around exercise) and feel great.

 

[Hans]

In the past, I used to always think eating high protein (north of 150g) was what reduced the "got hit by a bus" feeling after training. After discovering Peat and doing some experimentation, I realize it was thiamine that helped the most in this area

These days, I emphasize thiamine intake (especially around exercise) and feel great.

Cool. How much do you use?

 

[TripleOG]

Cool. How much do you use?

300mg/day in divided doses.

Haven't tried high dose. May be worth a trail.
Thiamine Reduces Both Lactate And Ammonia