Lack Of Motitvation Energy

slayers

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Oct 28, 2012
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I been following a peat based diet / supplement / hormone plan for awhile and once in awhile i feel good but usually i feel tired and very unmotitvated
I take thyroid, preg., DHEA, vit E, zinc, HCG
breakfast:
Coffee, orange juice, coconut oil, liver, gelatin, coconut sugar
lunch: salt, orange juice, gelatin
dinner: meat, potatoes, rice
dessert: hagen daz ice cream
 

Adnada

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Dec 12, 2013
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slayers said:
I been following a peat based diet / supplement / hormone plan for awhile and once in awhile i feel good but usually i feel tired and very unmotitvated
I take thyroid, preg., DHEA, vit E, zinc, HCG
breakfast:
Coffee, orange juice, coconut oil, liver, gelatin, coconut sugar
lunch: salt, orange juice, gelatin
dinner: meat, potatoes, rice
dessert: hagen daz ice cream

Ray mentioned in an interview several of his friends having a huge and almost immediate turnaround in mood and ambition with pregnenalone. He has also mentioned that it is easy to take too much DHEA, and that an excess converts into estrogen. He said that he generally recommends pregnenalone rather than DHEA for this reason.

Also, I would be sure to eat enough calories/protein, (one of my challenges). Light therapy may help as well. I know my energy is quite high in the summer, and dips down very low in the winter. So far, I have not supplemented with enough light to combat this, but it is seems to be a part of my puzzle.
 

Mittir

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Feb 20, 2013
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I do not know if RP recommends HCG.
In article "Progesterone Pregnenolone & DHEA" he warned
against using large dose of DHEA. He thinks a 50 yr old can take 4 mg
of DHEA to reach youthful level and thyroid and pregnenolone are the safe way to
increase DHEA. In other places he mentioned 2-5 mg DHEA as safe dose.
He does not recommend regular use of zinc supplement.
Your diet looks quite healthy. Gut irritation can be a source
of many health issues. Pectin in OJ, Gelatin, Starch all can
feed bad bacteria. You can try removing these foods for few days.
Here is a RP quote on coconut sugar
Ray Peat wrote:
If it's browned from heating, it's more likely to be allergenic, and even without too much heat, some people are likely to be allergic to it. But if it doesn't cause any reactions, then it's very good, with some nutritional value.
Honey is in some ways better than white sugar, but depending on the plants it's derived from, it can be allergenic. White sugar has the advantage of being very clean. Fruits have many valuable nutrients, so are the best way to get sugars, when good ones are available.
I do not see any major source of calcium in your diet. Ratio of calcium to phosphorus
is very important. You can use cronometer to find out this ratio and intake of all the nutrients.
Meat and liver both are very high in phosphorus. You can use egg shell powder ,
oyster shell powder or slaked lime. I find eggshell allergenic .
I Add acid ( vinegar or lemon juice) to Slaked lime
( Calcium Hydroxide) to make my own calcium supplement.
I feel really bad when i eat a lot of meat without good amount of calcium.
RP recommends 1200-2000 mg of calcium . I try to get more calcium then phosphorus.
Vitamin D helps a lot with lowering PTH.
RP recommends eating most of the protein before sunset.
You can eat carb, fat and some protein for dinner.
Any Cheese, (farmer's cheese is quite safe) with carb is good before bed.
If your metabolism is low all the liquid can make things worse.
Checking pulse and temperature 1-2 hours after breakfast gives a good
idea about your thyroid status. You can experiment with lowering fluid for few days.
Daily carrot salad, once or twice a day is very beneficial.
 

slayers

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Oct 28, 2012
Messages
165
THanx... Do you still use the light thearpy in the summer months? ( i have a somewhat outdoor job)

I will increase my calcium via skim milk or egg shell calcium.. I guess calcium carbonate is an acceptable supplement?
Also, if liquids is a problem what about sipping just small amounts of liquids with good amounts of salt?
I make fresh presssed OJ daily then i strain it... usually between 40-60ounces daily

Im going to try that natural thyroid from pimpom product, hoping this helps

Id say 50-70% of my diet is liquid based.
 

Mittir

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Feb 20, 2013
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2,034
One of the purpose of light therapy after sunset is to suppress rise in cortisol.
Ratio of red to blue light is much better in regular incandescent and brooding lamps
than sunlight around noon. 250 watt of regular incandescent is not that hot and short
period of light exposure is enough to get major benefits.
You can also use red LED.
Milk has a lot of phosphorus, milk will improve calcium to phosphorus ratio.
Some pure calcium is needed to reach 1 to 1 ratio.
Calcium carbonate is a good source of calcium. But you need to think
about the quality of commercial supplement. Check toxinless.com for
list of good quality calcium supplement.
Working outdoor, physical activity, surrounding temperature
are big factor in fluid intake. Salt increases ability to handle extra fluid.
But the best approach is to just try low fluid diet for a day or two to
see how you feel. Sipping liquid protects against stress reaction of gut.
But this will not solve the problem if you are drinking more than your
metabolic rate.
 

Adnada

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Dec 12, 2013
Messages
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Mittir said:
One of the purpose of light therapy after sunset is to suppress rise in cortisol.
Ratio of red to blue light is much better in regular incandescent and brooding lamps
than sunlight around noon. 250 watt of regular incandescent is not that hot and short
period of light exposure is enough to get major benefits.
You can also use red LED.
Milk has a lot of phosphorus, milk will improve calcium to phosphorus ratio.
Some pure calcium is needed to reach 1 to 1 ratio.
Calcium carbonate is a good source of calcium. But you need to think
about the quality of commercial supplement. Check toxinless.com for
list of good quality calcium supplement.
Working outdoor, physical activity, surrounding temperature
are big factor in fluid intake. Salt increases ability to handle extra fluid.
But the best approach is to just try low fluid diet for a day or two to
see how you feel. Sipping liquid protects against stress reaction of gut.
But this will not solve the problem if you are drinking more than your
metabolic rate.

I just began light therapy this winter, but will likely use some in the evenings come summer for the cortisol suppression Mittir mentioned.

Mittir, could you speak a little more to the effects of liquids and gut stress? Does too large a quantity absorb too quickly, or stretch the intestine? Are the symptoms of too much liquid intake an increase in hypothyroid symptoms? Thanks.
 
J

j.

Guest
I'm not sure I buy this idea about avoiding liquid to avoid gut stress. If you don't consume liquids you would consume solids, which can also stress the gut.
 

Adnada

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j. said:
I'm not sure I buy this idea about avoiding liquid to avoid gut stress. If you don't consume liquids you would consume solids, which can also stress the gut.
I do recall Ray saying that a certain quantity (a quart?) of water at one time can cause a surge in serotonin, though I don't think he went into the mechanisms behind it in the interview. I am wondering if it has to do with the speed of absorption, but that is speculation.
 

Mittir

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@Adnada
There is a RP article on " Water" that explains all these in detail.
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/water.shtml
He mentioned in a KMUD interview( He has 2-3 KMUD interviews
on salt and edema) that a low thyroid person have problem with excess
fluid. Just a pint of water passing through intestine causes increase in serotonin.
I do not remember the exact mechanism. It causes some kind of stress.
Hypothyroid people are low in Albumin and sodium.
Body needs these to bind water. With low salt and albumin
water leaves blood and gets into tissue. This is why hypothyroid
people need large amount of salt to prevent water retention.
Protein intake is associated with albumin level.
This is probably why RP put so much emphasis on 80 grams of protein.
In another interview he mentioned a person with healthy thyroid
can have 2 quart more fluid than the water lost in urine.
They lose about 2 quart of water through skin and lungs.
Hypothyroid people lose most of the water through kidney.
 
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I have your same problem, the only real solution I have found is eliminating meals and going pure milk/oj/carrot/liver/oyster. At least four servings of coffee, at least one spoon of sugar per serving. It's crucial that you are one-hundred percent sure that you are overfeeding, ideally by a small increase in body fat. The thyroid helped early on but I still got the "lying in bed after the alarm" syndrome after a while. I routinely sleep twelve hours because of how comfy it is. When I am desperate for motivation I take some acetyl-carnitine (anti-thyroid). What I recommend is playing with the following: low level sports, going to sleep before midnight, some active carbon twice a week before bed, and a little cyproheptadine.
 

Jib

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Mar 20, 2013
Messages
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Upping my protein intake helped me a lot. I also feel best when I'm using gelatin to balance out animal protein, as opposed to relying mostly on gelatin alone.

Cutting back on my fluid intake *OR* balancing out my fluid intake with higher amounts of salt has helped me a lot too. I really go to town with the salt.

However, even with added salt, I generally don't do well with orange juice in the morning, and even mid-day I struggle with it. Later on in the day, maybe starting around 4 or 5 or so, I can tolerate orange juice much better.

I make coffee with a bunch of cream and sugar/maple syrup, some gelatin and coconut oil -- and occasionally I'll add in a good shot of cocoa powder. The coffee drink I make is very rich, and I find that I do fine with that in the morning and afternoon.

I almost never drink water. Even small amounts, like a cup or even a half a cup, tend to make my hands freezing cold and it gives me brain fog and exhaustion. I only drink when I'm thirsty, and then I always go for coffee or orange juice, and a lot of times I'll add salt, gelatin, and some mineral drops to the orange juice to help balance it out. Orange juice + baking soda is also one of my favorites and I generally heavily prefer it to straight orange juice, as I generally feel better when I drink that instead.

Getting plenty of calories is very important, as has already been mentioned here. This is another advantage of drinking very rich beverages instead of plain water, and if you're already drinking things like juice and coffee instead of water, experimenting with higher amounts of cream/sweetener.

I have to stay regular with my meals, or I go off into mood swings and fatigue almost immediately. And they have to be sizable and satisfying. Think: homemade fish and chips with a big root beer float. Fry everything up in coconut oil, use filler-free ice cream.

This is one reason I want to get back into cooking. Planning ahead and making food so you'll have something to eat for the rest of the week is a huge advantage. I find if I'm tired, I don't feel like cooking and ironically I'm much more likely to end up eating far less than I would otherwise, so I stay tired and feeling weak and exhausted.

But yeah, adequate protein and calories always seem to make the most immediately noticeable difference to me in my mood and energy.
 

slayers

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UPdate

Breakfast:
12ounces coffee
2 tablespooons (or 32grames ) coconut sugar
10g Gelatin
10g Coconut oil
20-40g liver Powder
12ounces Orange juice

Lunch:
40ounces Orange juice (2-3x a week i'll use whole raw milk)
15g Gelatin
40g Whey protein

Dinner: 8-10ounces of meat (usually gound beef or pastured chicken, possibly pork sometimes)
200grams of rice or potatoe

Snack: 100-200g of ice cream (usually talenti gelato or turkey hill brand or frozen greek yogurt)
snack: dried fruit usually a serving
weekends: is pretty much the same except my lunch is usually a solid meal based on meat / starch
Once a week I have pizza , beer or some other alcohol and I will have various other foods like chips, etc.

Supplements:
3 grains Thyroid
75mg DHEA
150mg Preg.
Zinc, Vit E, Creatine
 

Blossom

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Nov 23, 2013
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Sometimes I wonder if what we are experiencing sometimes is the newfound ability to relax for the first time in a long time. I'm motivated but at the same time it is so nice to not be so driven by excessive stress that I do enjoy just sort of lounging around. It is the end of a long, cold and dark winter here so I'm sure my energy will pick up but I know this is nothing like the fatigue I had for years or the stress hormones I ran off of during my paleo days. I'm quite enjoying the peace of it all really. It's tricky because so many people in society are living off stimulant drugs like adderall that it seems those of us who aren't are the odd ones. I'd rather be this way-calm, serene and peaceful. Maybe we just aren't super stressed anymore and in a culture that is very stressed it may seem like a lack of motivation. Those are just a few thoughts I had on this topic that I thought might be worth sharing.
 

pboy

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Jan 22, 2013
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I think youre totally right. And a lot of people have to overwork and be in like a hyper robot mode at their job just to get through the day...no chance of completely calm, logical conversation and discussion of betterment and change, or no time for self reflection, self improvement. Its kind of sad, but youre definitely right. We actually function better, reflect and converse better, and grow and evolve quicker and better when we are relaxed. That should be a priority for all of us in our lives...and as a society, we should accommodate for this. Whats the point in any kind of growth or super structure with a faulty foundation? A system and foundation that ultimately doesn't lead to happiness, that will eventually collapse prematurely? Theres actually a nation...Bhutan I think it is, that doesn't measure gross national product, but instead gross national happiness. If you actually think about it, that's the most important thing...and everything else should be in place and designed around that
 

Mittir

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75 mg of DHEA is an extremely high dose.
RP has mentioned that people get enlarged liver using
high dose of DHEA. He recommends 2-5 mg of DHEA
with some oil (olive oil, butter, coconut oil), this lowers
the possibility of liver damage. In one email exchange
he recommended someone upto 10 mg of DHEA being safe for male.
RP himself experimented with only few mg of DHEA and had great results.
You are eating a lot of high phosphorus foods and no major source of calcium.
RP has mentioned that high meat diet can cause phosphorus poisoning.
You can add egg shell powder, oyster shell powder or calcium carbonate supplement.
Adding milk will improve the ratio, but milk has a lot of phosphorus too.
You can use cronometer.com to get good idea about your nutrient intake.
Is that 40 oz of OJ for lunch?
RP recommends against dried whey as they are high in trytophan and
oxidized cholesterol and oxidized fragile amino acids.
RP also recommends eating most of the protein during day
and mostly carb and fat after sunset.
10 oz of meat for dinner is very high in protein.
Tryptophan in meat can cause sleep problem.
RP mentioned that coconut sugar can be allergenic.
 

slayers

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Yes 40oz of juice throughout the day usually

I try to get 1g of protein per pound of bodyweight...

I take DHEA based on DHEA and DHEA-S blood tests.. Nothing under 50mg effects serum, it took about 75mg to get an increase in serum...

I could lower my meat / whey intake and increase my milk and gelatin intake...If i increase my milk then i will probably drink raw skim milk because I dont like the extra fat... I try to get around 50-60g of fat a day, 175g protein and usually 300+ carbs a day
 

Mittir

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40 oz of juice is a lot of fluid. Fluid intake should be matched with
metabolic rate, physical activity, surrounding temperature etc.
A person with good thyroid function can lose
through lungs and skin 2 quart of more fluid than lost in urine .
Hypothyroid condition can get worse with excess fluid.
Increasing salt intake helps with handling extra fluid.
I think it would be a good idea to experiment with low fluid
diet for few days and see how it feels.
You can also use cheese ( home made farmer's cheese is safer)
instead of milk if you opt for low fluid diet.
Here is a quote from RP's article on DHEA.

Ray Peat said:
Young people produce about 12 to 15 milligrams of DHEA per day, and that amount decreases by about 2 mg. per day for every decade after the age of 30. This is one of the reasons that young people eat more without getting fat, and tolerate cold weather better: DHEA, like the thyroid hormone, increases our heat production and ability to burn calories. At the age of 50, about 4 mg. of DHEA per day will usually restore the level of DHEA in the blood to a youthful level. It is important to avoid taking more than needed, since some people (especially if they are deficient in progesterone, pregnenolone, or thyroid) can turn the excess into estrogen or testosterone, and large amounts of those sex hormones can disturb the function of the thymus gland and the liver.http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/three-hormones.shtml
 

slayers

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I have to disagree with PEAT on that amount restoring blood levels (not that it cant i just never seen anyone ever doing it myself)... I never seen anyone restore DHEA-S levels with less than 20mg DHEA... He's not saying large amount of DHEA is necessarily harmful, just that high amounts are more likely to convert into estrogens which is harmful.

Having said that I routinely test my estrogen and they are within normal range. Plus I dont seem to suffer any high estrogen symptoms. Plus preg. increases progesterone which would help keep e2 in check I take a micronized DHEA which is less likely to be converted into estrogens.
But I do know a lot of men that experience bad estorgen effects from DHEA.. BUt they just suffer with low serum levels instead of battling high estrogen

Also I never really noticed much of a benefit from actually taking DHEA and increasing my levels so maybe it would be best to stop taking DHEA

40ounce of juice means im not drinking any water... But during the summer 40oz of juice + gallon of water is what I need to make it through a day of work in the summer. I workout side and have a physical job, Based on my other coworkers this seems pretty normal for the amount of fluid we need... I need that much fluid
I usually put in about 10g of salt into my 40ounce juice
 
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