L-Valine To Lower Serotonin Without Lowering Dopamine?

[griesburner]

Hey guys,

I would like to ask if anyone has experience with supplementing just L-Valine instead of whole BCAA's.
The problem with BCAA's is that you need tyrosine to compensate for the dopamine-lowering effect.
I am not sure, but i thought the dopamine-lowering effect was just from the L-Leucine?
Anyway, i found this two studies which show, that L-Valine alone is able to lower 5-HT (serotonin):

Thieme E-Journals - International Journal of Sports Medicine / Abstract

Evidence that the large neutra l amino acid l-va line decreases e lectrica l ly-evoked re lease of 5-HT in rat hippocampus in vivo


But i coudn't find an answer, if L-Valine also lowers dopamine or not.

So maybe instead of taking all BCAA's + Tyrosine, taking L-Valine is enough to lower serotonin without lowering dopamine? Would be nice, cause i can't tolerate Tyrosine. And i heard Tyrosine is only safe when you have enough sun exposure, and during winter times here in Germany thats not always possible :/ so i was looking for an alternative

 

[Vinero]

This would be great if true.
I haven't been able to make BCAAs work long-term.
The first 2 days of using BCAAs gives me a great anti-serotonin effect but
the dopamine lowering effects becomes too strong after these initial 2 days of using BCAAs.
I am definitely going to look further into this.
Also we must find out if valine doesn't have any negative side effects when supplemented by itself.

 

[Vinero]

"Neuro- endocrine experiments reported by Joseph and Kennett (1983) also suggested that administration of VAL decreases 5-HT release in the brain....
...Interestingly, the effect of VAL was not reversed by co-administration of the catecholamine precursor tyrosine, which shares the same transport mechanism.
This finding was taken to suggest a selective effect of VAL on 5-HT function."

 

[Hans]

Valine is also a large neutral amino acid like leucine and should therefor still compete with tyrosine for uptake in the brain. Maybe valine just has properties of it's own. The thing with BCAA is that now you have 3 large neutral amino acids competing for uptake, but if you only take valine, that competition is reduced.

 

[griesburner]

the next question would be how much valine was needed to have an effect. i only found one supplement via amazon who selles 400mg capsules and they recommend to take 2 a day. So only 800mg. But on empty stomach could be effective maybe. I think i will try it

Valine is also a large neutral amino acid like leucine and should therefor still compete with tyrosine for uptake in the brain. Maybe valine just has properties of it's own. The thing with BCAA is that now you have 3 large neutral amino acids competing for uptake, but if you only take valine, that competition is reduced

So l-valine would have a serotonin and dopamine lowering effect like bcaa but not as strong? so if thats true it would be useless i guess. sad^^ Or did i understand it wrong?

 

[Hans]

Due to less compitition, more tyrosine can cross the blood brain barrier, while valine also antagonists serotonin, so I think the end result would be much more dopaminergic. The same would be for eating meat as now tyrosine/phenylalanine and tryptophan have to compete with a lot of other amino acid for uptake in the brain. Haidut said if he uses BCAA with a protein meal it gives him the same effect as the BCAA + tyrosine combo. Tryptophan is in much lower concentrations in food than tyrosine and phenylalanine. For example, 100g beef rump has 0.8g phenylalanine, 0.7g tyrosine and just 0.2g tryptophan. Just eating meat will have a more dopaminergic effect in general. It's carbs/insulin that increases the tryptophan ratio as insulin increase amino acid uptake in tissue except tryptophan and then there is more tryptophan for the brain. This effect can be offset by as little as 2.5-4% protein though.
So I guess BCAA + tyrosine combo would be most effective on an empty stomach, and if you're looking for something else that BCAA, I think valine would fit the bill.

 

[griesburner]

thanks that makes sense :)

It's carbs/insulin that increases the tryptophan ratio as insulin increase amino acid uptake in tissue except tryptophan and then there is more tryptophan for the brain.

so a meal with only sugar/carb without protein will be worse than some protein wich contains tryptophan, right?

But thats something i think i do wrong all the time. On one hand i think sugar is good to supress stress hormones and is pro-peat but without protein it will be more bad than fasting cause of the increase in tryptophan in blood? For example i often drink tea during the day. But only fluid on empty stomach would be bad, so i add honey. But that would be sugar without protein then and in turn increase serotonin. But i like my tea and cant tolerate gelatin or glycine which i could add to my tea. And i have no other idea except eating a small meal with every tea but that would be too much. So maybe a valine pill would be a solution then?

 

[Hans]

Yes that's it. Also going too long without protein can increase cortisol (even in the presence of sugar/carbs) to break down tissue to provide amino acids. This can further increase circulating tryptophan which can make the problem worse. So maybe valine can help, but maybe another protein source would also be great/better for e.g. milk. If you are eating at least three good meals with protein spaced out during the day, then I think your protein will be fine and don't have to worry about muscle catabolism, and not so much about the honey in your tea either.
Do you feel serotonin symptoms from just drinking tea with honey?

 

[griesburner]

Do you feel serotonin symptoms from just drinking tea with honey?

No i dont feel any worse, but theoretically i maybe overthought it a bit :) So after my evening meal i have floating around enough protein for hours so that my single carb "meal" honey-tea will not make any difference, right? Yes milk with honey would be nice for replacing a tea in the evening. But i always have to have something hot to drink during the day to feel good I hate to refrigerate orange juice. Its way too cold of a drink during the winter times for me ^^.

 

[Hans]

But i always have to have something hot to drink during the day to feel good

I feel the same, as I always drink coffee during the day. I don't think you have to worry about the tea and honey. If your nutrition is good and you feel good, I don't think there's anything to worry about.

 

[Vinero]

Just add one sip of milk to the tea and honey. That should be enough protein to prevent tryptophan getting to the brain.

 

[griesburner]

Just add one sip of milk to the tea and honey. That should be enough protein to prevent tryptophan getting to the

lol so simple but i havent thought about that . good idea thanks. But i have to test if it tastes good with my different tea's. I mostly drink herbal teas like cistus, valerian, etc so not the classical black or green tea. Cause in the evening i dont tolerate caffeine so well :) Otherwise i would drink coffee all day long as i like the taste and naturally drink my coffe with milk.

 

[johnwester130]

did anybody try this?