L-lysine - Serotonin Antagonist

[kineticz]

Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me

on the topic of serotonin, i was interested in your remark to someone on another thread: You have very prolactin and noradrenaline colour to your eyes. I notice when my serotonin and dopamine are high, when I'm happy, my eyes turn blue. When I'm chronically depleted, defensive, pessimistic, let down by people to do the simplest of tasks (which is common in business), my eye colour seems to turn hazel/green.

just interested in the idea that serotonin (or is it dopamine, or both) affects eye color. when i took cyproheptadine in the fall, i thought i noticed something different. this was before i had the idea it could affect eye color in any way. it was after i noticed that i tried to find something about it online. and when i stopped taking it, also thought i noticed a difference (back to how they looked before). now that i've been on it two weeks again, i feel it is causing the same subtle effect to my eyes.

So i was interested that you noticed it in yourself as well. Although did you mean when serotonin is low and dopamine is high?

Hi Peata.

When my dopamine is high, my eyes turn blue. When my dopamine is depleted, prolactin and noradrenaline are raised, my eyes turn hazel green. When my serotonin is high, my pupils dilate and colour is not noticeable as much as the other two types.

I find that serotonin dosing CAN influence dopamine levels, because dopamine is converted downstream into stress hormones, and if serotonin counteracts this it can also lead to blue eyes and good mood. But this is very tricky. I have managed rarely in the past to increase this blueness and mood with 5HTP trying to help my sleep, before I came across Ray Peat. We all want to maximise our vitality via dopamine, but the problems arise when it gets beta-hydroxylased downstream.

 

[haidut]

Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me

on the topic of serotonin, i was interested in your remark to someone on another thread: You have very prolactin and noradrenaline colour to your eyes. I notice when my serotonin and dopamine are high, when I'm happy, my eyes turn blue. When I'm chronically depleted, defensive, pessimistic, let down by people to do the simplest of tasks (which is common in business), my eye colour seems to turn hazel/green.

just interested in the idea that serotonin (or is it dopamine, or both) affects eye color. when i took cyproheptadine in the fall, i thought i noticed something different. this was before i had the idea it could affect eye color in any way. it was after i noticed that i tried to find something about it online. and when i stopped taking it, also thought i noticed a difference (back to how they looked before). now that i've been on it two weeks again, i feel it is causing the same subtle effect to my eyes.

So i was interested that you noticed it in yourself as well. Although did you mean when serotonin is low and dopamine is high?

Hi Peata.

When my dopamine is high, my eyes turn blue. When my dopamine is depleted, prolactin and noradrenaline are raised, my eyes turn hazel green. When my serotonin is high, my pupils dilate and colour is not noticeable as much as the other two types.

I find that serotonin dosing CAN influence dopamine levels, because dopamine is converted downstream into stress hormones, and if serotonin counteracts this it can also lead to blue eyes and good mood. But this is very tricky. I have managed rarely in the past to increase this blueness and mood with 5HTP trying to help my sleep, before I came across Ray Peat. We all want to maximise our vitality via dopamine, but the problems arise when it gets beta-hydroxylased downstream.

Clonidine is an adrenalin antagonist and vitamin B6 is both a cortisol and adrenalin antagonist. So, using one or both could help reduce the downstream effects of dopamine metabolism. I posted threads on both substances, so if you are interested just search the forum. Finally, vitamin B6 is also a dopamine "receptor" agonist and will reduce prolactin, especially if you use the activated version P5P. So, it seems that with vitamin B6 alone you get high dopamine and low cortisol/adrenalin. However, I did experience its effects of lowering stress hormones when you need them and it was not pleasant. You feel like the situation is overwhelming and you can't muster up the strength to overcome it (low cortisol/adrenalin) even though you are brimming with motivation to do it (high dopamine).

 

[haidut]

and the human studies used 6g daily, which suggests that this is the effective dose for NO inhibition.

haidut-
This is a walloping dose, of course.
Do you have any idea if it would be more effective to take that all at once,
or spread out throughout the day...?

With your serotonin-depleting method
you advise having a protein meal with the aminos you recommend.
Would this line of thinking apply to lysine, do you think?

I took 9g yesterday as a test, in divided doses and it basically had the same gut effects on me as cyproheptadine - i.e. I was able to eat food so spicy that would normally make me wiggle in bed all night from discomfort. However, cyproheptadine makes me tired while lysine actually perked me up and gave me the same eye clarity that I get from ondansetron. So, the studies seem legit - lysine seems to act on multiple serotonin "receptors".
Today I took 6g in one sitting and it made me extremely calm - to the point of not really caring about anything, which may or may not be good.
So, I think 3g in one dose is proably enough for most purposes, and the dose can be repeated several times a day if needed.
Btw, since studies say lysine primary effect in lower doses is antagonizing the 5-HT4 "receptor" it may be a great option for people struggling with gut issues. Antagonizing the 5-HT4 receptor is also good for treating heart failure, and this matches well the one study I posted on lysine reporting better heart function and stronger contractions. For comparison, here is a pharma drug that supposedly has the same effects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piboserod

As far as combining with other protein - if you are looking to antagonize serotonin then probably best to take on its own. Protein has arginine, which will compete with lysine and lower its effectiveness. However, if the goal is to lower NO, then take with protein to limit arginine uptake. I guess you can do both for bigger effect - take with protein to antagonize arginine uptake, and take on its own to inhibit NO and antagonize serotonin. I think some of the studies I posted showed lysine being NO synthase inhibitor independently of it blocking arginine uptake. Combining lysine with things like zinc, MB, and magnesium one may be able to blast NO completely out of the system...but I don't know if that would be desirable or safe. Maybe only warranted in conditions like cancer.

 

[narouz]

and the human studies used 6g daily, which suggests that this is the effective dose for NO inhibition.

haidut-
This is a walloping dose, of course.
Do you have any idea if it would be more effective to take that all at once,
or spread out throughout the day...?

With your serotonin-depleting method
you advise having a protein meal with the aminos you recommend.
Would this line of thinking apply to lysine, do you think?

I took 9g yesterday as a test, in divided doses and it basically had the same gut effects on me as cyproheptadine - i.e. I was able to eat food so spicy that would normally make me wiggle in bed all night from discomfort. However, cyproheptadine makes me tired while lysine actually perked me up and gave me the same eye clarity that I get from ondansetron. So, the studies seem legit - lysine seems to act on multiple serotonin "receptors".
Today I took 6g in one sitting and it made me extremely calm - to the point of not really caring about anything, which may or may not be good.
So, I think 3g in one dose is proably enough for most purposes, and the dose can be repeated several times a day if needed.
Btw, since studies say lysine primary effect in lower doses is antagonizing the 5-HT4 "receptor" it may be a great option for people struggling with gut issues. Antagonizing the 5-HT4 receptor is also good for treating heart failure, and this matches well the one study I posted on lysine reporting better heart function and stronger contractions. For comparison, here is a pharma drug that supposedly has the same effects.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piboserod

As far as combining with other protein - if you are looking to antagonize serotonin then probably best to take on its own. Protein has arginine, which will compete with lysine and lower its effectiveness. However, if the goal is to lower NO, then take with protein to limit arginine uptake. I guess you can do both for bigger effect - take with protein to antagonize arginine uptake, and take on its own to inhibit NO and antagonize serotonin. I think some of the studies I posted showed lysine being NO synthase inhibitor independently of it blocking arginine uptake. Combining lysine with things like zinc, MB, and magnesium one may be able to blast NO completely out of the system...but I don't know if that would be desirable or safe. Maybe only warranted in conditions like cancer.

Thanks haidut.
I'll try some similarly high doses tomorrow.
Great research!

 

[kineticz]

Awesome guys.

 

[kineticz]

However, I did experience its effects of lowering stress hormones when you need them and it was not pleasant. You feel like the situation is overwhelming and you can't muster up the strength to overcome it (low cortisol/adrenalin) even though you are brimming with motivation to do it (high dopamine).

This is the same response I get to relatively high doses of B6 (100mg+)

A feeling of tension and willingness to do things but simply not enough energy to power your mind and muscles.

 

[haidut]

However, I did experience its effects of lowering stress hormones when you need them and it was not pleasant. You feel like the situation is overwhelming and you can't muster up the strength to overcome it (low cortisol/adrenalin) even though you are brimming with motivation to do it (high dopamine).

This is the same response I get to relatively high doses of B6 (100mg+)

A feeling of tension and willingness to do things but simply not enough energy to power your mind and muscles.

Short term supplementation can be very helpful though for lowering prolactin and preventing muscle damage. If you do a lot of running, taking 50mg B6 can result in essentially no muscle damage and increased performance due to higher dopamine.
Long term, 10mg is a much better dose and it won't mess with cortisol and adrenalin that much.

 

[kineticz]

However, I did experience its effects of lowering stress hormones when you need them and it was not pleasant. You feel like the situation is overwhelming and you can't muster up the strength to overcome it (low cortisol/adrenalin) even though you are brimming with motivation to do it (high dopamine).

This is the same response I get to relatively high doses of B6 (100mg+)

A feeling of tension and willingness to do things but simply not enough energy to power your mind and muscles.

Short term supplementation can be very helpful though for lowering prolactin and preventing muscle damage. If you do a lot of running, taking 50mg B6 can result in essentially no muscle damage and increased performance due to higher dopamine.
Long term, 10mg is a much better dose and it won't mess with cortisol and adrenalin that much.

Thanks, Can B6 be obtained from foods?

 

[haidut]

However, I did experience its effects of lowering stress hormones when you need them and it was not pleasant. You feel like the situation is overwhelming and you can't muster up the strength to overcome it (low cortisol/adrenalin) even though you are brimming with motivation to do it (high dopamine).

This is the same response I get to relatively high doses of B6 (100mg+)

A feeling of tension and willingness to do things but simply not enough energy to power your mind and muscles.

Short term supplementation can be very helpful though for lowering prolactin and preventing muscle damage. If you do a lot of running, taking 50mg B6 can result in essentially no muscle damage and increased performance due to higher dopamine.
Long term, 10mg is a much better dose and it won't mess with cortisol and adrenalin that much.

Thanks, Can B6 be obtained from foods?

Yes, but probably not in doses that would impact prolactin/dopamine and/or cortisol/adrenalin in a big way.
Here is more info:
http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Vitami ... sional/#h3

 

[TeslaFan]

I am not sure either, someone else said that on the forum and we have had several threads lately that say cypro gives them the zombie feeling due to reduced dopamine. However, looking at the wikipedia page for cypro I see that it is an actual antagonist on some dopamine "receptors" and if it does reduce dopamine the antagonism on the dopamine receptors is probably the reason. Finally, if something were to reduce dopamine I'd expect it to increase prolactin, which cypro does NOT do. Search the forum for "cyproheptadine dopamin" and "cyproheptadine prolactin" for more info.

I noticed this being mentioned on the forum, too. Cyproheptadine is a moderate antagonist at Dopamine 3 receptor, but following wikipedia article on Serotonin 2C receptor I found this research suggesting that activating Serotonin 2C receptor inhibits release of Dopamine in certain areas of the brain:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15668911

Cyproheptadine is antagonizing Serotonin 2C receptor much stronger than it antagonizes Dopamine 3 receptor.

 

[chris]

You feel like the situation is overwhelming and you can't muster up the strength to overcome it (low cortisol/adrenalin) even though you are brimming with motivation to do it (high dopamine).

Wow, I have had this feeling so many times yet never seen it written down like this. Is low cortisol and adrenalin not a positive thing? What can we do to keep the motivation but reduce the helplessness feeling?

 

[haidut]

You feel like the situation is overwhelming and you can't muster up the strength to overcome it (low cortisol/adrenalin) even though you are brimming with motivation to do it (high dopamine).

Wow, I have had this feeling so many times yet never seen it written down like this. Is low cortisol and adrenalin not a positive thing? What can we do to keep the motivation but reduce the helplessness feeling?

If metabolism is not working well for whatever reason, the body compensates with increasing the stress hormones. So, if you lower these without simultaneously restoring thyroid function then you may end up feeling exhausted / weak. I think the adrenal fatigue that so many people report is actually this - hypothyroid people relying on stress hormones somehow ending up lowering them while still being hypothyroid.
It is good to lower the stress hormones, but it has to go hand in hand with restoring thyroid.

 

[BobbyDukes]

You feel like the situation is overwhelming and you can't muster up the strength to overcome it (low cortisol/adrenalin) even though you are brimming with motivation to do it (high dopamine).

Wow, I have had this feeling so many times yet never seen it written down like this. Is low cortisol and adrenalin not a positive thing? What can we do to keep the motivation but reduce the helplessness feeling?

If metabolism is not working well for whatever reason, the body compensates with increasing the stress hormones. So, if you lower these without simultaneously restoring thyroid function then you may end up feeling exhausted / weak. I think the adrenal fatigue that so many people report is actually this - hypothyroid people relying on stress hormones somehow ending up lowering them while still being hypothyroid.
It is good to lower the stress hormones, but it has to go hand in hand with restoring thyroid.

Thanks for posting that. I've thought that myself for a long time. There's a reason why your body ramps these stress hormones up. It's not because it wants to give us a tough time; it's because our thyroid is sucking ****!This stress hormonal system is what keeps us alive if our thyroid is totally caput.

As an aside though, despite providing me with wonderful benfits, vitamin b6 (even in lower doses) gives me insane insomnia. I am currently taking a break from it.

 

[Peata]

Since lysine also antagonized opioid receptors in the GI tract, it may have some activity similar to naltrexone.

Do you think lysine could also be anti-prolactin like naltrexone?

 

[haidut]

Since lysine also antagonized opioid receptors in the GI tract, it may have some activity similar to naltrexone.

Do you think lysine could also be anti-prolactin like naltrexone?

I have not seen any studies on that, so don't know really.

 

[Peata]

Since lysine also antagonized opioid receptors in the GI tract, it may have some activity similar to naltrexone.

Do you think lysine could also be anti-prolactin like naltrexone?

I have not seen any studies on that, so don't know really.

Thank you.

I got some l-lysine yesterday but haven't taken any yet. I'm reading more on others' experiences with it. I'm currently on 2 mg. cyproheptadine, divided.

 

[Peata]

Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me, 2 x 500mg a day. I'm very sensitive to anything that lowers my stress systems currently so this response is most welcome.

Anyone tried this

I believe I've read where it can take weeks or months to build up to effect. Was it like that for you, or did it kick in after first dose?

 

[kineticz]

Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me, 2 x 500mg a day. I'm very sensitive to anything that lowers my stress systems currently so this response is most welcome.

Anyone tried this

I believe I've read where it can take weeks or months to build up to effect. Was it like that for you, or did it kick in after first dose?

I'm highly sensitive to hormones, supplements and vitamins. Has taken me a while to realise that actually, most of it is pointless, due to being so sensitive. My genetic setpoint is to maintain a low state of balance, rather than excess.

I also never attempted to directly block serotonin until now. I only tried BCAAs and that wasn't with the intention to block serotonin. In a short space of time my mood is better, but I am showing signs of adaptation, such as migraines and lines down fingernails.

Lysine reduced my anxiety after the first dose 1 x 500mg.

 

[Peata]

Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me, 2 x 500mg a day. I'm very sensitive to anything that lowers my stress systems currently so this response is most welcome.

Anyone tried this

I believe I've read where it can take weeks or months to build up to effect. Was it like that for you, or did it kick in after first dose?

I'm highly sensitive to hormones, supplements and vitamins. Has taken me a while to realise that actually, most of it is pointless, due to being so sensitive. My genetic setpoint is to maintain a low state of balance, rather than excess.

I also never attempted to directly block serotonin until now. I only tried BCAAs and that wasn't with the intention to block serotonin. In a short space of time my mood is better, but I am showing signs of adaptation, such as migraines and lines down fingernails.

Lysine reduced my anxiety after the first dose 1 x 500mg.

How is your nutrient intake? I wonder if it's possible all the l-lysine depleted something that you could replace to feel better again.

It's hard to know for sure with all these things we try to get better. Speaking of myself.

Adding: I read somewhere on the net that l-lysine can deplete B6, so that might be a place to start.

 

[kineticz]

Studies have shown lysine can inhibit serotonin in the brain and gut. It's providing great anxiety relief for me, 2 x 500mg a day. I'm very sensitive to anything that lowers my stress systems currently so this response is most welcome.

Anyone tried this

I believe I've read where it can take weeks or months to build up to effect. Was it like that for you, or did it kick in after first dose?

I'm highly sensitive to hormones, supplements and vitamins. Has taken me a while to realise that actually, most of it is pointless, due to being so sensitive. My genetic setpoint is to maintain a low state of balance, rather than excess.

I also never attempted to directly block serotonin until now. I only tried BCAAs and that wasn't with the intention to block serotonin. In a short space of time my mood is better, but I am showing signs of adaptation, such as migraines and lines down fingernails.

Lysine reduced my anxiety after the first dose 1 x 500mg.

How is your nutrient intake? I wonder if it's possible all the l-lysine depleted something that you could replace to feel better again.

It's hard to know for sure with all these things we try to get better. Speaking of myself.

Adding: I read somewhere on the net that l-lysine can deplete B6, so that might be a place to start.

Still working on nutrient intake, using advice from another thread of mine.

Deciding whether to try organic produce, and been trying to get out of bed earlier for a decent breakfast for years, with no success. Always sleep in to last minute.

I do use a great vitamin complex with the B vits, Vit K2, Vit A (retinol), vit C, vit D, vit E.